Vitamins and Minerals

[PSD]

Lots of horses don't actually need a good quality feed though hence supplementing.

agreed. I only give mine the pink mash to get the supplements down her, and it’s good for the digestive system so win win ?

 

[soloequestrian]

That is interesting but I can't see some of the micro minerals - am I just being stoopid?!

Did you look at the 'Other Nutrients' tab?

 

[palo1]

i get your point. Yet we have to consider the soil mineral profile of decades ago to now....acidic NPK wasn’t the ‘main’ fertiliser for hay fields - the hays were all mixed species low calorie hay - today, certainly in a country where cow farming is dominant you have to really search for hay that isn’t loaded with high sugar ryegrass.
The soil balance has changed and the species of grass being sown for grazing and hay fields have all changed.
Ryegrass dominates the irish hay feed and grazing market. Timothy here is a rare as rocking horse shoite!

So in the very least we balance the most affected minerals lacking - which now is magnesium out if the macro minerals and zinc/copper for the micro.
Wheat Bran is excellent for vitamin E and its a shame its not used moreso in the feed industry anymore.

I tried forageplus minerals but wasnt impressed with the price per kilo which mostly was just mag ox and sodium. I can get those minerals FAR cheaper elsewhere and really just want a good micro mineral balancer with enough copper/zinc etc and decent other minerals.

The one thing most companies add is salt/sodium to their mineral mixes, and that degrades all other minerals and shouldnt be added, ideally. Try finding one without though!!

When i get time im going to mix my own, without salt, with enough of what’s lacking in todays soil profiles and forage - so im not endlessly adding x,y,z to a balancer that never ever are ideal.

I also tried formula for feet and to be honest, no change in my horses feet - was going through terrible white line issues at the time, which ended up needing more copper,zinc and mag to the diet to resolve, so i ditched the ‘balancers’ and just bought the minerals separately.

For the price they are, most have a rubbish tiny dose per day dose - they give the amount per kilo to make it seem like its loaded, but divide it down per dose and you’ll find cheaper bagged feeds generally provide similar nutrients.

im now trying equimins advance complete pellets as they use the most bio-digestible forms of the minerals and vitamins and the dosages of them are good Compared to others. Except for magnesium. That still needs to be added. but i dont mind that, because i dont want to be spending 20+quid a kilo for a balancer thats mostly mag ox and sodium like forageplus.

In fact, this thread has given me an idea - if we all were to chip in with our research of what we would ideally want in a mineral balancer and what dosage - we could end up compiling a HHO IDEAL mineral balancer!

I love the idea of sharing our knowledge and agree with all of what you have just said PurBee!!

 

[ester]

I always forget the nrc link exists! thanks for the remind SE!

 

[Goldenstar]

Lots of horses don't actually need a good quality feed though hence supplementing.

This is so true .
Lots of horses spend their whole time on a very restricted diet .
Mine eat no prepared mixes and they get very very little hard food .
They eat grass and products made from grass that’s grown very close to here .
I know because I see the results they look better on their balancer .

 

[palo1]

Did you look at the 'Other Nutrients' tab?

Ah, I have downloaded the booklet in entirety but can't quite see what you mean so I will go back to the original link thanks! ETA - Found it!! But I still can't work out for myself how to balance against/understand the impact of iron etc. I will do more reading!!

 

[Muddywellies]

Lots of horses don't actually need a good quality feed though hence supplementing.

Deleted due to duplicated post

 

[soloequestrian]

Ah, I have downloaded the booklet in entirety but can't quite see what you mean so I will go back to the original link thanks! ETA - Found it!! But I still can't work out for myself how to balance against/understand the impact of iron etc. I will do more reading!!

I've never used the booklet, just the website. I think it would be more difficult if you have really high levels of iron - mine are quite high but I just make sure there's no additional iron coming from the feed. I'm not sure about counteracting it as opposed to not adding to it - the NRC guide wouldn't help with that, they are just giving recommended levels. The Eleanor Kellon course was very popular a few years ago for the more complex interactions, I don't know if it's still around/recommended?

 

[Muddywellies]

If anyone is interested there is a webinar this evening with Dr David Marlin on Eventbrite called 'The Truth About Equine Supplements'. Might just make things a bit clearer on the subject.

 

[ester]

I don't trust him not to be doing a sales pitch lol.

 

[milliepops]

I think there's a difference between supplements and basic nutrition though. I have 2 on a balancer - the mare with foal at foot has a stud balancer which gives her what she needs currently with good grazing, and one that doesn't need a great deal of hard feed but is in full work and less grazing.

I only have one horse that needs the recommended amount of any standard hard feed, to get the vits and mins from what is supplied in it.

I don't feed any of them supplements, but I would not consider a balancer or something like equimins a supplement, to me it's just their standard diet.

and yes, with you on the sales pitch, ester!

 

[MuddyMonster]

(Off topic sorry) I have an unopened bag of Alleviate-C which I don’t need. If you still use it I can sell it to you discounted from the CHH price. i can send photos

Thank you for your kind offer - I'm good at the moment as I bought some very recently

 

[Muddywellies]

I don't trust him not to be doing a sales pitch lol.

Hmm you have a point there. I watched the webinar on gastric ulcers. All very useful and interesting but at the end, pushing their Science Supplements. Still, if you can filter out the sales stuff then they do give some useful info.

 

[soloequestrian]

David Marlin is a researcher though, he doesn't work for a specific company so presumably has nothing to 'push' other than evidence-based information.

 

[criso]

I tried forageplus minerals but wasnt impressed with the price per kilo which mostly was just mag ox and sodium. I can get those minerals FAR cheaper elsewhere and really just want a good micro mineral balancer with enough copper/zinc etc and decent other minerals.

Not sure where you get that from, their basic winter balancer provides

Each 100 grams contains:
28.89 grams of micronised linseed
10 grams lysine
5 grams phosphorous (mono-sodium phosphate)
12 grams magnesium (magnesium oxide)
400 mg copper (bioplex)
1200mg zinc (bioplex)
2mg iodine (calcium iodate)
1 mg selenium (yeast)
5 grams salt
2000 iu vitamin E oil

In fact I know some independent nutritionists don't recommend it because it is higher than the RDA of Copper and Zinc.

I did an Excel comparison some years back , I might share it if it's not too out of date. I had Equivita, Forageplus and Progressive Earth Interestingly the main forageplus and progressive earth ones were almost identical in proportions. The key difference was the recommended dose which was double in the case of forageplus. If you adjusted for this they were about the same pirce.

Since then they both have added extra products and versions. The PE Pro Balance strikes me as a good budget option as it uses sulphate/oxide forms of copper and zinc which are much cheaper than the bioplex and are less bulky so may be easier to get into fussy horses.

 

[milliepops]

David Marlin is a researcher though, he doesn't work for a specific company so presumably has nothing to 'push' other than evidence-based information.

I guess maybe you have not heard of Science Supplements

The very first Science Supplements products were the brainchild of Dr David Marlin, a scientist with 25 years’ experience in the horse industry who has worked with the FEI, IOC and as a consultant to the British Equestrian Teams since 1994.

Author of books and over 200 scientific papers Dr Marlin developed these products to fulfil the need of his professional clients for quality supplements, containing high grade, clinically proven ingredients that work.

 

[TPO]

David Marlin is a researcher though, he doesn't work for a specific company so presumably has nothing to 'push' other than evidence-based information.

Deleted- duplicate of @milliepop's reply

 

[Tiddlypom]

David Marlin is a researcher though, he doesn't work for a specific company so presumably has nothing to 'push' other than evidence-based information.

https://www.sciencesupplements.co.uk/david_marlin

 

[RHM]

Not sure where you get that from, their basic winter balancer provides

Each 100 grams contains:
28.89 grams of micronised linseed
10 grams lysine
5 grams phosphorous (mono-sodium phosphate)
12 grams magnesium (magnesium oxide)
400 mg copper (bioplex)
1200mg zinc (bioplex)
2mg iodine (calcium iodate)
1 mg selenium (yeast)
5 grams salt
2000 iu vitamin E oil

In fact I know some independent nutritionists don't recommend it because it is higher than the RDA of Copper and Zinc.

I did an Excel comparison some years back , I might share it if it's not too out of date. I had Equivita, Forageplus and Progressive Earth Interestingly the main forageplus and progressive earth ones were almost identical in proportions. The key difference was the recommended dose which was double in the case of forageplus. If you adjusted for this they were about the same pirce.

Since then they both have added extra products and versions. The PE Pro Balance strikes me as a good budget option as it uses sulphate/oxide forms of copper and zinc which are much cheaper than the bioplex and are less bulky so may be easier to get into fussy horses.

If you wouldn’t mind sharing your spreadsheet that would be great!

 

[ester]

lol he most definitely does work for a specific company, I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise. I have issues with some of his science and evidence base too.

 

[PurBee]

Not sure where you get that from, their basic winter balancer provides

Each 100 grams contains:
28.89 grams of micronised linseed
10 grams lysine
5 grams phosphorous (mono-sodium phosphate)
12 grams magnesium (magnesium oxide)
400 mg copper (bioplex)
1200mg zinc (bioplex)
2mg iodine (calcium iodate)
1 mg selenium (yeast)
5 grams salt
2000 iu vitamin E oil

In fact I know some independent nutritionists don't recommend it because it is higher than the RDA of Copper and Zinc.

I did an Excel comparison some years back , I might share it if it's not too out of date. I had Equivita, Forageplus and Progressive Earth Interestingly the main forageplus and progressive earth ones were almost identical in proportions. The key difference was the recommended dose which was double in the case of forageplus. If you adjusted for this they were about the same pirce.

Since then they both have added extra products and versions. The PE Pro Balance strikes me as a good budget option as it uses sulphate/oxide forms of copper and zinc which are much cheaper than the bioplex and are less bulky so may be easier to get into fussy horses.

The above forage plus dosages refer to elemental values of the nutrient, not the actual feed grams in weight, as stated on their site.
The above values come to around 65grams. So there’s 35grams in a dose of 100grams per day for the average horse which is a ‘nutritional void’. That’s a third of the dose that delivers nothing.

“Be aware that the above analysis for 100 grams is equivalent to elemental values fed.

The volume feed rate (100 grams) is not the same as the elemental feed rate values (above). Therefore the above figures will not equal 100 grams.”



so for example - to get the 12g of elemental magnesium dose as stated - and mag oxide contains 60% elemental magnesium - so the ‘feed weight’ added is actually 20grams of magnesium oxide added to the 100g dose.

To get 5 grams of phosphorus from mono sodium phosphate - that means that 20% phosphorus is in a gram of mono-sodium phosphate so 25 grams of monosodium phosphate is in the 100gram dose. That’s a quarter of the daily dose as an inorganic compound normally used as an industrial chemical and food ‘stabilisation’ agent.

It would be useful for supplement companies to list the actual feed weight of the ingredients added aswell as the dose of elemental nutrients the horse gets from that dose. To be truly transparent in the ingredient listing, some do, many dont.


I dont particularly want to feed mono sodium phosphate - its a laxative and can cause issues to a horse with bowel, kidney issues. I dont want salt in there degrading all the other nutrients. A third of the dose is ground up linseed - again very cheap to add, to bulk a product.
So mostly that 100grams is actually composed of extremely cheap ingredients - yet the price per day is 1.10 pounds to feed as a ‘nutritional supplement’ - which in reality aside from those bulk ingredients is only zinc, copper, selenium, vit e (which form on vit e i ask?) and an amino acid lysine.

Yet upon first glance it seems loaded with goodness, and it does have its benefits of course, but could be better.

Forageplus isnt a bad product compared to whats on the market - but it isnt the A grade top shelf top spec supplement its often thought to be either.

 

[criso]

If you wouldn’t mind sharing your spreadsheet that would be great!

I'm going to put lots of disclaimers in as it's a few years old. PE now make pro balance plus which is slightly different and have adjusted their dosage to 75g so the amount in the daily dose is higher. Forageplus ones seem similar though.
The prices are old maybe can assume they have all gone up equally
This does not include extras like biotin or some vitamins, it just compares some core minerals.
I may update it one day

 

[soloequestrian]

lol he most definitely does work for a specific company, I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise. I have issues with some of his science and evidence base too.

Oh, I didn't know that! I thought he was still lecturing/researching. Every day's a school day.

 

[criso]

The above forage plus dosages refer to elemental values of the nutrient, not the actual feed grams in weight, as stated on their site.
The above values come to around 65grams. So there’s 35grams in a dose of 100grams per day for the average horse which is a ‘nutritional void’. That’s a third of the dose that delivers nothing.

.

But at a basic level that's what I care about. If I buy a product I want to know how much it delivers in the recommended daily dose and the effective cost per day. You have some filler to take it up to an even scoop. That's why I did the spreadsheet though it's out of date now.

So assuming the fp price per day is 1.10, that delivers 1200mg zinc, if I look at the current PE pro balance that works out at 70p per day on a suggested dose of 75g per day but provides 900mg zinc so they start to look pretty similar.

I actually don't like it when companies put in weight or percentage because then I have to work out the effective dose.

Agree about not necessarily wanting to feed everything in it. That' why I make up my own. My forage is low in phosphorous so in theory I need it but I feed enough Copra that provides it so don't want to double up. But that's the difference between feeding a pre mix to a bespoke blend.

However I don't save much by making my own, I'm not in a position to buy and store bulk minerals and end up buying a a few kilos at a time. By the time you add in postage and bulk savings from buying a premix as there are often offers but never on straights, it doesn't save much. If I buy straight zinc then is works out at 17p per day to feed the fp dosage and that's before factoring in postage so I doubt I'm much under a pound a day and that's not as many ingredients.

 

[Surbie]

Just looking to pick all your wonderful brains about what supplements you all feed. ... So my question what does everyone else give and is it worth getting something cheaper?

I feed forageplus for skin & hooves, plus micronised linseed, mag ox from progressive earth & currently trialling boswellia. He gets that in a small handful each of speedibeet & agrobs soaked wiesencobs.Otherwise he's out 24/7 till November or later if it's possible.

He's ridiculously shiny, I've just had to trim his tail for the third time this year but his mane and feet don't grow much. His feet aren't particularly good. I might try equimins AC once the forageplus runs out, given how many recommend it on here.

 

[HuskyFluff]

@criso - I have a very similar spreadsheet. I'm glad I'm not alone in my geekiness...

 

[jnb]

Does anyone have the comparison for Equimins Advance Complete please

 

[PurBee]

But at a basic level that's what I care about. If I buy a product I want to know how much it delivers in the recommended daily dose and the effective cost per day. You have some filler to take it up to an even scoop. That's why I did the spreadsheet though it's out of date now.

So assuming the fp price per day is 1.10, that delivers 1200mg zinc, if I look at the current PE pro balance that works out at 70p per day on a suggested dose of 75g per day but provides 900mg zinc so they start to look pretty similar.

I actually don't like it when companies put in weight or percentage because then I have to work out the effective dose.

Agree about not necessarily wanting to feed everything in it. That' why I make up my own. My forage is low in phosphorous so in theory I need it but I feed enough Copra that provides it so don't want to double up. But that's the difference between feeding a pre mix to a bespoke blend.

However I don't save much by making my own, I'm not in a position to buy and store bulk minerals and end up buying a a few kilos at a time. By the time you add in postage and bulk savings from buying a premix as there are often offers but never on straights, it doesn't save much. If I buy straight zinc then is works out at 17p per day to feed the fp dosage and that's before factoring in postage so I doubt I'm much under a pound a day and that's not as many ingredients.

I completely understand your perspective - only by buying in serious bulk 50kg + do the savings become excellent. Supplement companies buy in by the multiple tonne load for pence per kilo yet unfortunately dont pass on much of that significant saving to customers - but when you have premises, advertising, staff salaries, packaging and marketing to pay for, squeezing a profit despite getting the raw ingredients in at pence per kilo, becomes challenging.

The best way is for a group of people to chip in for semi-bulk and mix their own to make huge savings.

ultimately if we stick to same forage supplier, same grazing acres and get the forage and grass tested, to find out significant deficiencies, we can supplement those, and that would be best, than taking a lucky dip with a ‘general balancer’ without really knowing if its needed or not.

When i settle on a forage supplier i like and get all my fields ‘improved’, then i’ll test and fill in the deficiencies via supplementation.

Im lucky - my horses do well on great forage mixes and a really low count mineral balancer. I wanted to try to optimise and am adding equimins adv. complete as a ‘top up’ just to see if they can be improved.

 

[criso]

There is nothing to stop you making one yourself now up to the spec of your favourite off the peg even without an analysis and see how much you save.

I did get together with friends at one yard to buy 25kg high purity low iron magox from Taycrest, I wouldn't by buying more than one sack, you had to buy ten plus to get a discount I think it worked out at about £6 per kilo as opposed to £8 - this was about 8 years ago now. Which is a saving but not one I would describe as huge. Obviously supplement companies are buying more than this and getting better savings but 25kg is quite alot for non commercial use to buy and store. Then there's the hassle of organising it, the order and delivery, weighing and decanting and collecting money from the others. It was an interesting experiment but not one I would do again

Equimins will sell you straights at a good price but last time I looked did not have bioplex versions of copper and zinc and their Magox is not the high purity, low iron version.

I have had the last 4 yards analysed, I took a sample of the grass and they made the bulk of their hay onsite it. There were small differences but essentially I need Copper, Zinc, Selenium, Phosphorous, Magnesium and Lysine. I then add yeasacc and a joint supplement. I've actually just moved and debating what to do. I've got minerals to use up so making a generic mix atm.

I mgiht update the spreadsheet though and think about getting a premix. See how much of the key minerals each delivers for your money.