Warmbloods and soundness

M

Moggy

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 October 2006
Messages
360
Visit site
Im just starting to look for a 4-6 yo to take over competing from my veteran at dressage ..... the dilema i have is i want to be competative to a reasonable level which points to a warmblood but then you hear all of the lameness problems people have.
Are the horror stories so numerous because people naturally post their issues or because of the large number of poor quality WBs sent to uk ? Have people had more success going to Holland/ germany to buy?

Please share your WB stories... good and bad
 
I have a Wb X. Never had a days lameness and he is 13.

However I know 2 that are a bit fragile, though no worse than any other breed really (if I look at the yard there are many Wbs and then a mix of others - the vet calls and injuries are pretty much spread out.
 
My best horse was a warmblood x ISH she was tough and sound .
I then bought two BWB one admittedly had its career cut short by a freak accident the other was a vets dream she was a lovely horse but a disaster .
I have recently bought a tradional ISH hes eight and romped through his vetting that was after two well bred well brought up WB 's failed both were five year olds .
I do think WB's seem to have more of the disastrous early onset unsoundness issues by that I am talking about horses with degenative type conditions under ten years old .
 
Mine is a Belgian Warmblood, imported from Belgium as a 4yo, well bred by a Ramiro Z sire out of a Darco mare.
From what I've been told (and seen of the records) she was lightly competed in BS for a few years, then was out of consistent competitive work between the ages of 11-13 until I bought her. I worked her for 9 months, doing RC stuff jumping no more than 70cm a few times a month. She is very sensitive skinned, can't handle too much grazing and has recently been diagnosed with navicular. Before I got her she was badly tangled in a wire fence and as a result has bad scarring on her hind legs.

In contrast, I also have a very low maintenance ISH who can be trusted to be chucked out into a field and survive.

I wouldn't swap my warmblood for all the tea in China though, she is brave, bold, self assured, absolutely stunning and when she is in work she looks and feels fantastic. She has broken my heart a million times over with all her issues.
 
atropa said:
Mine is a Belgian Warmblood, imported from Belgium as a 4yo, well bred by a Ramiro Z sire out of a Darco mare.
From what I've been told (and seen of the records) she was lightly competed in BS for a few years, then was out of consistent competitive work between the ages of 11-13 until I bought her. I worked her for 9 months, doing RC stuff jumping no more than 70cm a few times a month. She is very sensitive skinned, can't handle too much grazing and has recently been diagnosed with navicular. Before I got her she was badly tangled in a wire fence and as a result has bad scarring on her hind legs.

In contrast, I also have a very low maintenance ISH who can be trusted to be chucked out into a field and survive.

I wouldn't swap my warmblood for all the tea in China though, she is brave, bold, self assured, absolutely stunning and when she is in work she looks and feels fantastic. She has broken my heart a million times over with all her issues.
Click to expand...


My vet says WB's keep her in business!
 
There are a gazillion 'such-and-such' sportshorses sites springing up everywhere selling poorly conformed warmbloods most of which have been shipped over from the continent. Ask yourself the question of how much it costs to breed, ship, break and 'produce' - then consider if the price reflects that. If it doesn't it might be wise to consider why the horse might have been imported to the U.K.
 
TBH I know there are lots as poor warmblood over here .
But you also nicely made expensive ones who go spectacularly wrong .
 
Friend of mine worked with warmbloods on the continent. She said those that they knew wouldn't make the grade over there were sent to the UK for sale. I have a British bred warmblood and he has been super, old age catching up with him at 16 but otherwise been fab.
 
I think warmblood is a super broad term to group together and you will find vastly different types under the same term.

I think if the confo is good, they haven't been started too early and if you are lucky enough to see any of the family esp older siblings out competing you will have a better idea of how the lineage fair after a few years of work.

if you go abroad from the limited number I have seen it seems common to start them early and show them off as almost finished products (uphill round frames, very engaged behind etc) at 4 and sometimes even 3. A lot of people pay mega bucks for flashy horses ridden like that at a young age. In your position my temptation would be to buy one not started and then take your time allowing the body to develop so you know what strain has been put on them, giving them maximum chance of long term soundness.
 
I think there's a few reasons warmbloods get a bad rep for being injury prone, the main one being that the majority of warmbloods are used for competition and, therefore, are physically pushed harder as a breed than most others (similar to racing TBs).

Also:
- warmblood is a broad term and there's a lot of them out there;
- a lot of warmbloods are started young and asked to compete and perform from a young age (e.g. age classes);
- big flashy movement probably puts more strain on joints and greater risk of injury than conservative movement;
- there does seem to be a lot of poorly conformed warmbloods,though I'm not sure any more so than any other breed.

Personally I love a big, powerful, flashy warmblood.
 
We have had out DWB from the age of 6 - who is now 16 - we did have a problem with lameness when we had her in the first year -the vet couldn't find a reason for it but we took her shoes off and not a problem with lameness since. According to the farrier she has stone crushing feet now The only other big issue we have had with her was in November 2010 when she had her splint bone broken in 5 places following being kicked by a pony at a gate (the x-ray is in my profile). Since then she has been sound and has competed at various disciplines barefoot, show jumping on a surface and grass, dressage, cross-country and most recently Endurance.
 
I have a WB in the old fashioned meaning of the term; TB x drum. He is still undergoing investigation for toe dragging and 4 years down the line we still don't have a diagnosis.
My farrier sees a lot of bigger horses with issues and is adamant their working lives are shorter. Of course there will be exceptions but that's his overall assessment. My vet said pretty much the same! In their views the bigger the horse the more issues there tend to be.
 
Thanks for all your comments. Really interesting.
There seem to be so many over priced wb out there with major faults.... if i could find a classy wb x ish that maybe the answer.
 
Whats scary is the amount of warmblood influenced Irish sports horses coming out of Ireland now but sadly its the demand! You wouldn't find me owning one. Friends and acquaintances with them have had nothing but trouble and someones always seem to be lame but I guess thats not a very scientific approach to making a decision it just means I know a lot of horse owners, lol!
 
I can only tell you my own history and that of close friends.

1. Mine. Bought at four, broken at four, imported at four, father jumping GP. Cost £6,700, dead at ten with congenital wobblers and a C4 vertebra in five pieces and serious ataxia.

2. Mine. Imported at 2, bought at 2 for £3,500, father died early after showing great promise, grandfather Voltaire, mother graded top class. Bought to event, refused to jump. Sold as a dressage prospect for£7,500. Would now likely get a kissing spines diagnosis.

3. Mine. Broken at four, imported at four, paid £10,000, father GP dressage operated on at seven for congenital kissing spines, dead at eight from head fractures and fitting.

4. Mine/gifted. By a GP SJ KWPN. Lame on and off since five years old. Successfully barefoot rehabbed at ten. Turned out to be a mental nutcase. Put down at eleven.

5. Friend's. From Woodlander stud. Paid over £30,000. Very low mileage. Competed but not placed at elementary. Lame at eleven from probable hock spavin (still in diagnosis).

6. Friend's. British warmblood. Broken at seven. Operated on for kissing spines at nine. Failed. Has arthritic fetlocks. Now a brood mare, heaven help anyone who buys the offspring!

7. Friend's. British warmblood. Broken at four and turned away. Currently five and has only progressed to being ridden in walk. Sharp as a knife, bucks off its rider at the slightest provocation. First pro it was sent to to break refused to sit on it. Second got it going but you'd have to pay me a lot of money to sit on it.

8. Friend's. British Warmblood. A throwback to something much, much smaller than either parent. Easy, useful, but petty ordinary.

9. Friend's. British warmblood. Huge, long backed, ordinary, nothing special but no particular issues either, except serious separation anxiety.

This is every single warmblood I've been in close contact with.


Would I ever buy another? Hell no!
 
Last edited:
Nudibranch said:
I have a WB in the old fashioned meaning of the term; TB x drum. He is still undergoing investigation for toe dragging and 4 years down the line we still don't have a diagnosis.
My farrier sees a lot of bigger horses with issues and is adamant their working lives are shorter. Of course there will be exceptions but that's his overall assessment. My vet said pretty much the same! In their views the bigger the horse the more issues there tend to be.
Click to expand...

I came to the same conclusion after losing 3 big horses very long before they were even middle aged, never mind old, a Clydesdale, a Shire and a IDx. I now have a 23 yr old 16hh Westphalian Kaltblut who has been sound all the time I've had her, except for a foot abscess which cleared up when the Prascend kicked in.

I think the Westphalian was imported in foal, presumably to a TB, and then sold on but I have no idea how sound her offspring was. If she was younger (and so was I), I would seriously consider putting her in foal to one of the Standardbreds at the nearby stud to get a finer but hardy foal.
 
Last edited:
Big horses do not mature till eight or nine, It is up to the trainer/rider to manage the work load . In my opinion most lameness/unsoundness is brought on by overwork at a critical phase of development. The problem is not warmbloods ,the problem is the people taht buy warm bloods.
 
3 years ago I bought a 5yo Australian bred WB. He's a smaller horse, only 15.3, but good bone and still athletic. His feet are excellent, no shoes on ever, and he's a barefoot dream, I'm very lucky! At 5 he was pretty much green broke, crooked, stiff but w/t/c. I've taken him s.l.o.w.l.y to say the least, and yet the past six months has seen a super acceleration in his training and he's feeling strong training at medium level. Once he started to fully mature everything came together! He's never had a lame day The whole time I've had him. Cheap to feed, cheap to run.
 
At my old yard, there were a full brother and sister, the mare was a year older. Both were bought as foals. The mare now 10 and doing really well at dressage. The gelding was brought on slowly, but very early on, problems were found. He had a lot of issues, spent a hell of a lot of time on box rest, which he coped with fantastically, he was a really nice lad to be around. Sadly he was PTS last year with wobblers. He was probably only ridden for around 6 months of his whole life.

Owner of the gelding also paid a lot of money for an 8yo, big flashy gelding. He retired 18 months later with navicular and other lameness issues. Passed vetting with flying colours.
 
I've only owned one full WB (a Zangersheide gelding) and he was always breaking -filled legs, stifle injuries and so on and so forth. Not sure if I can read anything into that or not?
 
Mike007 said:
Big horses do not mature till eight or nine, It is up to the trainer/rider to manage the work load . In my opinion most lameness/unsoundness is brought on by overwork at a critical phase of development. The problem is not warmbloods ,the problem is the people taht buy warm bloods.
Click to expand...

I don't necessarily agree. Mine wasn't even sat on until he turned 4 and at 6 he has done nothing but light hacking. The toe dragging started at 18 months. Absolutely no doubt, next time I buy a riding horse I will go back to Cleveland Bays.
 
I'm sure I was just incredibly unlucky but my first WB was the 5yo I bought last summer. She did her DDFT in the field literally a month into owning her and ultrasounds showed mineralisation of both forelegs suggesting there had been an ongoing issue. She was pts in February after a heartbreaking battle to keep her sound. My vet felt it was a congenital issue with the way her tendons were formed. Her tendons are now at the RVC in a hope of one day getting to the bottom of what happened.

My other WB I've had for 6 months, and touch wood aside from thin soles seems to be doing fine.

So yeah, bit of a mixed bag my end.
 
Last edited:
Nudibranch said:
I don't necessarily agree. Mine wasn't even sat on until he turned 4 and at 6 he has done nothing but light hacking. The toe dragging started at 18 months. Absolutely no doubt, next time I buy a riding horse I will go back to Cleveland Bays.
Click to expand...

Echo Nudibranch. My 5yo had been lightly backed the previous summer and then turned away. When we bought her she'd just begun being sat on again and when she broke was only in light work. She certainly wasn't hammered in any way.
 
Warmbloods aren't a breed - they're a type, and a mongrel type at that, made by infusions of (mainly) TB blood into draft and carriage horse types. Sadly, you don't seem to get hybrid vigour with these crosses!

My Dutch horse was bought as a rising 4 yr old, just backed by his English importer. He is now 17. He has some slight age-related issues but has barely taken a wrong step in his life.

He was produced slowly, because he was growing, to GP. He has won at Inter 1 level. He is now a schoolmaster for a friend of mine, working at Adv Med.

They can be good!
 
When horses go wrong it's for lots of reasons .
Very big horses from the tradional cold blood /hot blood crosses often go wrong to this I feeel is because of the body and back conformation if they have the body of the draughty which was not developed for rideing it takes a lot of time and skill to develop the back and sometimes conformation means it's always not ideal .
Likewise the warmbloods you so often see them flashy and uphill when young but with subtle incorrectnesses in the rhytmn showing the horse is not moving through the back correctly .
I been on a bit of a journey with all this since I got a horse with KS I have now changed my training system a little to include more work on developing the back and body in a very boring and time consuming way .
However I have to say all the horses are stronger (or look stronger ) I am still exploring all this the internet is great for this sort of stuff and although you have to sort the wheat from the chaff there's so much stuff you can take good stuff from .
I think although some horses are ' born lame ' I think lots have the seeds sown for lameness in their early working lives .
When I think back to the first yard I worked on which did a lot of backing we did so much walking the horses were long lined , led from other horses up and down grassy hills .they where never ridden long but they walked and walked and walked in big fields the yard was in the most marvellous location for horses with loads of those small hills you get after glaciers drop gravel .
They did not go in schools but they where developing their backs and their gaits all the time for them selves .
Now you could back horses like that now as a buisiness it was not particularly safe in the way we look at it now .
To long in school often on not great surface not working on a good grass to much going round in circles I do think part of it is what we are doing more of .
 
Goldenstar said:
When horses go wrong it's for lots of reasons .
Very big horses from the tradional cold blood /hot blood crosses often go wrong to this I feeel is because of the body and back conformation if they have the body of the draughty which was not developed for rideing it takes a lot of time and skill to develop the back and sometimes conformation means it's always not ideal .
Likewise the warmbloods you so often see them flashy and uphill when young but with subtle incorrectnesses in the rhytmn showing the horse is not moving through the back correctly .
I been on a bit of a journey with all this since I got a horse with KS I have now changed my training system a little to include more work on developing the back and body in a very boring and time consuming way .
However I have to say all the horses are stronger (or look stronger ) I am still exploring all this the internet is great for this sort of stuff and although you have to sort the wheat from the chaff there's so much stuff you can take good stuff from .
I think although some horses are ' born lame ' I think lots have the seeds sown for lameness in their early working lives .
When I think back to the first yard I worked on which did a lot of backing we did so much walking the horses were long lined , led from other horses up and down grassy hills .they where never ridden long but they walked and walked and walked in big fields the yard was in the most marvellous location for horses with loads of those small hills you get after glaciers drop gravel .
They did not go in schools but they where developing their backs and their gaits all the time for them selves .
Now you could back horses like that now as a buisiness it was not particularly safe in the way we look at it now .
To long in school often on not great surface not working on a good grass to much going round in circles I do think part of it is what we are doing more of .
Click to expand...

really great post.

Dr Deb Bennet maintains that large, heavy draft-derived horses shouldnt be ridden-they arent built for it in the back, in bone density and neither are their feet (I can't remember her cut off now but expect its easy to find). Also maintains that any sort of work including pole work etc must be built up much more slowly than most of us would.

I have access to those sorts of hills GS, call them Kames up here. full of badger sets.

I am going back to native ponies-not that I've ever owned a WB but fed up of horses and their complications.
 
spacefaer said:
Warmbloods aren't a breed - they're a type, and a mongrel type at that, made by infusions of (mainly) TB blood into draft and carriage horse types. Sadly, you don't seem to get hybrid vigour with these crosses!
Click to expand...

Why would they have hybrid vigour when they aren't a true hybrid? Hybrids are a cross between two different species eg a horse x donkey or tiger x lion.

I have to agree with a lot of GS' post. I do think that too many circles (work on surfaces, lunging and horsewalkers) adds up. A lady I used to livery with, who had been a racehorse lass, always despaired about the lack of straight line work. It doesn't guarantee a sound horse, but you have to try to stack the odds in your favour.
 
spacefaer said:
Warmbloods aren't a breed - they're a type, and a mongrel type at that, made by infusions of (mainly) TB blood into draft and carriage horse types. Sadly, you don't seem to get hybrid vigour with these crosses!

My Dutch horse was bought as a rising 4 yr old, just backed by his English importer. He is now 17. He has some slight age-related issues but has barely taken a wrong step in his life.

He was produced slowly, because he was growing, to GP. He has won at Inter 1 level. He is now a schoolmaster for a friend of mine, working at Adv Med.

They can be good!
Click to expand...

No one can look at the horses wining competitions today and say warmbloods are not good .
However I suspect the they have as bad stats for long term soundness as those everybody gets so exercised about in the TB industry .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top