Warmbloods

[Elno]

Curious really, following the discussion about traditional ISH and those with WB's in them.

Are people generelly avoiding warmbloods nowadays, favouring different breeds? Has the breeding of WB's focused too much on fancy gaits and performance that they no longer suit the amateur? Has their temperament and soundness changed so much lately, or maybe it has always been the same and people are just finding different alternatives?

Do people here own warmbloods and are happy/unhappy with them?

I've had several horses through the years - from draft breeds to tb's and now own my second warmblood. I find him to be, together with the other warmblood I owned the best suited horse for me even though I'm very much an amateur mainly interested in dressage. I think it is because I personally find them to be the perfect middle ground- not as ploddy as a draft and not as highly strung as a tb, and with nice gaits and lovely personalities. When my guy gets older and retires I plan to again buy a warmblood, but this time from pure dressage lines.

Simply put: Are WB's out of fashion? ?

 

[pistolpete]

Interesting thoughts. I had the most fabulous little KWPN adored him perfect amateurs horse. Don’t see anything like him for sale now.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I don't think WB's are out of fashion. I think many people still think there is some status or prestige attached to owning a WB.

I've owned a WB previously, and I'm surrounded by WB's here in Germany. However, I prefer Iberians or a TB/TB cross.

I do think to some extent many WB breeders are breeding for the wow factor and movement. Some of these horses already are huge and looking quite adult like by 3, in some cases. I also think brains have been tossed aside by some breeders in favor of movement and athletism. Which then makes them not so amateur friendly. There are some that are quite amateur friendly still out there though.

The other thing with this movement is that the average amateur, quite frankly, can't ride it. So you often seen them bouncing around, or riding the horse in such a way that the movement is lost/reduced. Then there's those of us who just no longer want to ride that type of movement

Soundness is also sacrificed with many of these big movers. I also find many WB's to have odd quirks, mostly health quirks. So many have had soundness issues or just aren't quite right (in the head too).

They're just not for me anymore. If I were ever were to have a moment of impairment and buy another WB, I'd be very very picky. I am picky anyway, and I'd likely choose a less desirable sort (smaller, solid, and not such an extravagant mover).

I also feel many of them can be a bit...dense. I don't know if that's the typical German style of riding them that creates this or just their nature, or both.

 

[shortstuff99]

I won't buy a warmblood now for a few reasons; because they are now bred far too big and I'm only small, most of them have a lot of soundness issues and I find them a little slow.

Lots of people love them though!

 

[Birker2020]

I agree with others about WB's having joint issues but i really like them, I would be lost of anything other than a WB. I like them for their temperament, their movement, their quirky behaviour, their strong feet and their terrific sense of humour. They are kind and loving and make great competition horses.

I didn't want a WB because I think there's a status owning one, I just prefer that breed having had an ISH and a TB that I didn't get on with, the other five (including my new one) were all WB's so I guess that's what I'm most used to.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

If you want to look at a spots horse that is truly out of fashion within the British amateur market then look no further than the Anglo-arab. Such a shame too because the cross is a tried and tested one that results in lovely, quality horses that are amateur friendly.

 

[milliepops]

there are warmbloods and warmbloods though.
they aren't all 17.2 with huge movement.
i've got one in my stable who is 15.1 and has nice but not extravagant movement. The filly i bred from her who is now a yearling will hopefully make between 15.2 and 16hh and she went to a fairly old fashioned stamp of a KWPN stallion who is solidly made with a solid temperament and i HOPE i've made a nice normal amateur friendly horse! early indications are promising

 

[lannerch]

I do think a lot of the soundness issues associated with Warmblood as is often because as a breed particularly abroad they do too much too young .

 

[ycbm]

I think people need to understand that warmbloods can be any breeding whatsoever, whatever will pass the warmblood grading. There is even an Arab stallion that is warmblood graded.

When I say I will never have another, I am referring to any horse passported as a warmblood which had been bred for its movement in isolation of temperament and soundness.

I've had 4. The first refused to jump, did a rotational fall over a small show jump when made to, was slightly cold backed, and in retrospect may well have had kissing spines but they weren't a known thing at that time. He was sold for a lot of money as a dressage horse.

The second was bred to jump but was very inconsistent and had the craziest temperament I've ever owned. He trashed a lorry, he was scared of a daffodil on a verge, the list is endless. He turned out to be a congenital wobbler and I was told when that was diagnosed that the floating trot of many of the big movers is because they are wobbler and don't know where their back feet are, so stay in the air longer at each stride to figure it out.

The third was a serial head basher, seen to run straight into a solid wall, was operated on for kissing spines but gave himself two more head fractures in two separate incidents befire fully rehabbed and was put down.

The fourth was gifted to me as a foot rehab, though the gifter did not tell me he was dangerous. She did say he was always hacked in a Market Harborough. When frustrated or excited, he jumped fences which weren't there, the last time landing on an actual wire fence. When the gifter would not have him back he was PTS.

So, after four out of four, I will never spend money on another big moving warmblood, though I agree with Birker they are fab to ride, when they're sound.

When I have more time I will write about the six I knew of a friends, only one still in their ownership.
.

 

[Elno]

I agree with others about WB's having joint issues but i really like them, I would be lost of anything other than a WB. I like them for their temperament, their movement, their quirky behaviour, their strong feet and their terrific sense of humour. They are kind and loving and make great competition horses.

I didn't want a WB because I think there's a status owning one, I just prefer that breed having had an ISH and a TB that I didn't get on with, the other five (including my new one) were all WB's so I guess that's what I'm most used to.

Mm I feel the same way now having tried several other breeds. I always found them lacking in something compared to WB's ??‍

 

[rabatsa]

My best warmblood was an (Arab x CB) x (TB x ID).

 

[teddy_]

I think the warmblood gene pool is now far too large to generalise. You cannot draw a comparison between a hulking great Oldenburg and a dainty Trakehner that could be 50% Thoroughbred or Arab (FYI the Trakehner stud book is closed unlike any other warmblood so they really are quite different).

However, saying that, I am not sure that I would buy another warmblood as I have now owned two who were not line bred, they were reared incredibly well and still had myriad issues. My vet does openly admit that these days, most of the young horses he sees with 'issues' are warmbloods. Granted, he did comment that it was the larger ones that seemed to be most afflicted.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I think people need to understand that warmbloods can be any breeding whatsoever, whatever will pass the warmblood grading. There is even an Arab stallion that is warmblood graded.

Good point.

The stallion IS Orlow OX is approved by more than one warmblood registry. He's a very attractive individual.

ETA -
IS ORLOW OX 2003 Arabian stallion (Pamour x Orala, Santhos) approved for Trakehner, Hanoverian, Oldenburg

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I think people need to understand that warmbloods can be any breeding whatsoever, whatever will pass the warmblood grading. There is even an Arab stallion that is warmblood graded.

When I say I will never have another, I am referring to any horse passported as a warmblood which had been bred for its movement in isolation of temperament and soundness.

I've had 4. The first refused to jump, did a rotational fall over a small show jump when made to, was slightly cold backed, and in retrospect may well have had kissing spines but they weren't a known thing at that time. He was sold for a lot of money as a dressage horse.

The second was bred to jump but was very inconsistent and had the craziest temperament I've ever owned. He trashed a lorry, he was scared of a daffodil on a verge, the list is endless. He turned out to be a congenital wobbler and I was told when that was diagnosed that the floating trot of many of the big movers is because they are wobbler and don't know where their back feet are, so stay in the air longer at each stride to figure it out.

The third was a serial head basher, seen to run straight into a solid wall, was operated on for kissing spines but gave himself two more head fractures in two separate incidents befire fully rehabbed and was put down.

The fourth was gifted to me as a foot rehab, though the gifter did not tell me he was dangerous. She did say he was always hacked in a Market Harborough. When frustrated or excited, he jumped fences which weren't there, the last time landing on an actual wire fence. When the gifter would not have him back he was PTS.

So, after four out of four, I will never spend money on another big moving warmblood, though I agree with Birker they are fab to ride, when they're sound.

When I have more time I will write about the six I knew of a friends, only one still in their ownership.
.

I could go on and on too since there are so many here. However, I found this interesting:

"He turned out to be a congenital wobbler and I was told when that was diagnosed that the floating trot of many of the big movers is because they are wobbler and don't know where their back feet are, so stay in the air longer at each stride to figure it out."

I wonder if there is any more info out there on that. I've not heard that before, but I am intrigued. I know a big WB who is, IMO, nuero and he definitely doesn't know where his back feet are at all times. He's a very slow moving horse and also has a fair amount of airtime (not in an energetic, strong, springy sort of way, if that makes sense).

 

[windand rain]

In my opinion warmbloods are wonderful as long as they do not exceed 16hh once bigger than that they are a walking vet bill. The one I had was a super looking super moving 15.2 and was a kids/teenager horse

 

[Asha]

One of the nicest ive bred so far is Frank. Hes full warmblood, by Ramiro B out of a Don VHP mare. From the minute he was born, he was easy. Never saw the vet apart from vaccinations etc. No bigger than 16.1 was backed and ridden away in 5 weeks, and took the whole thing in his stride. Hes very different to the WB youngsters id bought in etc as he never overjumped, and hasnt the flashiest of paces. But he's kind , willing and genuine. hes been sold to a local family for their daughter to bring on, they are both coming along a treat.

From what ive been told Ramiro B does stamp a fabulous brain on them, the equine market needs more Franks.

Ive made the decision to step away from WBs as my heart has and always will be with the ID/IDx. Id love to breed for the amateur market, but with WBs its so hard to find amateur friendly lines. The studs ive seen/ been too seem to focus on producing the next rising star / stallion.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I wouldn't set out to buy another Warmblood, my last boy was Westphalian and had the biggest movement I have ever ridden - I would be asked his breeding everywhere he went and he would get comments. Yes, it was wonderful to ride, and he had so much ability and he taught me a hell of a lot about how to ride him and my seat etc etc. However, between his size and his movement he didn't stay sound and I lost him at age 11. I did also long for a horse at times, which I could just hack out and not have to be on high alert all the time. Think I'd look for something with a good dose of Irish blood if I were to buy again.

I would love an ID, but realistically I am never going to have that sort of budget.

 

[J&S]

The first refused to jump, did a rotational fall over a small show jump when made to, was slightly cold backed, and in retrospect may well have had kissing spines but they weren't a known thing at that time

You are totally describing the mare I owned!

 

[J&S]

I was told when that was diagnosed that the floating trot of many of the big movers is because they are wobbler and don't know where their back feet are, so stay in the air longer at each stride to figure it out.

This is a fact I have always understood. Yet people go abroad and search for the youngster with the most floaty trot!

 

[sport horse]

The generalisations here are amazing! The Europeans (dutch,german,belgian,french etc) breed about 60,000 foals a year - they are not all big, they are not all big movers, some jump better than others, some are sounder than others. You need to understand the bloodlines you are buying and if you do not then you should ask someone who does know, preferably before you buy!
The common belief is that ID and ID x are ideal for amateur riders. Yes they are once they are established in their work. In my experience many of them are the most backward thinking, nappy young horses that I have ever come across!
The moral - look at what you are buying, look at its performance records and who rode it to attain those records then look at its pedigree and ask advice on the temperament of the horses in that pedigree. Good horses and bad horses come from all breeds.

 

[Elno]

I could go on and on too since there are so many here. However, I found this interesting:

"He turned out to be a congenital wobbler and I was told when that was diagnosed that the floating trot of many of the big movers is because they are wobbler and don't know where their back feet are, so stay in the air longer at each stride to figure it out."

I wonder if there is any more info out there on that. I've not heard that before, but I am intrigued. I know a big WB who is, IMO, nuero and he definitely doesn't know where his back feet are at all times. He's a very slow moving horse and also has a fair amount of airtime (not in an energetic, strong, springy sort of way, if that makes sense).

We actually have one in our stable. He's a giant standing at +18 hands. He has something seriously wrong with his hind legs but the owners don't seem to be so inclined to investigate him and just say it's shivering... Breaks my heart watching him.

 

[ihatework]

Of course warmbloods aren’t out of fashion - they are everywhere!
They come in all shapes & sizes, temperaments etc.
Given the sheer diversity of them I don’t know how anyone can generalise anything for warmbloods.

Many are purpose bred for sport. It’s a numbers game. Sport is evolving and to be in with a shot of glory, you need ‘better this, better that’. So the breeding and training of these traits will come with downsides and yes that can be soundness and longevity.

But don’t kid yourselves, if you took a tb, a draught, a cross-bred and subjected them to the pressures purpose bred sports horses go through I doubt they would all stay sound either ? I know plenty of IDs/IDx that go lame young, usually lower limb joint issues, from hunting and the likes.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

I won't buy a warmblood now for a few reasons; because they are now bred far too big and I'm only small, most of them have a lot of soundness issues and I find them a little slow.

Lots of people love them though!

I have a Westfalen German Riding Pony who at 15hh is slightly over height as he shouldn’t be over 14.2. He is a miniature warmblood with the brain and the opinions of a pony and the kindest nature.

 

[ThreeWBs]

I have two WB's and adore them both.

17hh Belgian WB
- Classically bred
- Super easy & level headed
- Tries his heart out
- Can be spooky, but not in a dangerous way
- Clever
- Extremely kind
- Moves well, jumps better
- Will let beginners ride him

16.1 Oldenburg
- By top dressage Olympic/GP parents, g-parents
- Friendly, happy and affectionate
- Easy to handle
- Big movement
- Good jump
- Brave and doesn't let much upset him, but can be sharp
- Very clever and quick to learn
- Would not be an novice ride

I've owned and ridden lots of other breeds, and while they're good in their own ways, I find I'm always pulled back to WB's!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

We actually have one in our stable. He's a giant standing at +18 hands. He has something seriously wrong with his hind legs but the owners don't seem to be so inclined to investigate him and just say it's shivering... Breaks my heart watching him.

Same here, do we know the same people? ?

There's also something wonky in his neck, which may very well be causing the hind end stuff.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

My wb has been retired for 5 years now. He is 25. He is a stunning looking horse with movement to die for. Unfortunately in his younger years he was jumped too much and that knackered his legs later on in life. He is very sensitive but I'm not sure if this is down to the way he was treated before I bought him. I'd buy him again if I could!

 

[Regandal]

I had one who turned out to be a walking vet bill, but he was kind and possibly the most beautiful horse I have ever seen. He was a Dutch wb.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

The generalisations here are amazing! The Europeans (dutch,german,belgian,french etc) breed about 60,000 foals a year - they are not all big, they are not all big movers, some jump better than others, some are sounder than others. You need to understand the bloodlines you are buying and if you do not then you should ask someone who does know, preferably before you buy!
The common belief is that ID and ID x are ideal for amateur riders. Yes they are once they are established in their work. In my experience many of them are the most backward thinking, nappy young horses that I have ever come across!
The moral - look at what you are buying, look at its performance records and who rode it to attain those records then look at its pedigree and ask advice on the temperament of the horses in that pedigree. Good horses and bad horses come from all breeds.

I don't think anyone is disputing that there are good horses and bad horses from all breeds. It's just that I'm surrounded by WB's, personally, and often see more toward the bad side. These are often well bred and varying bloodlines. Although I am trying to pay attention to certain trends. I am definitely a "look at the horse in front of you" type so I don't think all are bad, and there could be one out there that I even deem suitable for myself. They're just generally not my preference. Of course there will be generalizations in such a thread, and I think most people get that.

I mean, I could also say negative things about some Iberians too. Prior to owning one, I didn't like them for a variety of reasons.

 

[ycbm]

QUOTE="ThreeWBs, post: 14780703, member: 127795"]I have two[/u] WB's and adore them both.

?

 

[sbloom]

My instinct is that nearly all horses are being bred for more elasticity to the detriment of soundness. I had two warmbloods, both Ramiro Z lines, both 16.1/16.2, both reasonably sane, straightforwards, though not without some veterinary issues, but both born over 20 years ago.

 

[Elno]

Same here, do we know the same people? ?

There's also something wonky in his neck, which may very well be causing the hind end stuff.

I don't know, do they live in northern Sweden? ??