Watchdog!

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

Poiuytrewq - yep they still have him, he's only a baby and he's done a lot so it's understandable that he has issues bless him.
But the rolling/lying down when ridden isn't going away, he's learnt to use it as its an effective way of getting out of doing things and he's generally one to use his strength against you. (as I unfortunately found out )
I think with a lot of time/paitence he may get better but he's still spooky and unpredictable, and completely not as described by Kelly's cobs he's lucky to be with my friends, don't think many other people would have put up with what they have.

Tell your friends to turn him away and give him the time to grow up that he should have had when they got him.

Sorry, but he's three, broken far too early, and they still don't sound as if they are taking that into account.

Sick and tired of reading about "light hacking" as if that's not work for the pony/horse.
It'd not the physical exertion, it's the mental exertion of keeping impulses under control when they are too immature.

We're getting the same problems with children in this country. At school too young, expected to control their normal impulses too young, then wondering why they are turned off about the whole process years later.

Once again, sorry for the rant, but honestly when will people learn that all animals, including humans, need time to grow up.

 

[*sprinkles*]

fortunately - it is only "buyer beware" in private sales. At least buying from a dealer (dodgy or not!) you are protected by consumer law. You expect a car to be as described, in a satisfactory condition on delivery and for it to remain so for a reasonable amount of time, if it is not - you are protected by the sales of goods act. This is exactly the same with a horse. Just because we become emotionally attached to them, does not change the law. Besides - dealers are supposed to be the experts and there are plenty of good honest dealers out there, who do find suitable horses for the buyer in question. This is an ideal way to buy in those instances as like I said, you have consumer protection.

You're absolutely right! It's so funny how with horses things like the sales of goods act get forgotten as you never think of it applying to an animal! I'm in no way saying he is in the right at all. I just feel like the programme never touched on what to most horse people is quite a normal procedure of ensuring a vetting is completed before the horse is paid for which would have picked up on the problems they discovered in the horses that they bought.

It's a real shame for the good dealers who get tarred with the same brush and distrusted due to companies like Kelly's Cobs. I bought both of my current horses from dealers and they have been fantastic.

 

[EmbroideryQueen]

I bought a horse, after having it vetted, and it still turned out to have behavioural problems that could not be cured and I finally had to have the poor thing put down The vet found no physical issues and the dealer (West Midlands area, also runs a riding school) would not take the horse back. I took a hugely experienced older friend with me but it only became apparent a week after buying the horse that there was a problem.

I paid to have him professionally re-schooled twice after he had dumped me on the road amongst other things, and neither yard were able to sort out his problems and he was deemed too dangerous to ride, hence the sad decision to have him put to sleep.

Trading Standards are a toothless tiger I am afraid and so I lost over 5K plus re-schooling fees x 2 and gained a lot of stress and worry and everything ended badly.

I have subsequently bought two horses, both sight unseen, one with and one without a vetting and both have been little gems and are still going strong after several years.

So sorry to all those of you who believe that a vetting or experienced friend is the answer to every horse buying woe because it isn't, and you are naive to think so in my opinion. Caveat emptor is a meaningless phrase too and used by smug people to illustrate the so-called stupidity of the often well-meaning buyer rather than the crooked seller (not saying that all sellers are crooked of course. I have sold horses and been very honest about them).

 

[galaxy]

I don't think anyone has said that if you have a vetting and an experienced friend you will never have a problem. But the odds of issues are significantly reduced if you do.

 

[whisp&willow]

I don't think that any of us has said that having a vetting or experienced companion is going to ensure a safe or sound purchase, but it is best practice, and in many cases may prevent inexperienced people ending up with a totally unsuitable horse.

Every purchase carries risk. We have only ever bought 2 horses- one I mentioned earlier, turned out to be significantly older than we had thought, but this did not affect the pony or its abilities etc. We had teething problems- the pony was very sharp and it took my sister a few weeks to get her confidence on her- but once she did they were a formidable team! This is to be expected with every new horse! We all need settling in time, and need to get to know each other.

The other was bought as a 2 yr old, and is still going strong now at rising 19. Broken by myself, but I had plenty of support from knowledgeable friends and instructors.

I must say neither were vetted, and both were viewed only by me and my family. I am the pot calling the kettle black here, as I was only about 10 or 11 when we bought Whisp (the then 2 yr old) and 15/16 when we bought tego. I was however experienced and confident in my abilities to judge the horses. (as I'm sure everyone is! ) Both were private sales, and we are still in touch with the sellers after all these years. I guess we have been lucky.

If I were to go out to view a horse now, I would bring a friend, and based on what I would be looking to buy, I would have it vetted. I would then cross my fingers, as you just never know...

 

[cappucino]

I don't think anyone has said that if you have a vetting and an experienced friend you will never have a problem. But the odds of issues are significantly reduced if you do.

I agree, I don't think that anyone has said that having a vetting and experienced friend will ensure all is well.

I am in no way excusing the dodgy dealer who clearly just wanted to make money from the horses, not caring if people were hurt and lied in his descriptions. I wouldn't be at all surprised if all the horses they try to sell are deemed 'suitable for a novice' but I might just be being cynical!

But in the cases shown a vetting should have identified the future problems (I did say should as it is not definite).

In my opinion it would have been interesting to see what would have happened had they requested a vetting prior to purchase, I would also like to have seen his reaction to them returning the horses, and what excuses he made regarding refunds etc. I'm sure we can all imagine what his reaction would have been!!!

It would also have been interesting if they had tried to sell him a horse, describing certain issues which would have made the horse unsuitable for a novice, and then tried to go and buy the horse for a novice!! Or an older horse to see if it miraculously lost a few years!

 

[pip6]

Not against vettings, if I was looking for an expensive purchase I'd probably get one done (knowing one lady who bought 6 yr old for 20k & it has degenerative bone disease - would have been known to seller). However I've bought 3 horses, none vetted. Word of mouth means so much. The first I had on loan for 2 years before I bought her aged 19, had her for another 10 amazing years. Second bought aged 4 from a lady in sport I wanted to do with good reputation. Knew horses faults/level training /age, totally up front about everything, too me to advanced level in 5 years. Third was unridable broodmare through our vet, knew her injury, bought her for pence. She's produced 2 stunning & talented fillies in 7 years, about to drop her 3rd foal. Vettings have their place when buying from strangers, but gut instinct, asking about locally and in the sphere you want to compete are also very valuable resources.

 

[GeeGeeboy]

Just watched the episode , poor Loppy and Queenie.

 

[LovesCobs]

You're absolutely right! It's so funny how with horses things like the sales of goods act get forgotten as you never think of it applying to an animal! I'm in no way saying he is in the right at all. I just feel like the programme never touched on what to most horse people is quite a normal procedure of ensuring a vetting is completed before the horse is paid for which would have picked up on the problems they discovered in the horses that they bought.

It's a real shame for the good dealers who get tarred with the same brush and distrusted due to companies like Kelly's Cobs. I bought both of my current horses from dealers and they have been fantastic.

I've not read all answers but I have to disagree with the protection you have when buying from a dealer. I bought from a supposed good dealer, it went very wrong. I had loads of evidence including video of the dealer saying she was suitable for a nervous rider (she was bought to stay with my lot but for my friend who is a beginner and needed to be suitable for her). she was vetted. I have also had professional opinions that would stand up in court from vets, farriers and BHS AI instructors who agree that she needs re - breaking from scratch and that it was far more than settling in issues. I have a horse and 2 ponies at home, I'm by no means a professional but I'm not completely stupid as to how to settle a horse in and this went far beyond that.
I found the 'protection' with consumer rights is rubbish. Dealers often have little or no assets, if you win in court you get an agreement for them to pay you back a tiny amount a month (if your lucky, if not they just take the CCJ) I don't know anyone that has got their money back. Trading standards are rubbish, and the dealers change their name (this one did).
My advice, to myself now as well, is to pay with a credit card, even if you offer to pay the 3% fee that a business pays the credit card company. this way if you win then the card company pays you back. other than that the protection you supposedly get when going through a dealer is not really worth much (not just my story, in going through it I made contact with quite a few people in the same situation with small claims).
i'm sure there are good dealers and I thought I'd researched this one, I was wrong, I didn't dig hard enough
lesson learnt, she is now my summer project after going for professional breaking first. she's currently worth less than 1/2 of what was paid and windsucks (but didn't on the vetting as she does it after feed!)
its a shame we cant name and shame on here, we would save each other from a few bad dealers and get a good idea of the good ones

 

[foxy1]

The owner who part exchanged her injured horse should be ashamed of herself.

 

[onemoretime]

I think somehow people get an idea in their head that if its from a dealer it is a business so you don't need vetting- which is most definitely wrong!
people trust someone they think is a professional, it is such a shame you cant

You're dead right there Pippi!!!

 

[onemoretime]

Could do with a 'Tripadvisor' for Horse dealers, name and shame the bad guys and highlight the reputable ones.
You put any bad experiences on forums they get taken off for being slanderous...

Yes, we certainly do need a Tripadvisor for horse dealers that would be an excellent idea and would certainly help a lot of people when looking for a new horse. People should be able to tell each other when they have been duped into buying a horse.

 

[onemoretime]

And therein lies the problem.

Dodgy dealers, and people unwilling to face up to their responsibilities.

A receipe for disaster!!

 

[TommisMum]

We had something similar.
Show pony - aged 12, proven track experience. Tried several times before buying. More than one opinion sought. (I have had horse for 20+yrs)
5* vetting .... but no xrays. Due to price and insurance.
Bought from dealer.

2 weeks into light work pony starts to fall down - Not roll due to naughtiness - just fall down when saddle put on.

Fortunately traced previous owner who had sold pony to dealer as a comanion/brood mare because of this known problem.
Prev Owner and Vet both prepared to go to court with me to see pony was not as sold and I got my money back.

However there was the emotional side for my daughter as she had already fallen for the pony.....

So even with care we can all be done ...

 

[KellysCobs]

Hello, this is David from KellysCobs, I have read the posts here and would like to thank its contributors as unlike facebook etc. its not full of death threats and other silly childish remarks, but mainly balanced mature comments. While I accept in light of Watchdog we at KellysCobs are going to have a very hard time defending ourselves as its a case of Judge, Jury and executioner without the right to appeal on TV and sadly most people believe if its on TV then it must be true. In saying that we have been heartened by the level of support we have had from genuine customers who have actually dealt with us rather than the keyboard warriors who just believe what they want to believe. I am happy to answer any sensible questions you may have and hopefully we back my answers up with provable fact. I will not respond to silly comments that serve no genuine purpose in this debate. I will also add, if anyone wishes to visit our premises for genuine reason of concern over animal welfare etc then you are welcome to do so and I will be happy to talk with them over a coffee. To add I have pasted a letter from trading standards who are fully aware of this and are very supportive.

Hi David

I have no problem in confirming that we are currently working with you and we have been working with you prior to the Watchdog broadcast in all aspects of your business, from your animal welfare obligations to your e-commerce and terms and conditions. I can also confirm that to date you have responded positively to the advice offered and have taken steps to comply with Trading Standards requirements. If the magazines wish for me to confirm this directly to them, feel free to pass on my contact details.

Regards

Andy Woad
Trading Standards Enforcement Officer

North Lincolnshire Council
Places Directorate
Church Square House
Scunthorpe
North Lincolnshire
DN15 6XQ

Tel 01724 297654
Fax 01724 297895
www.northlincs.gov.uk/tradingstandards

 

[kat2290]

This thread just keeps on getting better

 

[Polos Mum]

David - I couldn't possible condone your actions selling unsuitable horses to unsuitable buyers, I don't believe you can't tell a hopping lame horse from a sound one or a 12 y/o from a 26 y/o

However I do think some of the blame should rest with the selfish previous owners who instead of putting to sleep their 26 year olds/ perminantly injured horses at home like they absolutely should, they sell them as a 'companion' to a dealer! If people took responsibilty for these horses in the first place you would be out of business because you wouldn't have anything to sell.

I think the 'heartbroken' previous owners should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[mightymammoth]

I agree with everything you've said there polos mum. People are so kean to pass on there responsibilities these days it's frightening and 9 times out of 10 its the horses that suffer.

 

[Adopter]

I do agree with the above responsible owners should not pass on horses which can no longer be ridden without safe guards. A better passport system would address some of this.
David credit to you for trying to answer the questions, I did think you came across on the programme as prepared to talk to Watchdog which most traders do not and I felt they were not interested in your response as it would not make good TV. I hope that you are able to do as you say above and continue working to improve the service you offer and find ways to help novice owners make suitable choices. My concerns are for the improvement in conditions and welfare for all horses and ponies and educating people to look after them properly.

 

[KellysCobs]

Morning Polo Mum, thanks you for your sensible post and as stated in my first post I will back up where possible my responses with provable fact. We purchased Loppy from the person named below and had no reason to doubt what she claimed which was her dentist aged Loppy at 16/17. Im sure we all appreciate how difficult it is to age a horse over 10, as proven in the Watchdog program when the vet at Redwings stated 20 to 25 a five year window to allow for inaccuracy. Is it not fair to allow us the same tolerance of five years 16 to 21 ?. Could I ask you for your opinion on viewing the clip of Loppy on Watchdog leaping about like a youngster, did she look more like a 16 or a 25 ?. I do accept this is all very subjective and cant be proven one way or another unless the breeder comes forward with a date of foaling but what can be proven is the fact we were told a dentist had aged the horse and thats the age we sold her as. We have tried contacting the seller both via email and facebook to establish which dentist aged Loppy and so far she has failed to respond. Another point is Loppy was vetted extensively by Watchdog and other than a old scar which the vet admitted did not affect her she passed with flying colours, the only other comment the vet stated in a letter from Watchdog to us was she was needle shy when blood samples were taken. Now how many 16 year olds let alone 25 year olds pass a vetting ?.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
My email to person who sold us Loppy


Hi its David from Kellyscobs who bought Loppy from you. We have had a enquiry from Trading Standards about Loppys age. Please see email below where you say your dentist says 16/17 established by your dentist. Could you kindly let us have details of your dentist so we can argue back as they say Loppy was 20 plus.

Many Thanks

David
-------- Original Message --------
Subject:
From: [Personal Information Removed]
Date: Tue, January 22, 2013 8:01 am
To: sales@kellyscobs.co.uk

shes 16.1 irish draft x, grey mare she is really lovely but has her moments a typical mare. shes a real cross country machines jumps anything in her path not found anything that scares her. she is excellent on roads and to hack out will go behind but orefers to be infront and does get giddy in a collecting ring. no dangerous but cn put in a rear if she is held tight i just usually keep her loose and trotting date of births unknown on passport but dentist rekons about 16,17 but you wouldnt believe it she has a scar on her right hind leg from a barb wire accident but has always been found and vet says it will never cause her a problem open to vet check £1200 or nearest offer x x

 

[JFTDWS]

I really think that at the very least you should have removed the email address from that post.

 

[KellysCobs]

Morning Adopter. Again thank you your balanced comments and thank you for your comment on my interview with Watchdog. I can assure you inside I was shaking as when fifteen people with five cameras jump out at you with all sorts of accusations its well lets say refreshing. The interview in fact went on for fifteen to twenty mins where I invited them to inspect every horse on the yard (40 plus) along with all the paperwork/passports, this they declined. They constantly referred to how dangerous it is to sell a lame horse to a child. I pointed out we didnt sell Queenie to a child but to a very experienced middle aged lady who knew what she was taking about. Can I ask given that we do refund in full as proven on Watchdog by the lady they interviewed Jane Arkle that we do in fact refund if a horse fails vetting and in full. What did we have to gain selling a lame horse? Queenie was a lovely horse (a tad grumpy) and we were not aware of any lameness. The lameness was discovered after doing flexion tests and then xrays were taken to discover a small fracture. Watchdog went on to claim Queenie is so bad she will have to be put to sleep. Can I ask this forums opinion on if Queenie is so bad and in such pain with no chance of recovery (as stated in the program) then why do they not as sad as it is do the correct thing and put the horse to sleep now, rather than in 2 years as they stated would happen. I have my own opinion but would like yours. I will add with both horses watchdog purchased a full refund was offered.

The national average of horses being vetted that fail is above 30 percent, most fail on lameness after flexion tests. This is regardless of the horse being £500 or £50000 and by dealers or private sellers. Were all these sellers guilty of knowingly selling a lame horse, I suggest not. So far I have received 4 death threats and scores of other threats. What have I done differently to all the other sellers whos horses go on to fail a purchase vetting?. This is not me whimpering or crying about my treatment, but like I did in the program its me defending myself against in my view unfair biased accusations.

Regards

David

 

[KellysCobs]

With regards removing the email address from my posts, if I did I would be accused of writing the email myself. I stated in my first post I will respond with provable replys. This is a genuine email sent us.

Regards

 

[KellysCobs]

Reply to Adaptor. We are now looking into the costs of having every horse pre-vetted with the customer still having the option of re-vetting if so desired. Hopefully this will help this not happening again and as you suggested help novice purchases in the future.

Regards

 

[Montyforever]

But David, it doesn't excuse the fact that you sold my friends a 4 year old "safe" cob for children.

And he was 2 at the time of sale, rolls when ridden, barges, and is generally a very uncoordinated youngster who causes accidents just by being clumsy. The first thing we said when he came off the lorry at our yard was that he looked younger than 4, and when they had the vet out he was confirmed as a 2 year old.

He landed me in a&e with torn ligaments and a dislocated shoulder when I was just leading him down to the field. I accept horses will be horses and it has it's risks but you sold that horse as SAFE FOR CHILDREN!

You are a dodgy dealer, one case of the horse not being as described is forgiveable, but you do it over and over and over again.

 

[JenJ]

With regards removing the email address from my posts, if I did I would be accused of writing the email myself. I stated in my first post I will respond with provable replys. This is a genuine email sent us.

Regards

No you wouldn't be accused of that. I suspect it's against T&Cs of the site, and am certain that it is against forum etiquette to publish another's email address.

I watched the program and felt that watchdog did a poor job and came out looking a little silly. Thanks for coming on here and putting your side.

Please edit your post and remove the address.

 

[JFTDWS]

With regards removing the email address from my posts, if I did I would be accused of writing the email myself. I stated in my first post I will respond with provable replys. This is a genuine email sent us.

Regards

It's not good form to publish people's personal email addresses on public fora. I have reported it to Admin as it is too late to edit it now, and they can decide if it's acceptable or not.

I understand your motivation, but that doesn't make what you're doing right.

 

[foxy1]

But David, it doesn't excuse the fact that you sold my friends a 4 year old "safe" cob for children.

And he was 2 at the time of sale, rolls when ridden, barges, and is generally a very uncoordinated youngster who causes accidents just by being clumsy. The first thing we said when he came off the lorry at our yard was that he looked younger than 4, and when they had the vet out he was confirmed as a 2 year old.

He landed me in a&e with torn ligaments and a dislocated shoulder when I was just leading him down to the field. I accept horses will be horses and it has it's risks but you sold that horse as SAFE FOR CHILDREN!

You are a dodgy dealer, one case of the horse not being as described is forgiveable, but you do it over and over and over again.

Do people really think any 4 year old is 'safe' for children?

 

[KellysCobs]

Morning. With regard Flash or Woody as the customer renamed him. You state the vet aged the horse at two? Well what age does the passport say which was not done by us btw (we will post the passport details if required) It says four ( if memory serves me correctly) and that was done again by a qualified vet for the breeder. So we now have 2 vets with different opinions. To be honest its a difficult one to answer as I do rely on professionals to age the horse correctly. What is interesting is if you were of the opinion the horse was two, why was it not returned and why were you riding it? Again Im the first to accept we like all make mistakes, but they are genuine mistakes.

Regards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

But David, it doesn't excuse the fact that you sold my friends a 4 year old "safe" cob for children.

And he was 2 at the time of sale, rolls when ridden, barges, and is generally a very uncoordinated youngster who causes accidents just by being clumsy. The first thing we said when he came off the lorry at our yard was that he looked younger than 4, and when they had the vet out he was confirmed as a 2 year old.

He landed me in a&e with torn ligaments and a dislocated shoulder when I was just leading him down to the field. I accept horses will be horses and it has it's risks but you sold that horse as SAFE FOR CHILDREN!

You are a dodgy dealer, one case of the horse not being as described is forgiveable, but you do it over and over and over again.

 

[KellysCobs]

Update on Woody. Kelly has just informed me we did offer a full refund after the customer had the horse vetted but this was declined as she wished to keep the horse. Can I suggest if you were of the opinion the horse was only 2, yet you continued to ride the horse you may have contributed to any negative behaviour the horse may have. Not wanting to be argumentative but it does raise questions that you could answer. If the its to be believed the horse was two it would now still be under 3 so really I feel you have to shoulder some responsibility given the fact a refund was offered.

Regards