Watchdog!

Suzie13 said:
Actually yes. The practices you both used to sell horses were undeniably wrong, unethical and dangerous.

At least Dagmar has had the good sense to get out of dealing horses, albeit not entirely through choice but because as soon as anyone realised who she was they wouldn't touch her horses with a bargepole. Unfortunately you do not seem to have had the same good sense, instead using other fronts so that buyers do not realise who they are dealing with.

So now, can you deny that you sold horses with fake passports, passports that were for other animals, lame and definitely not fit for purpose?

I'm afraid from what I've been told and seen the passports for your horses mean less than the paper they're written on.
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Yes I can deny it and have the courts support in proving it. Can you offer any supportive evidence of your claims? If yes please show it or point us in the right direction to verify ourselves. So far when asked to prove any of your claims all you've said is I know Dagmar. I will continue to reply to you or anyway providing they support there claims with some form of evidence.
 
Lovescobs said:
kellyscobs
I personally would not accept a pre-vetted horse by you or any other dealer, how am I to know that a horse pre vetted had then not been put on any form of sedative to make it calmer and more appropriate for a beginner than it actually was? that may help with long term lameness (but running the bloods is very expensive which puts people off) but it would not help with a buyer knowing if a horse had any form of drug to make it 'suitable' in character,I would also not trust that the paperwork had not been falsified (by any dealer) and I would want to be present at a vetting and chose the vet, any time I haven't been it turned out to be a disaster.
i'm not at all convinced about Kellys cobs (who I haven't used)
I have however been stung by a dealer who I thought had a good reputation, had the horse vetted but ended up with a very very green horse that has had to be completely re-backed by a professional. I paid the price of a horse that was steady and suitable for a beginner (as I had friends who were beginners and I did not have the time to bring on a horse as well as manage the others we have) I therefore was prepared to pay the extra price.
this dealer did not refund even with all threats and legal letters; and trading standards are rubbish. I could easily win in court but what for? no money would come my way. a change in home or ownership did not cause this it was far too extreme, no swap was agreed to, the horse windsucks which was noticed from the second day and I could go on!
I believe the lady who had to fight and go through what she did to get her money back, I'm glad she did eventually as many of us don't ever see a penny. good on you and I'm glad you agreed to go on watchdog (however good or bad the report was overall).
I think someone on this thread said something about kellys cobs terms and conditions changing? if you need to find previous webpages you can, they never disappear, they are logged and can be searched by date. I did this to check changes to a website.
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If you read the terms of my vetting it does state your very welcome to re-vet with any vet of your choice. Can you suggest a better way ?

Regards

David
 
Suzie13 said:
Actually yes. The practices you both used to sell horses were undeniably wrong, unethical and dangerous.

At least Dagmar has had the good sense to get out of dealing horses, albeit not entirely through choice but because as soon as anyone realised who she was they wouldn't touch her horses with a bargepole. Unfortunately you do not seem to have had the same good sense, instead using other fronts so that buyers do not realise who they are dealing with.

So now, can you deny that you sold horses with fake passports, passports that were for other animals, lame and definitely not fit for purpose?

I'm afraid from what I've been told and seen the passports for your horses mean less than the paper they're written on.
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So you state you've seen these fake passports, can you support this in any way. Can I ask as your clearly not a fan of mine why if you had such good evidence in your own hands you did not report this to the relevant authorities ? Surely that would have given you great satisfaction. Thankfully regardless of a person past evidence is required to prove an allegation.

Regards

David
 
Lovescobs said:
kellyscobs
I personally would not accept a pre-vetted horse by you or any other dealer, how am I to know that a horse pre vetted had then not been put on any form of sedative to make it calmer and more appropriate for a beginner than it actually was? that may help with long term lameness (but running the bloods is very expensive which puts people off) but it would not help with a buyer knowing if a horse had any form of drug to make it 'suitable' in character,I would also not trust that the paperwork had not been falsified (by any dealer) and I would want to be present at a vetting and chose the vet, any time I haven't been it turned out to be a disaster.
i'm not at all convinced about Kellys cobs (who I haven't used)
I have however been stung by a dealer who I thought had a good reputation, had the horse vetted but ended up with a very very green horse that has had to be completely re-backed by a professional. I paid the price of a horse that was steady and suitable for a beginner (as I had friends who were beginners and I did not have the time to bring on a horse as well as manage the others we have) I therefore was prepared to pay the extra price.
this dealer did not refund even with all threats and legal letters; and trading standards are rubbish. I could easily win in court but what for? no money would come my way. a change in home or ownership did not cause this it was far too extreme, no swap was agreed to, the horse windsucks which was noticed from the second day and I could go on!
I believe the lady who had to fight and go through what she did to get her money back, I'm glad she did eventually as many of us don't ever see a penny. good on you and I'm glad you agreed to go on watchdog (however good or bad the report was overall).
I think someone on this thread said something about kellys cobs terms and conditions changing? if you need to find previous webpages you can, they never disappear, they are logged and can be searched by date. I did this to check changes to a website.
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I have never been convicted nor investigated for drugging horses in anyway. Hundreds of my horses sold have had blood samples taken as is normal practice. Very easy thing to prove with such good evidence available such as a blood sample. Never happened. yes I know I will now be accused of claiming innocence but why shouldn't I defend myself. In earlier posts on other topics if guilty ive accepted it fully.

Regards

David
 
So David of Kellyscobs when are you going to make good on your promise to answer those questions people have been waiting paitently for? You seem to have conveniently forgotten your promise to answer them "tomorrow"
 
KellysCobs said:
So you state you've seen these fake passports, can you support this in any way. Can I ask as your clearly not a fan of mine why if you had such good evidence in your own hands you did not report this to the relevant authorities ? Surely that would have given you great satisfaction. Thankfully regardless of a person past evidence is required to prove an allegation.

Regards

David
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I've never reported it as it has never affected me. The only reason I'm meantioning this now is because I saw the posts on here from yourself which people seemed to be believing and felt that I should say something, considering what I know. If there's a chance I can save one person going through the heatbreak of buying an unsuitable, misadvertised or lame horse then I'll be happy.

It simply galls when I see someone blatently lying I'm afraid.
 
sandi_84 said:
So David of Kellyscobs when are you going to make good on your promise to answer those questions people have been waiting paitently for? You seem to have conveniently forgotten your promise to answer them "tomorrow"
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Sadly Tomorrow never comes , still sitting patiently waiting :rolleyes:
 
platypus said:
Sadly Tomorrow never comes , still sitting patiently waiting :rolleyes:
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I couldn't remember your's or the other poster who is still patiently waitings names :o
David it does seem a bit convenient of you to forget to answer these questions and it only makes it look like you're hiding something.
 
KellysCobs said:
So you state you've seen these fake passports, can you support this in any way. Can I ask as your clearly not a fan of mine why if you had such good evidence in your own hands you did not report this to the relevant authorities ? Surely that would have given you great satisfaction. Thankfully regardless of a person past evidence is required to prove an allegation.

Regards

David
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Bottom line David... Evidence or no evidence... Do you deny her accusations? Is what she says true or false in your opinion.

All you keep saying is can you prove it, can you prove it? I'm sure that many of the people would be happy to prove it and provide the documentation as evidence against you in a court of law, but not on a public thread. Can you deny it, can you prove you didn't do these things?
 
Queenbee said:
It's easy to get banned here for being forthright to other posters... Not so much on Facebook, that's why we appear more civilised.

Your problems: you have little product knowledge as you say so you should get a vet out to asses all your horses before selling. You should also have people working who do know what they are dealing with, who can spot lameness and who know about good levels of care, pay them, respect them, learn off them, trust them to care for the horses since you can't by your own admission.

You are prepared to sell within hours of getting the horse, you should no matter what the circumstances cover your back by assessing the horse and its character before hand, it is no good to just pass on a sellers word. This is dangerous to the purchaser and your reputation.

You view your horses as products, cash cows only not living things... As long as you do this you will fail. Bottom line you are dealing with living things, with brains, and pasts, unless you recognise this and accommodate for this in your attitude and behaviour you will never get any better. I'm not saying give every horse a sugar cube and matching numnah and exercise boots. I'm saying it is possible to recognise and respect life and make money from it, just treating them as things is what's got you into all the situations you are in.

It is not good enough to say that you are comparable with other dealers... So what? Your practices, standards and knowledge are flawed... So give up or change them. You admit you have limited knowledge, you haven't a clue how to age a horse or spot lameness, yet you go armed with cash to a sales buy horses for reselling with no knowledge of what you are looking at. do you know how ridiculously stupid this is?

The one thing I simply can't understand is why you continue in this line of work when you by your own admission know nothing. Ignorance is not an excuse or defence. Riding is considered an extreme sport for a reason... It's dangerous enough without immoral people like you dealing in dangerous and potentially dangerous animals with no flipping knowledge of what your doing. You are putting people's lives and loved ones lives at risk by doing this. I wonder, if queenie had been purchased and paralysed someone or perhaps killed them... Would you have felt one scrap of remorse?
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KellysCobs said:
My lack of knowledge referred to horse imports some ten years ago.

Regards

David
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Queenbee said:
Then what's your flipping excuse now?!! Ignorance??!! So your now saying you know how to age horse - but still mis sold them,you know how to spot lameness - but still ignored it and sold as sound.


You say your now knowledgable, so what's you excuse for your behaviour?
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Do you remember these posts David... I asked you what your excuse was, since you claim to be experienced?

If you are experienced, why was queenie sold when she was visibly lame in the video of her being ridden at your yard?

Why did she not get checked by a vet for being visibly lame?

Have you now watched the footage of her lame being ridden at your yard, since you are now claiming to be experienced and knowledgable I assume you agree with the rest of us that this is the case?

If you are experienced why did you miss sell:
Woody... 2 not 4
Queenie lame and injured and mis sold as good for a novice and a jumper
Loopy... Closer to 25 than 16

Anyone with half a brain cell would have checked these horses and properly assessed them before the were sold and a proper assessment would have shown up all issues.
 
KellysCobs said:
I have never been convicted nor investigated for drugging horses in anyway. Hundreds of my horses sold have had blood samples taken as is normal practice. Very easy thing to prove with such good evidence available such as a blood sample. Never happened. yes I know I will now be accused of claiming innocence but why shouldn't I defend myself. In earlier posts on other topics if guilty ive accepted it fully.

Regards

David
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you will notice I did not say you did. I said as a purchaser from any dealer these would be my concerns if a horse was pre vetted and I stand by that. I'm simply telling you why a pre vetting in my opinion which would increase the price of a horse, only for me to have to vet it again doesn't make sense to me. There are drugs that can come out of a horses system between a trail and a vetting if the vetting takes a little time to organise, not necessarily to cover lameness but that would take the edge off a horse and chill them out more than they naturally are.
why are you doing it? to be seen to be selling honestly or to save yourself money? if you buy a horse to sell on and it fails your vetting will you send it back and get a refund and so save money in the long run? if not what will you do with that horse?
If the vettings save you money in this way then go ahead and do them. but they would not provide me as a customer with any reassurance as in my mind it could be falsified, again I'm talking in general for any dealer.
You've come up with a suggestion as to how you can improve things, I'm just giving you my opinion as to why it wouldn't work for me
 
In my opinion.

KellysCobs 'specialize in providing family horses suitable for all riders including the nervous and novice' and emphasis this point throughout their adverts and website. And to a novice and inexperienced person they may just get away with it.

Neither of the 3 horses feature on the Watchdog program lived up to this expectation, although I'm not sure what they were advertised as. The grey turned out to be older than expected (not always ideal for a 'family' as the older a horse gets the more it costs to take care of them!), next 'Queenie' the piebald, seemed to have a very unpredictable nature just from the clips shown, defiantly not suitable for a novice rider and the young horse 'Woody', well in fairness the woman should be aware that a young horse is not always suitable for children but again a 2 and a half year old, in my opinion, should be only lightly backed and is still immensely green, defiantly not a childs ride.

All of this is nothing compared to the lack of compassion showed by KellysCobs. If they valued their horses enough, they would sell under the correct advertisement, as no caring owner wants a horse to go to a bad home. I truly hope they did not know that 'Queenie' was lame else i am sickened at the thought that she could have been brought by an inexperienced rider and forced to work in extreme pain. Surely a man like David himself, who has been round the dealers circle numerous times, and the staff at KellysCobs should be able to see a lame horse and check the age of the horse, considering they must be experienced riders to bring on and deal these schoolmasters etc. incase they do have habits that need to be corrected.


All said and done however, you cannot prove anything on videos (neither those clips on Watchdog or any of KellysCobs adverts) or on two cases of a busy dealers yard. Granted these two horses may have slipped through, but i hope KellysCobs are willing to act on this. I have seen them advertised a lot, as we both are situated around Lincolnshire (or so i believe from advertising sites) and originally thought they could be a small family run business due to the name and what i thought to be, genuine approach of advertising.

In all i am disappointed, that any dealer who claims to trade in safe, family cobs, could let a novice rider buy or even mount one of there unsafe and unsuitable horses. Defiantly builds the wrong kind of reputation.

As for the 14 day trial, i agree every horse should be taken on trial, no matter private or trader, but using this an excuse, questions why you would be so insistent that a horse can be returned if unsuitable when you sell, safe, all rounder, schoolmaster horses. And also i only saw 2 cobs when browsing your website.

--------

Will be very interested to see any responses to this, didn't mean to sound so harsh, just wanted to express my concern and discomfort at the less-than-legit trading seen on TV.
 
Going to stick my oar in here! As a dealer myself I always recommend that pot. Purchasers have vettings done on the horse BEFORE it leaves my yard. I would rather take a couple of hundred off the price so the purchaser has a vetting if funds are tight as a vetting provides a bit of protection for both buyer and seller. I as a seller will also always request bloods are taken, even if purchaser hasn't requested bloods. I think the main issue here is how you deal with customers, yes it's fine taking horses back all the time but funnily enough I would hate any of mine to go off and return due to being in the wrong homes. David, I know these horses are your trade, but it does no harm to get to know your stock a little better and actually like them as individuals before sale. If your doing it purely for the money then your certainly in the wrong game!
 
horse18 said:
In my opinion.

KellysCobs 'specialize in providing family horses suitable for all riders including the nervous and novice' and emphasis this point throughout their adverts and website. And to a novice and inexperienced person they may just get away with it.

Neither of the 3 horses feature on the Watchdog program lived up to this expectation, although I'm not sure what they were advertised as. The grey turned out to be older than expected (not always ideal for a 'family' as the older a horse gets the more it costs to take care of them!), next 'Queenie' the piebald, seemed to have a very unpredictable nature just from the clips shown, defiantly not suitable for a novice rider and the young horse 'Woody', well in fairness the woman should be aware that a young horse is not always suitable for children but again a 2 and a half year old, in my opinion, should be only lightly backed and is still immensely green, defiantly not a childs ride.

All of this is nothing compared to the lack of compassion showed by KellysCobs. If they valued their horses enough, they would sell under the correct advertisement, as no caring owner wants a horse to go to a bad home. I truly hope they did not know that 'Queenie' was lame else i am sickened at the thought that she could have been brought by an inexperienced rider and forced to work in extreme pain. Surely a man like David himself, who has been round the dealers circle numerous times, and the staff at KellysCobs should be able to see a lame horse and check the age of the horse, considering they must be experienced riders to bring on and deal these schoolmasters etc. incase they do have habits that need to be corrected.


All said and done however, you cannot prove anything on videos (neither those clips on Watchdog or any of KellysCobs adverts) or on two cases of a busy dealers yard. Granted these two horses may have slipped through, but i hope KellysCobs are willing to act on this. I have seen them advertised a lot, as we both are situated around Lincolnshire (or so i believe from advertising sites) and originally thought they could be a small family run business due to the name and what i thought to be, genuine approach of advertising.

In all i am disappointed, that any dealer who claims to trade in safe, family cobs, could let a novice rider buy or even mount one of there unsafe and unsuitable horses. Defiantly builds the wrong kind of reputation.

As for the 14 day trial, i agree every horse should be taken on trial, no matter private or trader, but using this an excuse, questions why you would be so insistent that a horse can be returned if unsuitable when you sell, safe, all rounder, schoolmaster horses. And also i only saw 2 cobs when browsing your website.

--------

Will be very interested to see any responses to this, didn't mean to sound so harsh, just wanted to express my concern and discomfort at the less-than-legit trading seen on TV.
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natalia said:
Going to stick my oar in here! As a dealer myself I always recommend that pot. Purchasers have vettings done on the horse BEFORE it leaves my yard. I would rather take a couple of hundred off the price so the purchaser has a vetting if funds are tight as a vetting provides a bit of protection for both buyer and seller. I as a seller will also always request bloods are taken, even if purchaser hasn't requested bloods. I think the main issue here is how you deal with customers, yes it's fine taking horses back all the time but funnily enough I would hate any of mine to go off and return due to being in the wrong homes. David, I know these horses are your trade, but it does no harm to get to know your stock a little better and actually like them as individuals before sale. If your doing it purely for the money then your certainly in the wrong game!
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A couple of really good posts :)
 
platypus said:
What a surprise hes disappeared , just if anyones interested heres loppys video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmVi51nImdc :mad:
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Poor very sweet horse - I hope the person that sold her to David is VERY embarised and makes a substantial donation to Redwings for her ongoing care.
This is a good lesson for anyone who thinks it's sad/ unfair/ mean to PTS a horse that might have a little life left in it yet !!
There is a thread on here about a 30 year old free to a good home !!!!!!! WHY.
 
Afraid I may have spooked him, as I know exactly what his dodgy practices are.

It would be interesting to see him respond now.
 
An update from Redwings today, from their FB page, on Loppy & Queenie:

"Afternoon all! As promised, here is an updated photo of Loppy and Queenie who were the stars of last week's BBC Watchdog programme after they were purchased from a horse trader. We carried out the veterinary examinations following their purchase by a BBC undercover reporter... Loppy turned out to be 25 rather than 16, and Queenie has a sesamoid injury in her hind leg (her bone is fractured more than once) and serious behavioural problems despite being for sale as a riding horse 'suitable for a novice', poor girl. Both have been offered a permanent home here at Redwings, they have now gone out into a lovely field full of grass and as you can see, they have become firm friends!"

Click on page to see the lovely photo: :)
http://www.facebook.com/RedwingsHorseSanctuary?hc_location=stream
 
ooh this makes sense now I received a PM from a TV researcher asking about my exp from buying froma dealer last year and asking me not to discuss the matter. I never replied...
 
Queenbee said:
A couple of really good posts :)
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I have previously bought horses from several dealers, because I live in Europe and it is not always possible to view private sales as easily.

In the case of Kellys cobs the appeal of a 14 day trial seemed useful for me to try the horse for a reasonable time before paying to transport it to Europe.

However , due to a change of plans i chose to have the horse vetted before taking delivery and he categorically failed the vetting before even leaving the yard. 10 months later after employing a solicitor at a cost of over £1000 i have had the purchase price returned finally. I am however still owed over £800 for court costs.

It would seem the guarantees are worth nothing be very aware this is not a good dealer!
 
I posted a thread about how few horse's kellys Cobs have on dragon Drivng. I had a look last night again and realised why.. More horses are listed under David -T using the same phone number as Kelly's Cobs. Ya can't keep a good man down,.. Or a bad one either it would seem.
 
I find it quite interesting (if that's the right word) :rolleyes: that he never came back to answer peoples questions etc...
 
I don't think the re-vamped website is going to wash with many people. For a start, the name is wrong - Kellys Cobs is misleading and was originally designed to hide the identity of the person behind it. We've not heard much at all from "Kelly" have we? A more apt name would be "Daves Dodges". He's not even legally allowed to run a limited company.

http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2006/April2006/News280406/watchdog.htm

This guy has been sent to prison for fraud. He has Trading Standards all over him all the time. He's not interested in cleaning his act up, just lying to make it look that way. He's been the star of Watchdog a couple of times and had countless CCJ's registered against him. Some on HHO have tested his "money back warranty" and had nothing but trouble so really it's no surprise he did a runner once the questions on the forum got harder and the thread attracted a few more disgruntled customers.
 
Just spotted horse for all arenas on horsemart with same mobile number as Kelly's cobs so looks like not just dragon diving ads changing. The same horses are also on Kelly's cobs website......
 
KellysCobs said:
for those who follow us they will remember a horse called vinnie a stunning horse that had ring bone. We had the horse a year fully explaining the ringbone in all our adverts and to all customers. Yes it but most off but after a year we found him a great home as a light hack and he is still going great guns today.

Regards

David
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Hi David

Came upon this thread as my better half was talking this evening about what was happening between yourselves and Watchdog and I thought I'd do a google and see what came up. I was stunned to see Vinny (not Vinnie) mentioned in the thread so I've signed up just to post how about how he's coming along and to give my viewpoint on the sale / purchase.

We were advised fully on the phone on initial enquiry about the ringbone and this was mentioned again when we came up to see you. Both vet and blacksmith have since given the same opinion that this is due to a knock sustained probably while hunting and is not degenerative. Also both agree that this is not causing any discomfort or pain to him and that to all intents and purposes he is sound for any reasonable use.

When we bought him we explained that his purpose would be for my wife to hack out on alone (also I was meant to learn to ride on him but I can't get her off him long enough for a lesson - but that's incidental). We were therefore quite unhappy when we got him home to find he had problems with napping, roadwork and that he did not like at all being on his own. Was this misrepresentation - possibly although with the number of horses you had passing through it's also possible you just didn't notice any change in his behaviour during the year you had him. Out of interest was he sold and returned a few times during that period? We ask as it seemed to both of us that Vinny kind of "switched" once we'd had him a while and once he came to trust and have confidence in my wife she was able to rapidly start to overcome these problems. That's why we wonder if he was in and out from you a few times and lost his confidence in people.

As advertised he is snaffle mouthed and has perfect manners around the yard.

Confidence is a two way thing and I'm happy to report that for the first time in her 40+ years my wife took part in a jumping round at a local show. Only 60cm (which Vinny could almost walk over) but she was smiling for a week afterwards.

He's a big gentle giant (17h2 irish sports horse) who is hopefully enjoying his life. We've moved recently to a livery yard on a nature reserve so he has almost limitless amounts of riding through beautiful countryside.

Would we deal with you again? - Yes.
Would we be a little more wary? - No not really. You're in the business of moving flesh and we always had the option of returning him.

We paid £1K or so for him and we feel like we robbed you. My wife would not part with him.

I notice from some previous posts that there is some suspicion regarding first time posters who have a good word to say about Kellys Cobs. If anyone has any doubts about me feel free to PM and I'll happilly send you photos I've taken over the last few months we've had him. It's no bother I jump at any chance to show him off.
 
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