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Northern Hare

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15 October 2012
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766
Hi ROG,

Please can I check for a driver over 70 (it's not for me btw), if they want to tow a combined weight over 3,500kg, what will they need to have in place please? Will they need to take a new test (HGV?) and Doctor's Certificate?

Many thanks 😊
 

ROG

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Hi ROG,

Please can I check for a driver over 70 (it's not for me btw), if they want to tow a combined weight over 3,500kg, what will they need to have in place please? Will they need to take a new test (HGV?) and Doctor's Certificate?

Many thanks 😊
They will need to pass a D4 medical to get back their LGV C1 and C1+E (with the 8250 restriction) that they gained for free by passing car test before 1997 - that D4 medical will last for 3 years
 

ROG

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They will need to pass a D4 medical to get back their LGV C1 and C1+E (with the 8250 restriction) that they gained for free by passing car test before 1997 - that D4 medical will last for 3 years
I was assuming you meant driving a VEHICLE over 3.5 tonnes but on re-reading it I think you may have meant a combo over 3.5 tonnes using a VEHICLE under 3.5 tonnes in which case all that is needed is a B+E which is retained at all ages providing the B licence remains valid
 

Northern Hare

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Messages
766
I was assuming you meant driving a VEHICLE over 3.5 tonnes but on re-reading it I think you may have meant a combo over 3.5 tonnes using a VEHICLE under 3.5 tonnes in which case all that is needed is a B+E which is retained at all ages providing the B licence remains valid
Hi ROG, thanks so much for your replies and apologies for the delay in replying to you! 😊

Yes it's the combined weight of vehicle and trailer that will be over the 3,500kgs. They use a twin cab 4x4 to tow the trailer with.

Can I just double check please, does that mean they don't need either a medical nor to take an HGV test, as long as they're driving license is still valid?

Thanks again! 👍
 

ROG

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Hi ROG, thanks so much for your replies and apologies for the delay in replying to you! 😊

Yes it's the combined weight of vehicle and trailer that will be over the 3,500kgs. They use a twin cab 4x4 to tow the trailer with.

Can I just double check please, does that mean they don't need either a medical nor to take an HGV test, as long as they're driving license is still valid?

Thanks again! 👍
Correct
 

The Trooper

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19 July 2018
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814
Location
Scottish Borders
Hi ROG,

Can I check that I am right in saying I need my b+e in order to tow the following with the following...

Bateson Deauville weighing 860kg empty
Horse weighing 690kg

Mondeo mk4 estate, towing capacity of 1800kg. First number on vin plate is 2275kg (GVW?)
Actual weight is 1575kg.

Total weight taking the actual weight is under 3.5t but is not if I use the suspected GVW.

Thanks in advance!
 

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ROG

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Joined
8 January 2010
Messages
7,453
Location
LEICESTER
Hi ROG,

Can I check that I am right in saying I need my b+e in order to tow the following with the following...

Bateson Deauville weighing 860kg empty
Horse weighing 690kg

Mondeo mk4 estate, towing capacity of 1800kg. First number on vin plate is 2275kg (GVW?)
Actual weight is 1575kg.

Total weight taking the actual weight is under 3.5t but is not if I use the suspected GVW.

Thanks in advance!
Deauville trailer is 2300 MAM
2275 + 2300 = 4575 total so over the 3500 limit for B towing
Down plating the trailer MAM will not help in this case as it would need to be 1600 allowing for a little leeway and that would still be 2275 + 1600 = 3875

You only have a max trailer MAM of 1225 to use for B towing
A lighter horse or a lesser GVW vehicle is the only solution for B towing
 

friesianfan69

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4 November 2008
Messages
204
Location
Hertfordshire
POST NUMBER 3000 so this one is mine as its easy to refer to

Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained

Licensing laws are based on plated weights not actual weights.

GVW, MAM or MTPLM means maximum permissible legal weight when fully loaded.

The towing vehicle GVW can be obtained from the V5 registered keepers form listed as maximum permissible mass, the handbook, or a plate somewhere on the vehicle – usually under bonnet or hidden in a door frame – the top figure is always the GVW.

Towing capacity (manufacturer actual towing weight limit) – not legally enforceable in the RTA but based on safety and engine power under certain conditions.

GTW - the max legal weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.
In most cases, the GVW added to the towing capacity will also be the GTW.

The trailer info can be obtained from a plate on the trailer, by calling the trailer manufacturer, or on the internet. If no plate then the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating will be used by the authorities to determine the MAM to a maximum of 3500 even if the total is more than that.

There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to cope with the plated MAM of a trailer but there are plenty of internet myths on this.

The only legally recognised way to down plate a trailer of 3500 kgs MAM or less is to contact the trailer manufacturer usually at very little cost.

The laws/rules are these for both B+E & B licence towing.
The GVW of the vehicle must not be exceeded (RTA law)
The GTW must not be exceeded (RTA law)
The plated MAM of the trailer must not be exceeded (RTA law).
The towing capacity should not be exceeded (can be prosecutable under C&U regulation 100).
The lower of the trailer MAM or the towing capacity must/should be used as the maximum actual weight when loaded.

For B licence towing with a trailer over 750 kgs MAM.
The vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM must not exceed 3500 kg (RTA law)

EXAMPLE
Vehicle
GVW 2050 kg
Towing capacity 1700 kg
GTW 3750 kg

Trailer
Un-laden/empty 700 kg
MAM 2000 kg

For B+E licence towing the trailer can be loaded with 1000 kgs because 1000+700=1700 kg which is the towing capacity.

For B licence towing the trailer would need down plating from 2000 kgs to a maximum of 1450 kg.
The reason is that 1450+2050=3500 which is the maximum allowed for B licence towing.
The trailer can be loaded with 750 kg because 750+700=1450 kg which is the trailer MAM.

Caravan weights work on a slightly different system as they take into account the recommended (not legal) 85% towing advice.

SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


The B+E test
No medical or theory test required
Read a number plate from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions =
- usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise = http://www.drivesafedriving.co.uk/b_e_rev_movie.htm - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM = https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._PCV_BE_manoeuvring_exercise_area_diagram.pdf
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up =
- done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
One hour road drive - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer = https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-rules-for-driving-test-vehicles

Well explained here = http://www.trailertraining-wales.co.uk/test.html

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED – a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test that means you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself.
DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS = http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022521
Remember that the required 600 kgs of sand bags or 1 x 1000 IBC filled with water will be required in the trailer and the load must be secure.



Please post with as much of this info as you can if you want me to answer a specific query - weights in kg please

LICENCE
B or B+E =

VEHICLE
GVW =
Towing capacity =

TRAILER
Un-laden/empty =
MAM =
Ive got a Nissan xtrail 07 plate, if i got an Ifor williams 401 classic, could of drive it on my licence, I passed just after April 97
 

ROG

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Ive got a Nissan xtrail 07 plate, if i got an Ifor williams 401 classic, could of drive it on my licence, I passed just after April 97
ASSUMING the 401 classic is the same weights as the 401 standard and the Xtrail has say a GVW of 2100 then it is possible

XTRAIL GVW 2100 = need you to tell me the exact number
401 plated MAM 1600 BUT downplated to 1400 via call to IW
Leaves approx 600+ for the trailer load

LOT OF ASSUMING HERE SO NEED YOU TO GIVE ME EXACT FIGURES
 

friesianfan69

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Joined
4 November 2008
Messages
204
Location
Hertfordshire
ASSUMING the 401 classic is the same weights as the 401 standard and the Xtrail has say a GVW of 2100 then it is possible

XTRAIL GVW 2100 = need you to tell me the exact number
401 plated MAM 1600 BUT downplated to 1400 via call to IW
Leaves approx 600+ for the trailer load

LOT OF ASSUMING HERE SO NEED YOU TO GIVE ME EXACT FIGURES
My car is 2000kg Braked towing capacity, Car weight is 1525kg
401 is 770kg unladen?
1600kg Gross weight
Pony approx 443kg
 

holeymoley

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Joined
18 November 2012
Messages
2,946
Interested to hear Rog’s reply to that combination. I tow a single trailer but with a heavier car. Surely with a car of that weight you run the risk of the tail wagging the dog?
 

tallyho!

Wearing a headscarf intriguingly....
Joined
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Messages
14,351
Interested to hear Rog’s reply to that combination. I tow a single trailer but with a heavier car. Surely with a car of that weight you run the risk of the tail wagging the dog?
Snaking happens in certain circumstances, it's not all about having a heavier vehicle vs load. Loading of trailer (e.g. avoid overloading the nose); speed, winds, swerving etc.
 

ROG

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Thanks

Car GVW 2050 leaves max 1450 for a trailer on a B licence
If trailer is currently plated at 1600 then you need to phone IW with as many numbers off the trailer as possible and ask them to down plate it to 1450
Usually this involves you removing the current plate then sending it with the money (£50 I THINK) to IW who then send you a new plate to put on it

At 1450 with an empty weight of 770 leaves 680 for a max trailer load so about 1.5 of your ponies
 

friesianfan69

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Joined
4 November 2008
Messages
204
Location
Hertfordshire
Thanks

Car GVW 2050 leaves max 1450 for a trailer on a B licence
If trailer is currently plated at 1600 then you need to phone IW with as many numbers off the trailer as possible and ask them to down plate it to 1450
Usually this involves you removing the current plate then sending it with the money (£50 I THINK) to IW who then send you a new plate to put on it

At 1450 with an empty weight of 770 leaves 680 for a max trailer load so about 1.5 of your ponies
Thats great thankyou, Would be safe ? not back heavy?
 
Joined
16 June 2020
Messages
1
I'm seeking out advice from Rog if possible please?

I have a skoda octavia scout 4x4 2011 reg, Gvw 2155kg and towing capacity of 1600kg. I have ordered a bateson derby to be used for one 550 kg horse with the partition taken out. All stuff loaded in the car not the trailer.
Please could you kindly advise what the trailer should be down plated to? I dont want to take my B+e test.

Many thanks
 

ROG

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Joined
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Messages
7,453
Location
LEICESTER
I'm seeking out advice from Rog if possible please?

I have a skoda octavia scout 4x4 2011 reg, Gvw 2155kg and towing capacity of 1600kg. I have ordered a bateson derby to be used for one 550 kg horse with the partition taken out. All stuff loaded in the car not the trailer.
Please could you kindly advise what the trailer should be down plated to? I dont want to take my B+e test.

Many thanks
Bateson Derby will need down plating to 1300 from its original 1700 to comply with B licence towing laws (2155+1300=3455)
At 1300 with an empty weight of 675 the trailer can take a load/horse of 625 (your horse only 550 so 75 to spare)

Not certain of price now but it used to be that bateson charged £10 for down plating
You contact Bateson with all the trailer details
You remove current plate and send it with money to bateson
Bateson send you new plate
You fix on new plate

Needs a metal drill and a pop rivet gun with a few pop rivets in most cases - many let a mechanic do the removal and fixing on
 
Joined
11 June 2020
Messages
10
@ROG

Hello, thanks so much with your help on my post the other day.
I think I’m mainly through my confusion but I was wondering if you could confirm this for me-
If I buy this car :
A Skoda octavia 2011 tdi cr scout dsg 5dr automatic,
Buy a Bateson Derby trailer and downplate it to 1400, and add my 600kg horse, this will be legal on my B license?
thank you so much
 

ROG

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 January 2010
Messages
7,453
Location
LEICESTER
@ROG

Hello, thanks so much with your help on my post the other day.
I think I’m mainly through my confusion but I was wondering if you could confirm this for me-
If I buy this car :
A Skoda octavia 2011 tdi cr scout dsg 5dr automatic,
Buy a Bateson Derby trailer and downplate it to 1400, and add my 600kg horse, this will be legal on my B license?
thank you so much
IF the car GVW is 2100kg or less then YES
 
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