ROG
Well-Known Member
ASSUMING .....
car GVW 1920
Still need trailer plated MAM + max tow limit for car + what licence you have
Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic
- Thread starter tallyho!
- Start date
car GVW 1920
Still need trailer plated MAM + max tow limit for car + what licence you have
friesianfan69
Well-Known Member
Car GVW 2170 + trailer 1330 my licence i passed jan 97
ROG
Well-Known Member
Thanks
Total 3500 so ok with your current B licence which will go from B to B+E possibly on 15 Nov
Caveat - as long as car has max tow limit of at least 1330 if you are loading the trailer to its max of 1330
ROG
Well-Known Member
MYTHBUSTER
This is likely to raise its head again when the free B+E comes into force possibly on November 16th 2021
There is no law or rule which states the plated MAM of the trailer must fit into the maximum tow capacity of the towing vehicle
There are myths about which say that if the trailer MAM is more than the max tow then it has the potential to be overloaded
One way to think about this word potential is this -
Police stop a car on the motorway doing 70 but then charge the driver as the car has the potential to do 150
As we know that is really silly!
Legal example
Vehicle max tow limit 2000
Trailer MAM 3500
Trailer empty 1000
Max load for trailer 1000 due to the lower limit of 2000
This is likely to raise its head again when the free B+E comes into force possibly on November 16th 2021
There is no law or rule which states the plated MAM of the trailer must fit into the maximum tow capacity of the towing vehicle
There are myths about which say that if the trailer MAM is more than the max tow then it has the potential to be overloaded
One way to think about this word potential is this -
Police stop a car on the motorway doing 70 but then charge the driver as the car has the potential to do 150
As we know that is really silly!
Legal example
Vehicle max tow limit 2000
Trailer MAM 3500
Trailer empty 1000
Max load for trailer 1000 due to the lower limit of 2000
Gallopingvet
New User
Sorry Rog can I check I’ve understood? So if the car states maximum towing all I need to make sure is that the trailer loaded always weighs less than that, and that the mam of the trailer doesn’t necessarily matter? I have B plus E license and a volvo v90 car and am trying to tow one horse. Most modern trailers plus my horse would be way less than 1700kg from what I can work out.
ROG
Well-Known Member
MAM does matter if that is lower than the vehicle max tow limit but I think you have considered that although it did not make it clear in your post
ROG
Well-Known Member
UPDATE
New rules for towing a trailer with a car from autumn 2021 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
The rules about what you can tow will not be changing on 15 November 2021. The change will be introduced at a later date, and as soon as possible. Sign up for email alerts to be told when the new date is confirmed. You must continue to follow the current rules until the law changes.
New rules for towing a trailer with a car from autumn 2021 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
The rules about what you can tow will not be changing on 15 November 2021. The change will be introduced at a later date, and as soon as possible. Sign up for email alerts to be told when the new date is confirmed. You must continue to follow the current rules until the law changes.
ROG
Well-Known Member
Still no date set for when all car drivers will get B+E
Draft legislation: The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 5) Regulations 2021 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
A statutory instrument was laid on 16 September 2021 titled the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2021 (the ‘No. 2 Regulations’) and was due to come into force on 15 November 2021. The substantive legislative changes proposed in the No. 2 Regulations would have removed the need for a person to pass the ‘B+E’ car and trailer test before they could pull a heavy trailer behind their car. This would have meant people with licences awarded after 1997 also no longer needed to pass a separate test to tow a heavy trailer.
This statutory instrument was not approved in time for the No. 2 Regulations to come into force on 15 November 2021. Since such affirmative statutory instruments cannot be amended once laid in draft, we have taken action to lay the regulations afresh as the draft Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 5) Regulations 2021 (the ‘No. 5 Regulations’).
To make rapid progress on this, we are seeking to make use of the urgency procedure under paragraph 14(6) of schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. I am of the opinion that, by reason of urgency, the requirements for this affirmative statutory instrument (by virtue of paragraph 13(1) of schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018) to be made after being published in draft for 28 days, together with a scrutiny statement, should not apply.
Forgoing the 28-day publication period will allow earlier laying of the No. 5 Regulations than would have otherwise been possible and strengthen the steps we have already taken to increase HGV testing capacity and ease supply chain issues as quickly as possible. Arrangements will be in place to ensure that the changes made by the No. 5 Regulations are operationally effective as soon as they come into force.
Published 23 November 2021
Draft legislation: The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 5) Regulations 2021 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
A statutory instrument was laid on 16 September 2021 titled the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2021 (the ‘No. 2 Regulations’) and was due to come into force on 15 November 2021. The substantive legislative changes proposed in the No. 2 Regulations would have removed the need for a person to pass the ‘B+E’ car and trailer test before they could pull a heavy trailer behind their car. This would have meant people with licences awarded after 1997 also no longer needed to pass a separate test to tow a heavy trailer.
This statutory instrument was not approved in time for the No. 2 Regulations to come into force on 15 November 2021. Since such affirmative statutory instruments cannot be amended once laid in draft, we have taken action to lay the regulations afresh as the draft Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 5) Regulations 2021 (the ‘No. 5 Regulations’).
To make rapid progress on this, we are seeking to make use of the urgency procedure under paragraph 14(6) of schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. I am of the opinion that, by reason of urgency, the requirements for this affirmative statutory instrument (by virtue of paragraph 13(1) of schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018) to be made after being published in draft for 28 days, together with a scrutiny statement, should not apply.
Forgoing the 28-day publication period will allow earlier laying of the No. 5 Regulations than would have otherwise been possible and strengthen the steps we have already taken to increase HGV testing capacity and ease supply chain issues as quickly as possible. Arrangements will be in place to ensure that the changes made by the No. 5 Regulations are operationally effective as soon as they come into force.
Published 23 November 2021
Tyanilth
Member
Hi there - looking for recommendations as finally retiring my old Bahill sportsman and looking for a modern trailer.
Tow car is a Saab 95 2010, tow capacity 1800 kg
B & E license.
Horse is a 17hh ISH, approx weight 700 kg
Only towing 1 horse.
Budget of about 4 k to buy trailer.
What trailer should I look for that will manage the above?
Tow car is a Saab 95 2010, tow capacity 1800 kg
B & E license.
Horse is a 17hh ISH, approx weight 700 kg
Only towing 1 horse.
Budget of about 4 k to buy trailer.
What trailer should I look for that will manage the above?
ROG
Well-Known Member
There are many from singles to doubles
I would limit to 1000kgs for an empty trailer but there are not that many above that
Tyanilth
Member
Thanks. I’ll start peering at manufacturers spec sheets
DaisyO
New User
Hi Rog, hoping for some clarity on towing!
Looking to buy an Ifor Williams 505 and a towing vehicle.
Looking at a Mitsubishi L200 which has a towing capacity of 2700.
Most of the time will be towing 1 16.2 horse (around 620kgs) but occasionally might like to take another similar sized horse with us. Is the L200 capable of this? Or is it only the newer L200 with the higher towing capacity (I think 3.1t) capable? (They are sadly out of my budget!)
And can I do this on my license without the towing test? (If not, my other half will have to drive all the time as he has B+E).
Thank you in advance!
Looking to buy an Ifor Williams 505 and a towing vehicle.
Looking at a Mitsubishi L200 which has a towing capacity of 2700.
Most of the time will be towing 1 16.2 horse (around 620kgs) but occasionally might like to take another similar sized horse with us. Is the L200 capable of this? Or is it only the newer L200 with the higher towing capacity (I think 3.1t) capable? (They are sadly out of my budget!)
And can I do this on my license without the towing test? (If not, my other half will have to drive all the time as he has B+E).
Thank you in advance!
ROG
Well-Known Member
Easily capable with both horses
Every car driver now has B+E
ROG
Well-Known Member
For all those with down plated trailers you now have the choice to have them re-plated to their original MAM
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
What a palaver.
Stripe37
New User
Hoping for some help on towing vehicle as my old jeep has died as I think I've thoroughly confused myself.
I have an old ifor HB505 which is 905kg unladen and can take up to 1000kg. Giving a total of 1905kg. My plan is to tow 1x horse of around 500kg and occasionally another horse of the same size/ weight.
Am I right in thinking that the maximum weight of trailer & load must be no more than 85% of the kerbweight of the vehicle?
So from my understanding, based on the 85% rule; Mitsibushi outlander is coming in a 1600kg for kerb weight- giving a tow weight of approx 1300kg. Vauxhall antara is coming in a 1700kg for kerb weight- giving a tow weight of 1450kg. Isuzu dmax are around 1900kg for kerbweights- giving a tow weight of 1600kg.
Am I looking at the right thing when trying to determine whether a vehicle would safely tow what I'd like it to? If not, what should I be looking at and taking into consideration.
Thanks in advance to anyone who can shed any light on this.
I have an old ifor HB505 which is 905kg unladen and can take up to 1000kg. Giving a total of 1905kg. My plan is to tow 1x horse of around 500kg and occasionally another horse of the same size/ weight.
Am I right in thinking that the maximum weight of trailer & load must be no more than 85% of the kerbweight of the vehicle?
So from my understanding, based on the 85% rule; Mitsibushi outlander is coming in a 1600kg for kerb weight- giving a tow weight of approx 1300kg. Vauxhall antara is coming in a 1700kg for kerb weight- giving a tow weight of 1450kg. Isuzu dmax are around 1900kg for kerbweights- giving a tow weight of 1600kg.
Am I looking at the right thing when trying to determine whether a vehicle would safely tow what I'd like it to? If not, what should I be looking at and taking into consideration.
Thanks in advance to anyone who can shed any light on this.
ROG
Well-Known Member
The 85% advice is for caravans only due to them being big lightweight bubbles
As long as the vehicle you get has a towing capacity of 905+500+500=1905 plus a bit more for extras so lets say 2000 then all should be well
HB505 should be 905 empty and 2340 max when loaded unless it has been down plated at some point
Stripe37
New User
Ah, I didn't realise that was for caravans only. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
I will double check the plating.
So, given the 85% caravan rule doesn't apply to trailers. What should I be looking at & taking into consideration when looking for a towing vehicle?
Pippity
Well-Known Member
Hi ROG,
This is a potentially daft question. If my car can legally tow 1400kg, does that apply to the actual weight of the trailer or the maximum gross weight?
Car is a VW Golf, 1.5l automatic, kerb weight 1280kg, braked load limit 1400kg.
Trailer is, eg, Cheval Liberte Touring One, unladen weight 750kg, maximum gross weight 1600kg.
Would I have to have the trailer downplated to tow it, even empty?
(I'm not planning on the Golf being a long-term towing vehicle, because I know it's far from ideal, but just feeling out a few possibilities.)
This is a potentially daft question. If my car can legally tow 1400kg, does that apply to the actual weight of the trailer or the maximum gross weight?
Car is a VW Golf, 1.5l automatic, kerb weight 1280kg, braked load limit 1400kg.
Trailer is, eg, Cheval Liberte Touring One, unladen weight 750kg, maximum gross weight 1600kg.
Would I have to have the trailer downplated to tow it, even empty?
(I'm not planning on the Golf being a long-term towing vehicle, because I know it's far from ideal, but just feeling out a few possibilities.)
ROG
Well-Known Member
The vehicle max towing limit applies to the actual total weight not the plated weight
Legal example
Vehicle max towing limit 2000
Trailer plated at 3500 MAM
Trailer empty 1000
Max load into trailer 1000
Pippity
Well-Known Member
Great, thank you very much!
Elementary
New User
My only concern with relatively lightweight vehicles compared to trailer combinations is this experience. Towing with a Jeep Grand Cherokee (mass in service 2347, mpm 2949, max towing capacity 3500kg), Ifor williams 506 weight 920kg unladen + one irish sport horse 6.1 approx 620kg on the tape (so total 1540kg). Travelling down the motorway I had a fire engine start its sirens when right beside me. (Do they get no training for the possible consequences?) My normally stoic eventer made such violent movements that the rear of the vehicle plunged lifting the front wheels such that the steering went light. Thank goodness we were travelling straight and the vehicle was heavy and long enough to deal with the issue. I did not lose steerage at any time but it was close. I am looking for a replacement vehicle due to age. Another concern I have is the very low listed maximum towball load on many vehicles. This is fine for static load caravans etc. but horses are dynamic as I experienced. Who knows what load was placed on the Jeep towball sufficient to drop the rear and lift the front end to such a degree?
ROG
Well-Known Member
Sorry but I had to quote to split up the - sea of text - so I could read it ok
stimpy
Well-Known Member
Hi ROG
Can I please double check this as there seems tobe so much mis-infomration around this. I have a Freelander 2 so max tow limit is 2000kg. Can I tow an old Ifor Williams 505 which has a Max Gross Weight higher than the max towing capacity of the Freelander as long as the weight of the trailer plus horses is less than 2000kg? I have two ponies to tow, combined weight of the horses is approx 780kg so I'm working on 800Kg. Trailer MGW is 2340, unladen 905. Reading your explanation above I think it's OK but would really appreciate your definitive opinion as so many people say it's not legal and it's why Freelanders are less than ideal for horse folk.
Does the load in the car contribute to the weight calculations? I'm wondering whether if I have all the tack and water in the car does this impact on the sums to determine whether the trailer is legal.
ROG
Well-Known Member
Load in car is separate and comes under the car GVW (max weight for car including the load/people
If I remember correctly the empty weight of a 505 is 1000 so 1000+800=1800 and under the max tow capacity of 2000
Some numpties think that because the trailer has a greater MAM than the vehicle tow limit that it has the CAPACITY of being overloaded well, my car has the CAPACITY of doing up to 150 mph so does that mean I can get done for doing 30 in a 30 limit? - I think not !
stimpy
Well-Known Member
Thanks so much ROG, the fact that you run this thread is much appreciated!
SibeliusMB
Well-Known Member
For @ROG or whoever has experience with these models...
I'm looking to purchase a tow vehicle to pull two full size horses (est. 600 kg each) and an equitrek trailer (rental, exact model unknown at this time).
I've put a deposit down on a used 2008 Range Rover Sport L320, with a 3.6L diesel, good MOT and service history and from a reputable dealer. The RRS puts out 286bhp and 472 lbs of torque, which makes my American, big-truck loving heart feel better. However, after researching more, I'm wondering if the slightly larger Range Rover L322 (with 3.6L diesel) is the better towing option? The L322 has about 14cm longer wheelbase and about 260+ pounds on the L320.
I like having more power and control than actually required. I usually prefer a longer wheelbase as well. Is the L320 perfectly good and am I completely overthinking this? Or is the L322 the superior tow vehicle?
Regardless of model, which brand/model of fixed tow bar and electrics hookup do I need for heavy duty towing?
Thank you all!
I'm looking to purchase a tow vehicle to pull two full size horses (est. 600 kg each) and an equitrek trailer (rental, exact model unknown at this time).
I've put a deposit down on a used 2008 Range Rover Sport L320, with a 3.6L diesel, good MOT and service history and from a reputable dealer. The RRS puts out 286bhp and 472 lbs of torque, which makes my American, big-truck loving heart feel better. However, after researching more, I'm wondering if the slightly larger Range Rover L322 (with 3.6L diesel) is the better towing option? The L322 has about 14cm longer wheelbase and about 260+ pounds on the L320.
I like having more power and control than actually required. I usually prefer a longer wheelbase as well. Is the L320 perfectly good and am I completely overthinking this? Or is the L322 the superior tow vehicle?
Regardless of model, which brand/model of fixed tow bar and electrics hookup do I need for heavy duty towing?
Thank you all!
ROG
Well-Known Member
I cannot help with this issue perhaps another can
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Not sure if I can help either. Two 600kg horses isn't that heavy duty tbh and either of those beasts could handle it. It really is what you are comfortable with taking into account your trailer weight.
My first instinct was "heck - tow as many horses as you like with all that!"... the law however says if your licence is pre-1997 you can... (up to 8250kg) but if after, it's still only 3500kg and even if you no longer need a B+E test (painful that I paid for a test). So consider vehicle weight - larger is often heavier which costs you a bit in payload - check your MAM. That's the key bit. If ever you get pulled over the police will check this first.
Correct me if I am wrong the good people of HHO.
My first instinct was "heck - tow as many horses as you like with all that!"... the law however says if your licence is pre-1997 you can... (up to 8250kg) but if after, it's still only 3500kg and even if you no longer need a B+E test (painful that I paid for a test). So consider vehicle weight - larger is often heavier which costs you a bit in payload - check your MAM. That's the key bit. If ever you get pulled over the police will check this first.
Correct me if I am wrong the good people of HHO.
ROG
Well-Known Member
B+E is max 3500 vehicle and max 3500 trailer unless it is a pre 97 licence and the trailer has more than over-run brakes such as air brakes with a vehicle legally capable of towing such a trailer so in reality that is not going to happen in the UK