Welfare issues with polo?

[Evie91]

Cptrayes I have to disagree. Recently there was a thread with a dressage horse with a blue tongue due to be strapped down. It was being ridden at what looked like a competition.
Personally what I've seen from the polo pics you have posted is preferable to that! Although none is agreeable!

 

[cptrayes]

So the fact cruelty goes on behind closed doors is ok?

Please can we have a better argument than this?

If cruelty is less in the ring in other sports but goes on behind closed doors, and cruelty, or what I perceive as abusive riding goes on in the arena in front of a paying crowd in polo, then how much more goes on behind closed doors?

NO deliberate abuse of a horse is acceptable. Of course what one person considers abuse is different from another, which is why I agreed to differ days ago.

 

[cptrayes]

Cptrayes I have to disagree. Recently there was a thread with a dressage horse with a blue tongue due to be strapped down. It was being ridden at what looked like a competition.
Personally what I've seen from the polo pics you have posted is preferable to that! Although none is agreeable!

Not in the ring as part of the sport that the crowd paid to see. If it had been seen by a judge the test would have been stopped, as it once was with Parzival because he had bitten his tongue and had the tiniest amount of blood on his mouth.

The blue tongue stuff is condemned by everyone and against the rules even in the warm up. Stewards have the authority to stop it. Whether they do or not is another matter.

In polo, it is not against the rules, it is simply accepted as part and parcel of the game.

 

[cptrayes]

I am intrigued to know why you singled out polo when you agree with others that all disciplines have welfare issues?

This thread is about polo. How can I write about every abuse in every sport I see and make any coherent argument? Look back in my posting history for my attitude to abuse in other sports, you'll find plenty.

You'll also find plenty of disagreement with people who think horses should never be hit. I am no fluffy bunny.

I started the thread because I could not understand how what I consider is abusive to horses was necessary in order to play the game. And from people within polo itself I found out that it isn't.

At that point, I left the discussion, agreeing in an adult fashion to agree to disagree. Would that other people could do the same.

 

[teabiscuit]

I have seen ugly riding at prelim/novice BD comps. I had to walk away. Nothing that you
I don't like to watch polo, the riders look too big and the ponies do look pulled about. But I don't know the first thing about the game.

 

[khalswitz]

I have never seen anything during the course of a dressage competition happen in the ring in front of an audience that remotely compares to the pictures I put up above. And if I had, the horse would have been eliminated and the rider probably banned for a period.

Interestingly, I have. Not at higher levels, but I have at grassroots. I regularly judge write, and commonly see riders with hands by their knees, sawing on mouths in a blunt snaffle, with horses' mouths strapped shut. I think that is equally as bad, and IME far more prevalent.

In SJ, I regularly see draw reins in warm-ups, hauling horses in. I've even seen a double bridle with both reins through a martingale, and draw reins through the leverage end of an elevator. Both I'd say horrific.

And these are the things you see in the warm-up/the ring where public are watching, not behind closed doors.

Interestingly, and again IME, it is lower, more grassroots level polo that is more likely to be a problem, too.

Not that either circumstance exhumes the other, but that every sport has it's welfare issues. This doesn't mean preventatives shouldn't be sought, but that, unfortunately, no horse sports are problem free.

However, I will agree re: the weight limit thing. That could be something worth considering. However, I still don't think you'd ever see a weight limit below 16 stone or so, unfortunately - polo is very male-dominated!

 

[teabiscuit]

I have seen ugly riding at prelim/novice BD comps. I had to walk away. Nothing that you could report anyone for, but I felt so sorry for the horses. Riders too big, riding like a sack of spuds banging on unmuscled backs, see sawing reins ... I could go on and on. It seems parr for the course.
I don't like to watch polo, the riders look too big and the ponies do look pulled about. They do look balanced though. But I don't know the first thing about the game.

Two wrongs don't make a right
and this thread is about polo, not polo vs dressage, which is more ghastly for the horses.

Still, I do see similarities. Strapping down with flash nosebands, forced into the desired frame. I could go on and on.

I guess some polo fans feel just as strongly that dressage has welfare issues to deal with too. And I'd agree with them.

 

[SpringArising]

I have seen ugly riding at prelim/novice BD comps. I had to walk away. Nothing that you could report anyone for, but I felt so sorry for the horses. Riders too big, riding like a sack of spuds banging on unmuscled backs, see sawing reins ... I could go on and on. It seems parr for the course.
I don't like to watch polo, the riders look too big and the ponies do look pulled about. They do look balanced though. But I don't know the first thing about the game.

Two wrongs don't make a right
and this thread is about polo, not polo vs dressage, which is more ghastly for the horses.

Still, I do see similarities. Strapping down with flash nosebands, forced into the desired frame. I could go on and on.

I guess some polo fans feel just as strongly that dressage has welfare issues to deal with too. And I'd agree with them.

I agree with everything you said. Polo is by no means the only sport where ugly things are seen.

There's an issue with the way horses are treated every discipline, whether it be dressage, SJ, XC, racing or hunting. I've seen and watched some vile things from hunting lately (some of them being far worse than polo), but that still doesn't mean the welfare couldn't be improved for polo.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

I have seen ugly riding at prelim/novice BD comps. I had to walk away. Nothing that you could report anyone for, but I felt so sorry for the horses. Riders too big, riding like a sack of spuds banging on unmuscled backs, see sawing reins ... I could go on and on. It seems parr for the course.
I don't like to watch polo, the riders look too big and the ponies do look pulled about. They do look balanced though. But I don't know the first thing about the game.

Two wrongs don't make a right
and this thread is about polo, not polo vs dressage, which is more ghastly for the horses.

Still, I do see similarities. Strapping down with flash nosebands, forced into the desired frame. I could go on and on.

I guess some polo fans feel just as strongly that dressage has welfare issues to deal with too. And I'd agree with them.

You may not know the game but you understand riding that could be detrimental to the horses wellbeing. Doesn't matter what activity the horse is doing, welfare should be the priority - though I do realise that this is wishful thinking, sadly.

 

[Mariposa]

Not in the ring as part of the sport that the crowd paid to see. If it had been seen by a judge the test would have been stopped, as it once was with Parzival because he had bitten his tongue and had the tiniest amount of blood on his mouth.

The blue tongue stuff is condemned by everyone and against the rules even in the warm up. Stewards have the authority to stop it. Whether they do or not is another matter.

In polo, it is not against the rules, it is simply accepted as part and parcel of the game.

Actually there are stringent pony welfare rules in place, and every member of the HPA receives a blue book of Pony Welfare rules, and each club has a Welfare Officer.

Umpires and Welfare Officers will send off a pony who they see in any distress.

Some of those rules are ( and I'm not sure if this is of interest but given we seem to be discussing whether a pony's welfare is taken into consideration they seem pertinent)
Turnout and Prohibited Tack.
Ponies are expected to be well turned out and poor or badly fitted tack is not allowed (see note for best playing or turned out pony). Each pony must be protected by bandages or boots on all four legs and it must have its tail put up.
Any equipment that has sharp projections which might cause injury to the pony or any other ponyor player is forbidden.

The following are not allowed to be used during any game:
(i)A noseband, headpiece or headcollar which incorporates wire or any sharp material.
(ii)A hackamore or bitless bridle (may be used in practice chukkas at the discretion of the club).
(iii)Blinkers or any form of noseband or other equipment which obstructs the vision of the pony.
(iv)The mouthpiece of any bit, whether single or double, of not less than 0.25 inch (6.50 mm)
in diameter at its narrowest point.
(v)The total cheek length of a curb bit may not exceed 6 inches (15.2cms).
(vi)A tongue tie unless inspected by a MRCVS immediately prior to the chukka. The tongue tie must be removed as soon as the pony leaves the field of play.
10g.
Pony to Be Sent Off.
A pony suffering from any of the followingconditions is not permitted to play and if playing must be sent off immediately:
(i)Lame
(ii)Showing signs of distress
(iii)Not under proper control or showing vice
(iv)Showing blood from any part

Like I said, I'm not sure if this will be of interest, but thought I'd attempt to illustrate that actually welfare and pony's health are taken pretty seriously in polo, and I hope that this helps a little to show that.

 

[Evie91]

Just to add a non horsey perspective; my husband who is completely non horsey, refuses to watch most dressage as he thinks it's cruel. He thinks piaffe movements are unnatural to the horse and believes it must put stress on the muscles and skeleton to perform such controlled movements. However, he will watch cross country, racing, polo as in his eyes the horse also seems to be enjoying it too and he feels running and jumping come more naturally.

 

[SpringArising]

The following are not allowed to be used during any game:

(i)A noseband, headpiece or headcollar which incorporates wire or any sharp material.

This is hardly a strict rule; it almost sounds comical because I can't imagine that anyone has something like this anyway, in any discipline.

Showing signs of distress

Define distress. We've seen plenty which hasn't been pulled up on.

 

[SpringArising]

as in his eyes the horse also seems to be enjoying it too

Your husband sounds very sweet for caring, but novices/non horsey people don't see the signs of distress or discomfort that we can.

 

[cptrayes]

Thanks for the rules Mariposa, they are interesting.

I think the crux of the discussion on this thread hinges around each individual's definition of distress.

I could not agree from what I see on videos that ponies in distress are removed from the field, but I do agree that the distress from each incident is not prolonged. I remain concerned about heavy riders on slightly built horses.

Again, I am happy to agree to differ.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

Not at all. I really do wonder if some of you 'horsemen' can actually see beyond the 'pretty pony' style of horse keeping.

You would gain far more respect by campaigning for the welfare of horses like that poor mare or the thousands of horses that have never seen the inside of a feed bucket or heard a kind word in their, often very short, lives.

Your expertise, experience and opinions on polo, racing, hunting, eventing, dressage the Kings Troop, western riding, lets add showjumping, I am watching Aachen at the moment, bit of rolkur going on and plenty of yanking and pulling going on, is shall we say, a little suspect judging by some of the ridiculous statements being spouted.

All the equines taking part in the aforementioned activities will have been fed, kept warm, given shelter and veterinary care as required and in return they work for our pleasure, gratification, monetary gain and prestige. So shall we ban horse sports. Shall we stop breeding high calibre equines. What shall we do the millions of horses, put them in a paddock, admire them from afar, put a bit of bling on them, I will let you decide.

That mare has stood in muck for months, starved and neglected, there are many more like her. It is her and her like that need welfare care.

Cruelty is cruelty - it comes in many disguises. The animals welfare has to be paramount, not the humans ego.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

Actually there are stringent pony welfare rules in place, and every member of the HPA receives a blue book of Pony Welfare rules, and each club has a Welfare Officer.

Umpires and Welfare Officers will send off a pony who they see in any distress.

Some of those rules are ( and I'm not sure if this is of interest but given we seem to be discussing whether a pony's welfare is taken into consideration they seem pertinent)
Turnout and Prohibited Tack.
Ponies are expected to be well turned out and poor or badly fitted tack is not allowed (see note for best playing or turned out pony). Each pony must be protected by bandages or boots on all four legs and it must have its tail put up.
Any equipment that has sharp projections which might cause injury to the pony or any other ponyor player is forbidden.

The following are not allowed to be used during any game:
(i)A noseband, headpiece or headcollar which incorporates wire or any sharp material.
(ii)A hackamore or bitless bridle (may be used in practice chukkas at the discretion of the club).
(iii)Blinkers or any form of noseband or other equipment which obstructs the vision of the pony.
(iv)The mouthpiece of any bit, whether single or double, of not less than 0.25 inch (6.50 mm)
in diameter at its narrowest point.
(v)The total cheek length of a curb bit may not exceed 6 inches (15.2cms).
(vi)A tongue tie unless inspected by a MRCVS immediately prior to the chukka. The tongue tie must be removed as soon as the pony leaves the field of play.
10g.
Pony to Be Sent Off.
A pony suffering from any of the followingconditions is not permitted to play and if playing must be sent off immediately:
(i)Lame
(ii)Showing signs of distress
(iii)Not under proper control or showing vice
(iv)Showing blood from any part

Like I said, I'm not sure if this will be of interest, but thought I'd attempt to illustrate that actually welfare and pony's health are taken pretty seriously in polo, and I hope that this helps a little to show that.

Its all a bit airy fairy though & based on an individuals opinion at the time.

Any bit can be severe in hard hands & bitless bridles work in different ways. Polo isn't about the horses wellbeing but more to do with the glitz & glam. Fair enough. But at least have the balls & admit it.

 

[Mariposa]

I think the crux of the discussion on this thread hinges around each individual's definition of distress.

Yes, I think so. Personally I don't find polo ponies to be hugely distressed on the ground -but that is in my experience and my definition of distress. I love each of my ponies as much as any of the horse owners on this forum, and they are very much treated as individuals, not just a job lot.

That's not to say that polo ponies have an easy life, they play hard - often on hard ground, at speed.

I also think there is much to be desired about the way some ponies are wintered, but then I am a soft touch with mine, they are rugged up, fed twice daily throughout the winter and bought in when it gets too cold/wet. But I'd rather have people think I was a soft touch than feel my ponies weren't ok. Educating the younger players is paramount in my opinion so they know that stable management is more important than goals.

Its all a bit airy fairy though & based on an individuals opinion at the time.

Any bit can be severe in hard hands & bitless bridles work in different ways. Polo isn't about the horses wellbeing but more to do with the glitz & glam. Fair enough. But at least have the balls & admit it.

No, polo for me is anything BUT glitz and glam. Clearly you're talking about high goal, not grass roots low goal polo. High Goal is a tiny percentage of the season ( it ends in the UK today with the final of the Gold Cup...the low goal season stretches through to September). I couldn't give a toss about glitz and glam, I play because I love it. Maybe the spectators are there for the 'glam' but grooms and players...no.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

Yes, I think so. Personally I don't find polo ponies to be hugely distressed on the ground -but that is in my experience and my definition of distress. I love each of my ponies as much as any of the horse owners on this forum, and they are very much treated as individuals, not just a job lot.

That's not to say that polo ponies have an easy life, they play hard - often on hard ground, at speed.

I also think there is much to be desired about the way some ponies are wintered, but then I am a soft touch with mine, they are rugged up, fed twice daily throughout the winter and bought in when it gets too cold/wet. But I'd rather have people think I was a soft touch than feel my ponies weren't ok. Educating the younger players is paramount in my opinion so they know that stable management is more important than goals.


No, polo for me is anything BUT glitz and glam. Clearly you're talking about high goal, not grass roots low goal polo. High Goal is a tiny percentage of the season ( it ends in the UK today with the final of the Gold Cup...the low goal season stretches through to September). I couldn't give a toss about glitz and glam, I play because I love it. Maybe the spectators are there for the 'glam' but grooms and players...no.

You are right, my experiences as a spectator are high goal. But, distress is distress, hugely or not.

 

[Mariposa]

You are right, my experiences as a spectator are high goal. But, distress is distress, hugely or not.

And what is actual distress is something that we'll probably not see eye to eye on - but I do appreciate from seeing some photos of ponies with their mouths open that it would be possible to form that opinion, and those fleeting moments do nothing for the PR of the sport.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

And what is actual distress is something that we'll probably not see eye to eye on - but I do appreciate from seeing some photos of ponies with their mouths open that it would be possible to form that opinion, and those fleeting moments do nothing for the PR of the sport.

Or riders that are too heavy for their mounts?

 

[SO1]

Wow those rules imply that without the rules the lovely people who play polo might do those things. I don't even know what a tongue tie is but it does not sound very nice.

I was also wondering if at top levels of polo such as the international levels are there are dope testing on the horses to make sure people are not using medical substances to enable horses to compete when it is not in the best interest of the horse due to a medical condition?

I don't think polo is the only competitive equine sport that brings out the worst in people, it can happen in any discipline at any level if people get over competitive be it at Prelim dressage or International Polo and sometimes the desire to be competitive takes over and everything else is forgotten or becomes less important. The problem with equine sports is that we need an equine partner to do well and that partner has no say in how or what we do to get there and if things go wrong or we make an error of judgement then it tend to be the horse rather than the rider who suffers.

I think there are very few riders who compete who have never made an error of judgement that has had an impact on the horses and I include myself in this category even though I would be considered a "fluffy" horse owner by many and want to do the best for my horse.

Actually there are stringent pony welfare rules in place, and every member of the HPA receives a blue book of Pony Welfare rules, and each club has a Welfare Officer.

Umpires and Welfare Officers will send off a pony who they see in any distress.

Some of those rules are ( and I'm not sure if this is of interest but given we seem to be discussing whether a pony's welfare is taken into consideration they seem pertinent)
Turnout and Prohibited Tack.
Ponies are expected to be well turned out and poor or badly fitted tack is not allowed (see note for best playing or turned out pony). Each pony must be protected by bandages or boots on all four legs and it must have its tail put up.
Any equipment that has sharp projections which might cause injury to the pony or any other ponyor player is forbidden.

The following are not allowed to be used during any game:
(i)A noseband, headpiece or headcollar which incorporates wire or any sharp material.
(ii)A hackamore or bitless bridle (may be used in practice chukkas at the discretion of the club).
(iii)Blinkers or any form of noseband or other equipment which obstructs the vision of the pony.
(iv)The mouthpiece of any bit, whether single or double, of not less than 0.25 inch (6.50 mm)
in diameter at its narrowest point.
(v)The total cheek length of a curb bit may not exceed 6 inches (15.2cms).
(vi)A tongue tie unless inspected by a MRCVS immediately prior to the chukka. The tongue tie must be removed as soon as the pony leaves the field of play.
10g.
Pony to Be Sent Off.
A pony suffering from any of the followingconditions is not permitted to play and if playing must be sent off immediately:
(i)Lame
(ii)Showing signs of distress
(iii)Not under proper control or showing vice
(iv)Showing blood from any part

Like I said, I'm not sure if this will be of interest, but thought I'd attempt to illustrate that actually welfare and pony's health are taken pretty seriously in polo, and I hope that this helps a little to show that.

 

[Mariposa]

Or riders that are too heavy for their mounts?

No, because I've not had any experience or observed a player I thought was too heavy for their mount. My opinion is that a taller or heavier rider with balance and good hands is preferable over a thumping novice with heavy hands no matter how skinny they are - but again, that's my opinion ( and one I am sure you won't agree with of course!)

 

[Moomin1]

No, because I've not had any experience or observed a player I thought was too heavy for their mount. My opinion is that a taller or heavier rider with balance and good hands is preferable over a thumping novice with heavy hands no matter how skinny they are - but again, that's my opinion ( and one I am sure you won't agree with of course!)

And the problem is that there are polo players out there (as shown by many photos) that do not have good hands.

 

[SO1]

I agree in some respect but the experienced heavier riders must have been novices at polo at some point and what were they riding then? i presume not all polo players take up polo as when they are children so adult novice men I presume would learn on the standard light type of polo pony not a heavier riding school type?

No, because I've not had any experience or observed a player I thought was too heavy for their mount. My opinion is that a taller or heavier rider with balance and good hands is preferable over a thumping novice with heavy hands no matter how skinny they are - but again, that's my opinion ( and one I am sure you won't agree with of course!)

 

[Mariposa]

I agree in some respect but the experienced heavier riders must have been novices at polo at some point and what were they riding then? i presume not all polo players take up polo as when they are children so adult novice men I presume would learn on the standard light type of polo pony not a heavier riding school type?

A 'standard' polo pony would be a criollo ( below are some of Grange Farm's lovely criollos), usually from south american and chunky, tough type - they are quieter and thus the type polo schools and novices use. Not a lightweight pony by any means ( and my favourite type to play - I don't bounce anymore!)

TBs are certainly used alot, but not by novices. For example you'll see TB types in the medium/high goal - like this lovely fit mare of Facundo Pieres.

 

[Mariposa]

Wow those rules imply that without the rules the lovely people who play polo might do those things. I don't even know what a tongue tie is but it does not sound very nice.

I was also wondering if at top levels of polo such as the international levels are there are dope testing on the horses to make sure people are not using medical substances to enable horses to compete when it is not in the best interest of the horse due to a medical condition?

Sorry - only just saw this reply.

The FEI's website has their rules for all sports - all include welfare sections, but I'm sure that doesn't mean or imply that the lovely people who show jump/ event / etc would be abusing their horses without them...does it? I'd rather have guidelines in all disciplines that safeguard the horses.

And a tongue tie is mostly used in racing from my experience, from when a horse keeps putting their tongue over the bit. You'll often see it at the races, I've never seen it in any other discipline.

And lastly, yes there is dope testing in all levels of polo- for players and ponies.

And on that note I'm going to quit this thread as clearly it's going to go round and round in circles! People will have their own opinion of polo, and nothing I or any polo supporter says on here will change that.

 

[Nancykitt]

I must have misunderstood Nancykitt's post. I took it as a commentary on the way the thread has gone.

No, you were quite right, amandap, it was indeed a commentary on the way this post had gone. It had turned into a sort of 'x is more cruel than y' type of argument which I don't approve of on the basis that it is rare for anything of value to come from that type of argument. Especially if people's views are then followed by the 'two wrongs don't make a right' argument, borne out of the idea that people are saying 'if polo is cruel then so is dressage and that makes it OK'. But I don't think anyone is saying that - I think that some polo supporters were genuinely interested in why polo had been singled out as being worse than any other discipline, to the point of talk of it being 'banned'.

I know absolutely nothing about polo but I'm prepared to believe that there is good practice and bad practice. I have seen some really bad things out hunting, including novicey riders that are much too heavy for their horses hauling about on mouths with strong bits. But I've also seen some excellent riding out hunting. Some of the worst stuff I've seen has been at local shows, including pre-class lungeing in side reins that were ridiculously tight, lame ponies actually winning classes, and heavy handed riders pulling horses around in long shank pelhams with over-tight curb bits. I've also seen some good riding at shows. If I was to say 'all hunting, showing, dressage and eventing should be banned unless the undesirable practice stops immediately' I 'm sure I would be ridiculed. Initially, it is up to the organising bodies to regulate welfare within their sport and I think that any concerns must be tackled that way initially. 'Banning' anything is rarely a simple solution.

And Mariposa, yes, you are right, you clearly know a great deal about the sport and I have enjoyed your posts. But I think that there are some very firmly entrenched beliefs here. If 'agreeing to disagree' is the accepted outcome of the discussion it makes me wonder why we have these 'debates' at all.

 

[cptrayes]

. If 'agreeing to disagree' is the accepted outcome of the discussion it makes me wonder why we have these 'debates' at all.

Since I think I am the only person who has done this, I take it your comment is aimed at me?

Debate does not mean that views were entrenched before the discussion started.

Debate does not mean that the person who started the debate should change their mind if the other side do not put forward arguments strong enough to make this happen.

Quite the reverse has happened here. I started the thread to ask why polo ponies played with so much tack on, and far from being persuaded that it was needed, I have been told by people in polo that some ponies with greater aptitude play without it, and that less skilful players could play without it if they slowed the game down.

I think this means that ponies should be chosen so that only the ones with the aptitude to play without the restraints play, and that less skilful players should play a slower game without the excessive tack.

If people in polo disagree with that then I am happy to disagree with them and leave it there.

What is your problem with that? And why do you perceive 'entrenched views' on only one side of this debate?

 

[Nancykitt]

What is your problem with that? And why do you perceive 'entrenched views' on only one side of this debate?

I don't have a problem with it at all.

And no, I wasn't 'aiming' my post at anyone in particular.

And although I did say 'I think that there are some very firmly entrenched beliefs here' I would like to see where I've said that these are on one side only.

One problem with this sort of argument is that there is a great deal of sensitivity surrounding 'welfare issues'. While this is fundamentally a good thing, there's a danger that some people may perceive other's views along the lines of 'You don't care about horses' welfare as much as I do', which is bound to bring out some strong reactions.

Perhaps some people will be able to see what I'm getting at.

 

[tabithakat64]

How common is it for poor match riding of polo ponies to be corrected? Genuine question.

Bad/poor riding was picked up on by the yard manager and discussed post match. However, I have never seen anyone sent off by the referee/umpire for poor riding during a match.