fburton
Well-Known Member
In which case, I misinterpreted it rather badly, for which I apologize.
Welfare issues with polo?
- Thread starter cptrayes
- Start date
Nancykitt
Well-Known Member
Apologies fburton - having read your subsequent posts I thought that we were basically singing from the same sheet. Actually, I think that we probably are.
fburton
Well-Known Member
Yes, I think so too! It's just my initial response to your post #277 was poorly judged because it was based on a misunderstanding.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Mariposa - I've become more aware about the rules Re bitless bridles since I bought a horse that has very strong ideas about bits (he doesn't like them). I was wondering why they are banned for Polo? In my ignorance RE Polo, I can't see why they are banned as western riders can rapidly stop, spin, turn their horses etc... in a bitless bridle.
teapot
Well-Known Member
Put too much of a weight limit on polo and the sport could potentially go. Not saying all those who play are rich and overweight but it's known to happen and the term 'fat cat' isn't there for any old reason.
Also the rule book is here if you fancy a read, has a section on welfare and everything http://www.hpa-polo.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/HPA-Rules-2014.pdf
khalswitz
Well-Known Member
Possibly because of the requirement for a standing martingale. I know many types of milder bitless use noseband pressure do they not?
ester
Not slacking multitasking
yes but the same as with the drop nosebands you could have another one 
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
yes but the same as with the drop nosebands you could have another one
That was my thought - as long as they don't interfere with each other. Maybe it's not possible? I have seen endurance horses bitless with a headcollar underneath, so why not a cavesson?
This is a combination bitless/headcollar bride, but you can see how you could have a bitless bridle plus a cavesson for the standing to attach to.
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khalswitz
Well-Known Member
I suppose. But do most crossunders/sidepulls not sit in the same place as a cavesson? Does that mean one or the other would have to be fitted wrongly to have both together?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I'm not quite sure this stacks up very well as an argument for heavy riders being allowed to play, does it?
Did I read it wrong?
khalswitz
Well-Known Member
No, it's not an argument for it or a defines of it, merely a reason why a weight limit is unlikely to be successful, I assumed.
In a very male dominated sport a weight limit is unlikely to be practical, however there are surely more practical ways of promoting welfare, as has been mentioned with criollo ponies - why not have a minimum bone for certain weights, say?
ChesnutsRoasting
Well-Known Member
Crossunders are fitted lower & snug (in other words tight). Sidepulls are fitted similarly to a Cavesson. I'm not anti-bit & believe me,my life would have been easier if my horse didn't object to bits. There's ignorance & prejudice surrounding bitless bridles especially in established equestrian sports, hopefully the new blood will enlighten the old blood.
teapot
Well-Known Member
khalswitz
Well-Known Member
Well, if crossunders fit alongside a cavesson for a standing martinagle, and horse is happier in it, then I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed (except in dressage - I am afraid I am a purist there regarding bitless!).
My only other concern (and please tell me if I am wrong) would be the speed of the release of pressure. How quickly does a bitless like a crossunder release the pressure when contact is dropped? Obviously polo is a quick game, and very quick signals are given (hence the shanked bits, very quick responses are required, I always think similarly to how a double bridle allows for greater communication in the dressage ring a shanked bit does for western and polo, in a different way) so a cross under would need to be able to release very quickly?
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
There's so many different bitless bridles, I'm sure that there is something that would work.
BTW, I can't see any reason why you couldn't have bitless dressage? Maybe separate classes just to placate the purists. As i said owning my gelding has really opened my eyes to the world of bitless, i've got so much to learn still.
BTW, I can't see any reason why you couldn't have bitless dressage? Maybe separate classes just to placate the purists.
As i said owning my gelding has really opened my eyes to the world of bitless, i've got so much to learn still.
khalswitz
Well-Known Member
There's so many different bitless bridles, I'm sure that there is something that would work.
BTW, I can't see any reason why you couldn't have bitless dressage? Maybe separate classes just to placate the purists.
It's not bitless specifically that I oppose in dressage - but if leverage bits are banned, why should a bridle that puts pressure on the nose/jaw/poll be allowed? I know there are some very mild forms of bitless, but using pressure elsewhere on the head means the horse is not submitting to the bit, but to nose pressure/poll pressure/jaw pressure. And that's the case whether it is bit less or a gag or a say banned nosebands like grackles or kinetons.
Having watched a few videos of supposedly good quality dressage bitless in very mild bridle setups, I think there is a fairly obvious difference in the way of going in a bitless - the milder types argued as being suitable for dressage don't look subtle enough IMO and collection in one looks more difficult than it should be. I've seen videos of GP horses execute GP movements in one, with acceptable but poorer quality than bitted, and that is a horse who is trained in a bit for dressage - can you imagine how much trickier it would be for a horse that wasn't bitted at all, when a GP horse trained in a bit shows significantly lower quality work in one?
At low levels, in separate classes, if there was the demand, I would turn a blind eye. Unfortunately though I don't think bitless enthusiasts would be content with that, and therefore I think why offer a stepping stone.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
What about sidepulls? I'm not suggesting a german hackamore.
Who decided that pressure on the bars (gums) is OK but not pressure in the nose? Are they right? Quite frankly I think that if you are training the horse to respond to light aids and be submissive to those aids is whether the horse has something in it's mouth or not relevant? I would argue 'no'.
Maybe it's harder to get quality GP moves bitless, but if the trainer/owner accepts that and still wants to train bitless, what's the issue?
I have a horse with nice pases, he won't tolerate a bit but i wish that I could do some low level dressage with him, for fun and to further his training (it's nice to have goals and feedback to how you are progressing which dressage tests provide) without any condescending people 'turning a blind eye' but just simply accepting that bitless is valid.
Grrrr.... stepping stone..... grrrrrr... do you listen to yourself?..... *grumbles*
Who decided that pressure on the bars (gums) is OK but not pressure in the nose? Are they right? Quite frankly I think that if you are training the horse to respond to light aids and be submissive to those aids is whether the horse has something in it's mouth or not relevant? I would argue 'no'.
Maybe it's harder to get quality GP moves bitless, but if the trainer/owner accepts that and still wants to train bitless, what's the issue?
I have a horse with nice pases, he won't tolerate a bit but i wish that I could do some low level dressage with him, for fun and to further his training (it's nice to have goals and feedback to how you are progressing which dressage tests provide) without any condescending people 'turning a blind eye' but just simply accepting that bitless is valid.
Grrrr.... stepping stone..... grrrrrr... do you listen to yourself?..... *grumbles*
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Totally with you on this Faracat. I wouldn't ride bitless unless I had no option, but I fail to see why people are prevented from riding dressage bitless, since it does not seem to give any advantage in terms of scoring.
Regandal
Well-Known Member
Is there any research available on bits? Everyone who uses a bit should read this: http://www.naturalhorseworld.com/Downloads/ToBitorNottoBit.pdf I don't use a bitted bridle now.
khalswitz
Well-Known Member
Firstly, I wasn't suggesting german hackamores either. I was discussing the cross under bridle that my own bitless enthusiast friends say should be allowed. Still pressure on the jaw/nose. I haven't seen a side pull in action so cannot comment, is it strictly reins stitched to a noseband or is there a tightening action? If there is, I see no difference.
I do agree with you in that, yes, the decision as to pressure on the bars of the mouth being ok but not elsewhere has simply been made at some point and stuck to, but I think opening up dressage to bitless and not allowing use of leverage bits/ported mouthpieces/curb chains is a double standard. So if you have to draw a line, (which you do) I think where it is is pretty good, and more fair.
Regarding your comment about 'light aids', a horse going well in the contact is not what I'd call 'light'! Not the same as leaning, but a good contact should be firm as well as elastic, and the light contact favoured so often by bitless riders I have met is not that at all.
Equally, I think there's enough awful riding with the allowed tack at low levels - can you imagine how bitless would be abused by those kinds of riders?
Sorry if you don't like my opinion, it is people like you I do genuinely feel sorry for in that situation, but unfortunately most of the people I've met who want bitless dressage have DECIDED to ride bitless rather than being forced to by horse's preference, so I don't think they should have the rules changed to suit them. One of the central tenets of dressage is submission to the *bit*, and regardless of why or how that came about, it is central to dressage, and if a horse can't do that, then I don't think it should be competing dressage (sorry!).
We are also remembering here that good schooling and dressage are not the same thing. Your horse can be well schooled and correct in its way of going in any tack you like. But competing dressage not only must have a bit, but it is submission to the bit and not any other kind of pressure that is actively looked for.
Many RCs in my area allow riders to ride bitless if they ask ahead and go HC - if training and seeing scores is all you really worry about, then why not do that? Otherwise it really is wanting a stepping stone to competing fully in dressage bitless.
I have a lot of respect for you, Faracat, and I'm sorry if it offends you (I previously had a horse who was only happy in a cheltenham gag, and I couldn't compete dressage with him either, so I know your pain! He schooled to Medium plus his changes, but no way on earth could I have taken him in a dressage ring), but I would cringe if BD started allowing bitless in dressage.
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ChesnutsRoasting
Well-Known Member
I only have experience of the Dr Cooks bridle & the crossunders release quickly. What I don't like about the Dr Cooks is the fitting of the noseband - it has to be tight otherwise it rides up & the cheekpieces go all baggy!
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pip6
Well-Known Member
I've posted before, having been at a yard for 5 years that wintered, bred and rehabed polo ponies. Please can someone 'in the sport' explain to me why the owners always culled the colt foals at a few days old, they only wanted the fillies. To me this in itself should be banned.
In my experience, most ponies are chunky pony types, it is only at the highest level you see tb's. You'd be surprised at how coarse a lot of a good clubs ponies are. It does blow their brains though, they only know, slow jog, blat out once a rider is up. It's no surprise when they are suddenly asked for top gear so reguarly in a match. As I said before, our holiday makers were sent naked, if yo saw one not coping with winter she would lend a rug. They were beaten into submission by their foreign grooms, so yes were very quiet when not in use, but were also very head shy.
If you look at my first post you will see I witnessed a pony who had been rehabed as a pet after fracturing its leg and having bone fragments in it being taken when finally sound for arena polo. Then there was the 11hh pony at our yard whos owner was a polo pony owner, had dispute with yo so took pony (who was on successful loan with kid who'd saved her from laminitis) to her polo yard. Pony last seen in tiny area of dirt paddock with grooms taking her out into yard and charging her around after a ball.
I've been close to the industry for 5 years, so yes do feel qualified to comment on their welfare. I've seen one kind, loving (not fluffy bling) owner who really cared for her mounts. She knew their names and never referred to them as equine motorbikes (see first post). All the rest I'd never sell a horse to. As for an alternative for ex-racers. Like any high end sport they probably are well cared for, but you don't have to drop down far to find major welfare issues.
In my experience, most ponies are chunky pony types, it is only at the highest level you see tb's. You'd be surprised at how coarse a lot of a good clubs ponies are. It does blow their brains though, they only know, slow jog, blat out once a rider is up. It's no surprise when they are suddenly asked for top gear so reguarly in a match. As I said before, our holiday makers were sent naked, if yo saw one not coping with winter she would lend a rug. They were beaten into submission by their foreign grooms, so yes were very quiet when not in use, but were also very head shy.
If you look at my first post you will see I witnessed a pony who had been rehabed as a pet after fracturing its leg and having bone fragments in it being taken when finally sound for arena polo. Then there was the 11hh pony at our yard whos owner was a polo pony owner, had dispute with yo so took pony (who was on successful loan with kid who'd saved her from laminitis) to her polo yard. Pony last seen in tiny area of dirt paddock with grooms taking her out into yard and charging her around after a ball.
I've been close to the industry for 5 years, so yes do feel qualified to comment on their welfare. I've seen one kind, loving (not fluffy bling) owner who really cared for her mounts. She knew their names and never referred to them as equine motorbikes (see first post). All the rest I'd never sell a horse to. As for an alternative for ex-racers. Like any high end sport they probably are well cared for, but you don't have to drop down far to find major welfare issues.
GSLS
Well-Known Member
I saw a picture in the paper yesterday of Prince Harry on a polo pony and it really disturbed me.
The pony had on the following tack:
- side reins, quite short
- cavesson noseband with short standing martingale attached
- drop noseband closing the mouth on a Cheltenham gag bit.
It looked like a turkey trussed up for Christmas
If polo requires this level of tack to play , is it right? Is there a reason why it can't be played without strapping the horse down to within an inch of its life?
They're not side reins, they're runners
That sounds mild for polo anyway. A chelt gag is an elevating bit and the weakest in polo.
Having worked in polo there are horses that wear...
Long shanked Pelham with a curb the tightest it will physically go, raw hide nose band, raw hide drop, over tight cheek pieces, tongue tie, over tight standing, runners off the top hole of the Pelham so they only have a proper rein on the long shank, balance girth as tight as poss so the metal ring rotates and digs in, breast girth and over girth, ill fitting saddle too far forward and an Argie saddlecloth only underneath.
You have no idea....
Argies sew mare's vulvas up so they can be turned out with stallions. Like, what you're describing is so mild.
Plus they only really wear rowel spurs positioned on the heel / sole of their boot, not near the ankle.
Also polo ponies aren't allowed to be trotted as it "ruins their play".
I've groomed for a 6 goaler before and the England captain so I'm pretty clued up.
No longer work in polo any more as can't deal with the horses being so thin I'm clipping over their ribs and it leaves hair in between.
Plus polo isn't governed by the FEI it's governed by the HPA.
The players and patrons don't care about the horse's welfare it's awful
RE: bits I've seen a pony played in a Liverpool driving bit and curb chain no questions asked and that's at tournaments away from home too
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fburton
Well-Known Member
WTF?! :frown3: Not commonplace I hope...!
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Sorry to CPT for this tangent on your Polo thread.
K - I would argue that the 'submission to the bit' is not essential to dressage, 'submission to the aids' - yes. When you boil it down, dressage is training your horse to prance about an arena doing set moves and you are judged on your performance. I don't see a bit as essential and I don't see tradition as a good enough reason to disallow bitless classes. If people choose to ride their horses bitless, does that really matter? Why would training horses to prance around an arena be cringeworthy, I don't 'get' it?
You could easily say that you either have a bit OR nose pressure and that you can't have both. You could keep the bitless classes separate and have strict rules about what is and isn't allowed. Why shouldn't BD run this? Why shouldn't they have levels parallel to the bitted ones to progress up? Why is it such a big deal?
RE light aids - I broke my back as a teenager so have to ride with light hand aids, my back can't 'take' a strong contact and my legs are weak. i only started Dressage with the RDA, so maybe my experience of dressage is unusual, but lightness of aids was very much aimed for.
PS -I wasn't offended, just taken aback that you aren't more open minded on this issue. I'd never thought that you would be so entrenched in your views.
K - I would argue that the 'submission to the bit' is not essential to dressage, 'submission to the aids' - yes. When you boil it down, dressage is training your horse to prance about an arena doing set moves and you are judged on your performance. I don't see a bit as essential and I don't see tradition as a good enough reason to disallow bitless classes. If people choose to ride their horses bitless, does that really matter? Why would training horses to prance around an arena be cringeworthy, I don't 'get' it?
You could easily say that you either have a bit OR nose pressure and that you can't have both. You could keep the bitless classes separate and have strict rules about what is and isn't allowed. Why shouldn't BD run this? Why shouldn't they have levels parallel to the bitted ones to progress up? Why is it such a big deal?
RE light aids - I broke my back as a teenager so have to ride with light hand aids, my back can't 'take' a strong contact and my legs are weak. i only started Dressage with the RDA, so maybe my experience of dressage is unusual, but lightness of aids was very much aimed for.
PS -I wasn't offended, just taken aback that you aren't more open minded on this issue. I'd never thought that you would be so entrenched in your views.
Mariposa
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I've bitten my tongue for a few days but seriously? This is turning into a complete joke! Culling colt foals? I've never heard anything of the sort, and yes - I've worked in polo for over 20 years and we ourselves have bred polo ponies. Why on earth would colts be culled? Geldings are just as good on the polo ground as mares! Anyone culling any foals should be reported - this is nothing to do with polo.
Some mares in racing are caslicked (aka stitched) and some in polo - it had nothing to do with being 'turned out with stallions'! It's to prevent infections, stopping feces from getting into the vulva and causing an infection, or from sucking in air. There is some information on caslicking here http://www.critters360.com/index.php/the-caslicks-procedure-23813/
Um...wtf? Why would it 'ruin their play', what is 'their play' exactly? How do you think we get polo ponies fit? Being such an experienced groom as you claim how on earth did you get ponies fit without trotting them?
If you think polo ponies can't be trotted and they're stitched up to stop them being covered by stallions you clearly weren't a very clued up groom, I've have expected more from the Tomlinsons if you worked for Luke as you say!
Just...I can't even go there.
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ester
Not slacking multitasking
I can't see a caslick putting a stallion off much either!!??
cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
I don't know what the truth is here.
But now I know I NEVER want to go to a polo match.
But now I know I NEVER want to go to a polo match.
Mariposa
Well-Known Member
Goodness me neither!
This thread has taught me that we are all fatties who can't ride, have tiny ponies who aren't up to our weight, or ponies who are far too much for us and use 'bondage' to keep them under control, use bute to cover up any lameness, sew up our ponies vulvas because you know...we like to turn out the stallions with the mares for fun ( the stallions that we haven't culled at birth that is) we never trot them ( because where's the fun in trotting?!)...did I miss anything out? It's been a revelation to find out how awful we are!
I'm heading straight out to the field to apologise to my ponies, and I'm going to take up...endurance? That's a nice sport isn't it?!
Hedgewitch13
Well-Known Member
It's a very ugly 'sport' and not one I would want anything to do with