Welfare issues with polo?

[Suelin]

and may I add to Doormouse's excellent post, that many ponies, after retirement go to homes where they are used as safe all rounders and hacks. There is a a rehoming polo pony group which is very interesting to read about on facebook.

This also. We have one enjoying a very settled happy retirement.

 

[palo1]

Can someone please answer the question. Why can you not play without all those straps?

Well, you can and lots of people do but perhaps not at the big matches. As others have said, a great deal of riding in polo is done with weight and neck reining. When I played at uni, tack was fairly straightforward and we always got *******ed for any unintentional hauling of ponies. Polo players have big egos and are a very competitive lot but they really do know the value of a good pony. It is utterly counter-productive to make its job or attitude harder. You often see awful pictures, I agree but they are seconds in time. I see awful pictures of unhappy dressage horses, horrible falls in eventing etc too. 2 wrongs don't make a right, you are right but I think it helps to have a perspective other than sensational pictures of high goal/celebrity matches. The ponies I learnt on were cared for and valued in a pretty impressive way. And they adored playing too!

 

[Zero00000]

Llama

 

[Doormouse]

Well, you can and lots of people do but perhaps not at the big matches. As others have said, a great deal of riding in polo is done with weight and neck reining. When I played at uni, tack was fairly straightforward and we always got *******ed for any unintentional hauling of ponies. Polo players have big egos and are a very competitive lot but they really do know the value of a good pony. It is utterly counter-productive to make its job or attitude harder. You often see awful pictures, I agree but they are seconds in time. I see awful pictures of unhappy dressage horses, horrible falls in eventing etc too. 2 wrongs don't make a right, you are right but I think it helps to have a perspective other than sensational pictures of high goal/celebrity matches. The ponies I learnt on were cared for and valued in a pretty impressive way. And they adored playing too!

Excellently said.

 

[cptrayes]

Probably could, don't supposed anyone has tried as have never seen it as a welfare issue anymore than the eventers would be unlikely to go cross country in a bitless bridle or showjumping at high level or high level dressage in a snaffle.

WOW, and you think I don't know what I'm talking about

For your info, there are plenty of eventers and jumpers who go bitless, though the vast majority are in snaffles. And until recently double bridles were mandatory at higher levels in dressage, but since that rule was relaxed there are more also plenty of grand prix horses doing dressage in a snaffle. Though you might like to note that a double bridle is for fine tuning, not for hauling the horse around the arena. Any dressage horse showing its teeth and straining against the reins like a polo pony would be either bottom of the class or more probably sent out of the ring.

 

[palo1]

I have worked with polo ponies - and I will never do so again. In the one season I was there 4 ponies were killed from a single yard: 2 fell during play and broke shoulders (one of which when the rider specifically told the groom to take the studs out as he didn't need them), 1 died of ruptured kidneys when a player from the opposing team brought his stick down on the ponies back deliberately and the last did a tendon catastrophically.

Not only that but when there was a tournament at the local club we had visiting horses stabled with us. One had a tongue semi-severed from a bit injury and another had a 4" split up its cheek from the corner of its mouth, again from a bit injury.

At the end of the season, grazing was found for the ponies and they were to be left there for the winter. At the start of the season, a couple of the ponies were so thin it was 3 months begore they could go out in public.

No opinions there, only facts, but fairly damning don't you think?

That is truly dreadful to hear. My own experience was nothing like that, nor the experience of a close friend who worked in polo in the UK and Australia. Accidents and tragedies happen in all horse sports of course; too often horses pay too high a price for human pleasure but your experience sounds beyond that & inexcusable.

 

[Palindrome]

WOW, and you think I don't know what I'm talking about

For your info, there are plenty of eventers and jumpers who go bitless, though the vast majority are in snaffles. And until recently double bridles were mandatory at higher levels in dressage, but since that rule was relaxed there are more also plenty of grand prix horses doing dressage in a snaffle. Though you might like to note that a double bridle is for fine tuning, not for hauling the horse around the arena. Any dressage horse showing its teeth and straining against the reins like a polo pony would be either bottom of the class or more probably sent out of the ring.

I don't know at higher levels as I have only done some very low level. Someone as explained for the standing martingale, now for the bit used with 2 sets of reins I think it is because the horses are trained to a higher level (neck reining, collection) which requires a curb type bit, exactly like a good dressage horse in a double bridle or a reining horse in a curb.

Now, of course the horse won't look like a dressage horse when he is going full pelt galloping around, and it's not a dressage bred horse so conformationally different too (although some of the horses I rode would be fab dressage horses, fab transitions and piris). The bits used are harsher than what I would have chosen but the horses totally worked from the seat. They were responsive, well balanced, calm and confident. That's something you don't get from a horse in pain. It probably helped that the club chooses carefully the pony provider.

 

[mutley75]

If polo requires this level of tack to play , is it right? Is there a reason why it can't be played without strapping the horse down to within an inch of its life?

Yes, the rules say that any bridle must have 2 reins, even if it is a snaffle, a standing martingale is a required piece of tack. Ponies play in 4 reins, in a snaffle without a dropped noseband if that's what they go in. Pretty floored argument, bit like saying why do dressage ponies have to go in a double bridle if they school in a hackamore at home. That is why all the bondage gear, safety! Bit like reins have to be stitched no buckles for NH!

 

[bonny]

generalising here but a lot of polo is played by rich people who want to play polo, not ride horses, they learn to ride by playing and the ponies just learn to put up with being hauled around.....I appreciate not everyone but it's common. Hence, better players have to be hired to make up a team that can play at the bigger tournaments. A lot of the better ponies are from South America where they have a tough start in life and a tough life when they come over here.

 

[anotherday]

I really think people should not judge until they actually know what they are talking about. As in any equestrian sport, there will be bad riders and there will be people who are negligent. There will be good yards and bad yards, good experience and bad experiences. The same in any equestrian sport. Perhaps cptrayes should go and watch a good game and see how amazingly skilled/well looked after and happy the horses are. You sound very blinkered.
Yes, the tack may seem excessive but it's for safety. If you would go and have a look or try you would realise that there is no strength involved in stopping/turning the horse, they are trained very precisely to respond to the lightest of commands since they work as an extension of the rider- bearing in mind the rider has a stick, a ball and 7 other players to worry about all at high speed. BUT should the horse not be responding to such light commands the extra gear is there to prevent the possibility of a serious accident. Lets also not forget how many ex racehorses are given another chance due to polo. I think you will also find most polo ponies are impeccably mannered and enjoy their sport.
Please don't judge until you have tried.

 

[merlin12]

I used to work as a Polo groom ,there is good and bad in all equine sports. The horses I looked after were well cared for and happy and enjoyed their work. I now have a retired polo pony as a hack ,he is ridden in a snaffle. He is excellent the most responsive horse I have ever ridden . He responds to your weight and position in the saddle . These ponies don't wear that tack all the time ,it is just for matches. If a pony does not enjoy the game he would be rehomed to do a different job.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

A lot of the better ponies are from South America where they have a tough start in life and a tough life when they come over here.

I've seen this first hand, as I used to work on the most prestigious polo yard in the uk. The horses have to tow the line at all costs. The treatment of them that I witnessed was extremely harsh. From the schooling to the playing to the vet care. I've seen horses stood in their boxes for weeks on end weaving from the pain of being fired, for instance. The welfare of the horse is secondary to playing the game and winning. I get that though. It's not how I chose to look after my own horses but I get that people are fiercely competative and its a win at all costs mentality. The horse is simply a vehicle for achieving this. How harsh the tack is just simply isn't a consideration. How fast you can go, how quick you can stop and turn is really all that matters. Polo isn't dissimilar to many other equine activities. There's good and bad practices but some of the practices that go on would make you weep.

 

[cptrayes]

..... which requires a curb type bit, exactly like a good dressage horse in a double bridle or a reining horse in a curb.

The bits used are harsher than what I would have chosen but the horses totally worked from the seat. .

In the heat of a competitive game it is clear that these horses are very often not being worked from the seat, but hauled around by their mouths and at that point in time the straps are to enable that abuse to happen without the horse evading it. The comparison with dressage just does not stack up, I'm afraid.





It seems clear from the answers that it is possible to play without the restraints, but that it would be a slower and less exciting game.

For those telling me I need to play before I can criticize, I don't actually need to beat a child myself to know that beating a child is wrong. If your sport is as cleanly ridden as you say it is on the pitch, why is it so incredibly easy to find picture after picture after picture of horses with their mouths open (as far as they can), heads in the air, straining at all the restraints they are strapped down with while their riders of all levels haul them into a tight turn to gain competitive advantage. I've never gone looking for pictures except to check for this thread, they are ones published in the equestrian press that I have seen.

Can you see how downright ugly it looks to the general public? I'm no bunny hugger, but I really would like to see you play without all those straps.

 

[Moomin1]

In the heat of a competitive game it is clear that these horses are very often not being worked from the seat, but hauled around by their mouths and at that point in time the straps are to enable that abuse to happen without the horse evading it. The comparison with dressage just does not stack up, I'm afraid.





It seems clear from the answers that it is possible to play without the restraints, but that it would be a slower and less exciting game.

For those telling me I need to play before I can criticize, I don't actually need to beat a child myself to know that beating a child is wrong. If your sport is as cleanly ridden as you say it is on the pitch, why is it so incredibly easy to find picture after picture after picture of horses with their mouths open (as far as they can), heads in the air, straining at all the restraints they are strapped down with while their riders of all levels haul them into a tight turn to gain competitive advantage. I've never gone looking for pictures except to check for this thread, they are ones published in the equestrian press that I have seen.

Can you see how downright ugly it looks to the general public? I'm no bunny hugger, but I really would like to see you play without all those straps.

100% agree.

 

[amandap]

It seems clear from the answers that it is possible to play without the restraints, but that it would be a slower and less exciting game.

This is the nature of competition though. Equine sport involves using another living creature as a tool, there is always a conflict between how much and how to push the horse to win and the welfare of the horse.

 

[Toffee44]

Work very part time on polo yard with two strings of ponies on.

Glad to say both very well cared for and loved by both owner and grooms.

And they are in the semis to day.....*bag packed with beers and strawberries to go cheer them on* and lots of rescue remedy for the grooms haha.

 

[Moomin1]

This is the nature of competition though. Equine sport involves using another living creature as a tool, there is always a conflict between how much and how to push the horse to win and the welfare of the horse.

Yes there is, and polo oversteps the mark IMO

 

[fburton]

Oh the good old 'they enjoy it' argument.

This really is fundamental. Is it even possible to be truly objective about this? If so, how?

 

[Mariposa]

For those telling me I need to play before I can criticize, I don't actually need to beat a child myself to know that beating a child is wrong.

Seriously? You're comparing polo to beating a child?

I have seen plenty of happy hackers hauling their horses around as I drive past them on the road, seen plenty of showjumpers simultaneously with hugely overbitted horses see-sawing them, dressage horses overbent...the list could go on - NO discipline is without ugly riding!

Anyway, I'm typing this as my poor poor ponies are all lying flat out in their stables after their morning work, having a snooze to the dulcet tones of classic FM. They are all having a massage this afternoon from the equine sports therapist. Then the poor poor dears will be put out in the field in their fly sheets and fly masks, before getting their supper in the field later and a last check at 9. They might have to go to polo on Thursday, and even on the weekend if they can fit it in with their hectic schedule of sleeping, eating and being pampered. Tough life!

 

[MagicMelon]

It is a fast game and they need to be able to stop and turn on a sixpence when required. You quite simply wouldn't be able to stop some of the ponies I played in less tack when playing chukkas. Yes there will be incidents as there are in any equine sport, but at the top levels especially those ponies are worth a FORTUNE and are incredibly well looked after.

Why can't you compete in less tack? Yes horses get excited I can imagine but surely trained well, they would learn not to become strong enough to need all this stuff. A lot of horses get excited before and during XC but they can still be ridden in a snaffle. I think its just easier to chuck them in a more serious bit and strap their heads in the right place etc... Saying they're worth a fortune never means they're really well looked after. Racehorses and top level showjumpers etc. are worth a huge amount and people consider they live a life of luxury when personally I find their lives very sad in general - they lead very very unnatural lives which are spent being bored in stables and often never being allowed to do something as basic as eat grass and socialise with other horses... I can't say this is how polo ponies are kept as I don't know if this is usual for them too but the only ones I have seen where in Dubai where they looked utterly bored to death looking painfully skinny standing in stables with muzzles on so it was a huge effort to even eat a shred of hay... yet they were beautifully clean, where in immaculate gold painted stables and were ridden on beautifully maintained lush green paddocks which they were never allowed to graze on so they must lead a lovely life...

 

[JFTDWS]

It's not remotely logical to say "but you'd be flamed for schooling in that tack" - yes you would, because it would be completely counter-intuitive for dressage schooling to use that sort of tack, not least because it's not competition legal.

I imagine the standing is "standard" tack which is used for safety and is essential under the rules (I am extrapolating from horseball here where I believe this is the case). A standing martingale doesn't inhibit the horse under usual circs and is a common enough tool in many people's tack boxes. The bit, noseband and running reins aren't uncommon in many fields and many people openly rely on them in much less exciting situations than a chukka.

So who makes you the arbiter of what's acceptable and what's not? Some people think using spurs and a double in dressage is disgusting, others think it's unacceptable to jump or compete 4 year olds, you clearly don't like polo. That's fine - you're entitled to your own opinion - but without any solid proof that it is a welfare concern, it is pretty meaningless to the polo playing world

 

[RunToEarth]

It seems clear from the answers that it is possible to play without the restraints, but that it would be a slower and less exciting game.

A bit like Polocrosse then....?

For those telling me I need to play before I can criticize, I don't actually need to beat a child myself to know that beating a child is wrong.
Can you see how downright ugly it looks to the general public? I'm no bunny hugger, but I really would like to see you play without all those straps.

Hi cptrayes. I don't think you need anyone on here to point out that playing polo and beating children are not comparable, but I feel someone needs to, just in case.

In a game situation, with several horses going fast, it is necessary to have the ability to stop and turn quickly. You probably won't appreciate the effectiveness of an english gag and two sets of reins in a polo match until you have ridden a couple of chukkas and relied on it. Asides from the fact that it prevents a lot of nasty accidents, it also enables the game to be played effectively. I would compare it to most people bitting up their horses for hunting, in that it is always more sensible to have the stronger kit on, in case you need to use it, than not have any control and causing an accident ( a trait I have seen often on the bloodhounding scene when people wish to prove their horses a "snaffle mouth"). My sister is a member of a club, plays regularly and loves her horses - they are well looked after and asides from game days are all ridden in snaffles, stabled, rugged and don't lead a particularly difficult life.

 

[Moomin1]

A bit like Polocrosse then....?



Hi cptrayes. I don't think you need anyone on here to point out that playing polo and beating children are not comparable, but I feel someone needs to, just in case.

In a game situation, with several horses going fast, it is necessary to have the ability to stop and turn quickly. You probably won't appreciate the effectiveness of an english gag and two sets of reins in a polo match until you have ridden a couple of chukkas and relied on it. Asides from the fact that it prevents a lot of nasty accidents, it also enables the game to be played effectively. I would compare it to most people bitting up their horses for hunting, in that it is always more sensible to have the stronger kit on, in case you need to use it, than not have any control and causing an accident ( a trait I have seen often on the bloodhounding scene when people wish to prove their horses a "snaffle mouth"). My sister is a member of a club, plays regularly and loves her horses - they are well looked after and asides from game days are all ridden in snaffles, stabled, rugged and don't lead a particularly difficult life.

People keep referring to the fact the tack is necessary for the game - but how does this make it acceptable?

 

[LittleMonster]

I dont know much about the sport but the welfare is down to the individual owner of the ponies like any other horse.

Whilst hacking i have seen horse tacked up to their eyeballs and people smacking them with crops so again i think it down to the individual. (should we ban 'hacking'??) Also i thought the tack was to make sure that the rider could be in full control as they are mostly riding one handed (i find it difficult to do don't know about anyone else?)

And i also believe some horses/ponies may enjoy it, When i take K in the school and there are jumps he will prick up his ears and be very forward going. B used to love going up the gallops again ears prick and a bit bouncy (not the same scale i know)

But also if people did manage to get the sport banned, where do all the horses go? Charities are full, Pts?? for meat? we already have a crisis of animals why make it worse?
People have already ended the Hunt...
i dont agree with dressage (horse hauled around and stabbed in sides with spurs) or SJ (being whipped a lot from what i have seen) but again i don't know much about it and certainly wouldn't try and ban it because i disagreed. Those horses have a job and its been going on for years. in this day and age i think there are too many people looking at the bad side of things, there is worse things going on in the world this is the least of my concern TBH (it would be if i had concerns but to be honest i don't and i believe there is always a vet on site?? Correct me if im wrong?)

i believe they are happy and if they weren't they would show it for example: Racing a horse flipped himself to the floor to get the rider off, i believe he wasn't happy with his job, horses have their own mind and im sure they would be the first one to tell the rider they weren't happy.

Just my opinion...

 

[Moomin1]

It's not remotely logical to say "but you'd be flamed for schooling in that tack" - yes you would, because it would be completely counter-intuitive for dressage schooling to use that sort of tack, not least because it's not competition legal.

I imagine the standing is "standard" tack which is used for safety and is essential under the rules (I am extrapolating from horseball here where I believe this is the case). A standing martingale doesn't inhibit the horse under usual circs and is a common enough tool in many people's tack boxes. The bit, noseband and running reins aren't uncommon in many fields and many people openly rely on them in much less exciting situations than a chukka.

So who makes you the arbiter of what's acceptable and what's not? Some people think using spurs and a double in dressage is disgusting, others think it's unacceptable to jump or compete 4 year olds, you clearly don't like polo. That's fine - you're entitled to your own opinion - but without any solid proof that it is a welfare concern, it is pretty meaningless to the polo playing world

No, you'd be flamed for using that tack and having a horse react the way they do because it's a welfare issue, not because it's counter intuitive for schooling.

 

[amandap]

That's fine - you're entitled to your own opinion - but without any solid proof that it is a welfare concern, it is pretty meaningless to the polo playing world

This is always true of these discussions, those in that world see things differently to those outside of it. How much is lack of understanding and how much is what you see every day is normal and acceptable I am not sure.


The business arguments and fiercely competitive nature of humans will always win out in the end. All we can hope for is a better lot for horses.

I'm afraid whether horses truly enjoy this stuff is really irrelevant to us humans when it comes to our enjoyment and making a living.

 

[mairiwick]

The polo yard I worked on took great care of their horses. Certainly weren't stabled all the time and weaving as a previous poster has had experience of. During summer they all grazed out in a big herd overnight, came in during the day and some were stabled and some were in outside stalls - stable sized. They were ridden out in snaffle bridles and saddles - no excess tack. Hacked around the village and cantered on a local bridleway (before the surface was changed to loose stones - grr). When we took them for chukkas they did have extra tack on, overgirths too - yes for extra control if required but also for safety should any tack give way for any reason. They were hosed off after they came back in and kept well fed and watered. I can't speak for every yard and every team but I was really impressed with the level of care and the condition of the horses. I never noted any consequences of the additional tack on those horses and they would turn/pull up with a slight shift of weight (even with me riding them who had no experience of riding polo ponies before) or gentle move of the hand.

 

[RunToEarth]

People keep referring to the fact the tack is necessary for the game - but how does this make it acceptable?

I can only speak for the horses we have, because I don't categorically check the welfare of every polo pony in the country, however they are all healthy and as far as any human can tell happy, they do not appear to be affected by this tack you personally deem as unacceptable - I personally don't.

It boils down to a difference of opinion, like all other equestrian sports which people take umbrage to. Personally I would rather take my chances with my horse in "bondage" for a chukka than take my life in my hands and yomp down the A15 in partial light, however I seem to be in the minority with that school of thought...

 

[Bojingles]

CPTrayes, I feel your pain at the disingenuous dodging of your question and deliberate missing of the point. And Moomin, I often find myself disagreeing with you but I'm 100% with you on this!!!

 

[palo1]

I am not a passionate supporter of Polo per se although I loved the thrill when I played a bit for a few years. Whenever I played or spectated there was a huge amount of pride in effective and decent riding skill; that is a crucial and very necessary part of the game. Players and patrons are pretty intolerant of unnecessary rough riding and there is little affection for those players who are 'effective' if they are also hard on the ponies. The ponies are too valuable and it makes people angry to witness horse abuse.

The thing is that if you are galloping onto a ball (cos that's the game) and someone else is on course for a collision, what do you do? Pull up/move asap or allow a potentially serious accident? What do people do when they realise, across country that they have got it wrong or that they are on course for a fall? It seems very similar to me.

There is good and bad practice in all horse sports of course and 'welfare concerns' with all of them as far as I can see. That is because of people rather than the sport though.

In Polo, there are some nations and practices which are clearly cruel but then you can see that in every discipline and across all parts of the globe. In the UK, as many other countries, for a large part, Polo is a 'status symbol' sport - with both wealthy patrons who either have a true passion for the game and Polo 'culture' or who may want to use the game as a social 'entree' and the sportsmen who play either for themselves if they are rich enough or for their patrons. The patrons fork out huge amounts of money to enable them to participate and the sportsmen depend on their success to go up the rankings and to get more money, more playing opportunities etc. The ponies are either the property of patrons or players. They represent quite considerable investment and as an integral part of the game must be cared for.

Patrons do NOT like the approbation that cruelty brings them - it's bad for their social rise - at least in this country, and the players do not like or need to be criticised or left out because their pony skills are questionable. Some players are ambitious and play hard to win but a broken, injured or angry/upset pony is no use for anyone involved. Injuries happen and as always people do not always choose the best course of action for the pony. Show me a discipline that is different. That is not to say that it is acceptable.

The ponies have to be very highly trained, good playing mares are kept on for breeding and a huge number of players adore their ponies and have spent a great deal of time developing the ponies skills and maintaining them as long as possible. Its of no benefit to put a good or potentially good pony in a dangerous or injurious situation. Older, less good ponies are also useful - as they can be used for teaching and for new people entering the sport. The ponies tend to live as a gang - often turned away in the non-playing season and spend their working life with other horses; working only for short bursts of time.

I have seen equally awful images of eventers/dressage horses/showjumpers as well as the ignorant and rough handling you see from ordinary people who know no better or simply like to dominate a horse. People choose veterinary/management practices which are clearly detrimental to horse's health and happiness and I have seen hunters with dreadful saddle sores on their withers/severe bits and lame. Usually the owner says 'Oh he loves hunting so much, it would kill him to stop - he lives for jumping huge hedges' or something like that. There is appalling abuse of endurance horses in some instances too.

I am just not sure why you have picked on Polo OP.