Welfare issues with polo?

[RunToEarth]

Take the straps off. Play a slower game. Easy.

Given that you have (I am assuming from your posts on this thread) never played the game, your simplistic approach is perhaps forgivable. I for one would not want to be on a high goal pony using a bit milder than one which it has previously been played in - it would end up causing an accident?

I accept there is "bad" in all equine sports, however I don't believe welfare standards are a huge issue in the sport - are you basing all of this on a photo, or do you have statistics to boot?

 

[Moomin1]

Given that you have (I am assuming from your posts on this thread) never played the game, your simplistic approach is perhaps forgivable. I for one would not want to be on a high goal pony using a bit milder than one which it has previously been played in - it would end up causing an accident?

I accept there is "bad" in all equine sports, however I don't believe welfare standards are a huge issue in the sport - are you basing all of this on a photo, or do you have statistics to boot?

And what statistics would those be? How many horses have said they are uncomfortable? Lol!

 

[TT55]

Take the straps off. Play a slower game. Easy.

And I repeat... a ridiculous statement. Even if you were to take the running reins off (which a lot of polo ponies don't use anyway - it depends on the horse), a horse can still whip it's head up and whack you in the face at a slow speed. So yes a standing martingale is necessary.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

With all due respect, you are very naive if you think something is perfectly acceptable and faultless just because a charity says so. Who made them right?

umm, perhaps you should think again, nowhere have I said something is or is not acceptable, I posted that to show that a Welfare org is benefiting from it, perhaps suggesting that this sport is not all some people here are saying it is.

Please dont be so patronising another time, thanks

 

[cptrayes]

Given that you have (I am assuming from your posts on this thread) never played the game, your simplistic approach is perhaps forgivable. I for one would not want to be on a high goal pony using a bit milder than one which it has previously been played in - it would end up causing an accident?

I accept there is "bad" in all equine sports, however I don't believe welfare standards are a huge issue in the sport - are you basing all of this on a photo, or do you have statistics to boot?

.a. photo??????

Would there was only one, but your sport is absolutely drowning in photos of ponies being hauled about by their mouths.

When they appear in such numbers in the equestrian press, seeing a game live is one of the last things I'd want to do, I'm afraid.

 

[cptrayes]

......, a horse can still whip it's head up and whack you in the face at a slow speed. So yes a standing martingale is necessary.

Yes, I find that my dressage horses and riding club hacks are especially prone to do that if I haul them in the teeth.

My solution is not to haul them in the teeth, not to strap their heads down so they can't whack me in the face.

 

[TT55]

.a. photo??????

Would there was only one, but your sport is absolutely drowning in photos of ponies being hauled about by their mouths.

When they appear in such numbers in the equestrian press, seeing a game live is one of the last things I'd want to do, I'm afraid.

I don't know where you are looking? I just put 'polo' into google image search and of the 100 images or so i just skimmed through, there was only one where a horse looked uncomfortable.... Also just skimmed through the latest Polo Times and most of the pictures in there the horses are on a loose rein. So I don't know how you can say it's "drowning" in photos of ponies being hauled around by their mouths.

 

[TT55]

Yes, I find that my dressage horses and riding club hacks are especially prone to do that if I haul them in the teeth.

My solution is not to haul them in the teeth, not to strap their heads down so they can't whack me in the face.

I cant imagine you are regularly whipping bamboo canes under your horses necks or leaning down to get your head over a ball though are you?

 

[SpringArising]

I don't know where you are looking? I just put 'polo' into google image search and of the 100 images or so i just skimmed through, there was only one where a horse looked uncomfortable.... Also just skimmed through the latest Polo Times and most of the pictures in there the horses are on a loose rein. So I don't know how you can say it's "drowning" in photos of ponies being hauled around by their mouths.

I'm looking on Google. I typed in 'horse polo' and these alone came up on the first page:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__07fq12lprE/S9s9r5XkHFI/AAAAAAAAANA/rh2FPDpZGVo/s400/Polo+JPEG.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Polo_At_the_Kentucky_HOrse_Park_(5995905109).jpg
http://www.gamesguys.com/wp-content/thumbs/mochi/H/harry-william-polo-horse-game_img1.jpg
http://images.forwallpaper.com/files/images/2/2c3c/2c3c181a/1060070/polo-match.jpg

Not nice.

 

[RunToEarth]

.a. photo??????

Would there was only one, but your sport is absolutely drowning in photos of ponies being hauled about by their mouths.

When they appear in such numbers in the equestrian press, seeing a game live is one of the last things I'd want to do, I'm afraid.

It's not my sport, it is just one I do actually enjoy - I don't see that there is a welfare issue with the sport at all, I have never had a problem with "kit" on horses.

Beaver Hall on your average Saturday on the other hand, is an eye opening and scary experience if I ever saw one...

 

[PaddyMonty]

Loving some of the arguments in this thread.
I have no strong feelings for or against Polo as dont know enough about it but thought a different take on some of the comments pro polo might be interesting.
Lets take the well cared for and loved justification. I believe the birds used in chicken (avoiding swear filter) fighting were often very much treated like princes. I'm sure they enjoyed it to as they were very keen to kill each other.
Now for draw / running reins. These are banned from the competition ring in all 3 main disciplines. I believe only SJ allow them to be used in warmup. The reason draw reins are so effective is that the double the pressure a rider can exert on the horse through the bit. Nothing to do with light contact, all about the force applied to the bit.
Which brings me nicely on to the bits. Agree strong bits are seen in all 3 main disciplines. However, if the rider doing XC had to haul on said bit repeatedly at every fence they would very soon be stopped on course for either abuse or dangerous riding. Average SJ round lasts about 90 seconds. Dressage when using curb bit you are not allowed to strap mouth shut. Horse opening mouth to avoid harsh use of bit would be heavily penalised.
Polo providing a second chance for ex racehorses I really liked. Depending on your view of racing that could be seen as out of the frying pan and in to the fire.
Hunting? Nope wont even go there.
At the end of the day all horse that are ridden are subjected to discomfort/pain to some degree. The simple fact is they learn to respond to aids as a way to avoid the discomfort. Even the simple leg aid becomes light through the horse learning that if ignored an increased level of pressure will be applied. How do western and polo horses (and to some extent SJ) learn to do a screaming halt simply from the rider leaning back? Simple, they've learnt what happens if the request is ignored.
So at the end of the day it is up to the individual to decide just how much discomfort / pain they are prepared to subject a horse to in order to enjoy what ever discipline they do, even hacking.
The really sad thing for me is that many riders believe the dont subject their horse to any discomfort.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

It's not my sport, it is just one I do actually enjoy - I don't see that there is a welfare issue with the sport at all, I have never had a problem with "kit" on horses.

Beaver Hall on your average Saturday on the other hand, is an eye opening and scary experience if I ever saw one...

snort...............

there needs to be a bit of common sense here.

Dressage and polo are at opposite ends of the competitive spectrum. Most horss,e i personally think, can be taught to respond correctly to a snaffle bit, within the sedate confines of a dressage arena, or for gentle walk and trot hacking.

take some horses in to an atmosphere they find exciting (so an eventer XC, a SJ jumping, a polo pony to the start of a chukka) and we all know it 99% goes out the window.
safety must prevail and being able to stop quickly to avoid collisions, and not to have riders with broken noses, is important. Its all happening rather quicker than your average walk-trot transition or leg yield!

I doubt that every polo pony spends every moment of every match strained against its bit looking half mad...........given the constant accelerating and decelerating and bunching together of a lot of them in a relatively small space, there is almost bound to be one in most pics looking not 100% soft or balanced.

the comment about glass houses rings very true ...... i would imagine as many horses as socked in the teeth by eg dressage riders losing their temper and kicking a horse then yanking it back a step later (out of frustration at their own incompetence), or balancing on their mouths trying to sit ext trot, as there are polo ponies caught in the mouth by riders trying to stop turn and hit the ball simultaneously.

i know at least one person who has managed to flip a dressage horse over catching it in the mouth but dont think thats a regular occurance on the polo field?

2 wrongs dont make a right but to pick one sport out of all and hold it up as worse seems at best short sighted.

there is a depressing lack of good riding in all equestrian sports, i sometimes wonder how some people stay on for 2 consecutive circles, never mind jump or hack. Cheap horses are easy to come by and anything thats not brain dead is sold on at a loss labelled a rouge. Novices buy horses too quickly and some pig headed individuals ruin horses by refusing to ask for help.

people want to run before they can walk and no one wants to stick it out and solve the problems they create.

sadly i dont think thats a problem that will ever be solved!

sorry, tangent!

ETA that horses are here to do a job, its no longer ploughing and its now for pleasure not our work, but if no one had one to do any of these jobs there would be rather a problem with the industry collapsing. Like it not the trade off is that we care for them as long as they do the job.

 

[Moomin1]

I'm looking on Google. I typed in 'horse polo' and these alone came up on the first page:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__07fq12lprE/S9s9r5XkHFI/AAAAAAAAANA/rh2FPDpZGVo/s400/Polo+JPEG.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Polo_At_the_Kentucky_HOrse_Park_(5995905109).jpg
http://www.gamesguys.com/wp-content/thumbs/mochi/H/harry-william-polo-horse-game_img1.jpg
http://images.forwallpaper.com/files/images/2/2c3c/2c3c181a/1060070/polo-match.jpg

Not nice.

Agree completely - not nice images at all.

of those are quite clearly placing their weight onto the horse's mouth. Hardly 'neck reining' at it's finest, and as I have said earlier, any 'leisure rider' who posted a photo of themselves doing this on a normal hack or schooling would get completely battered on here.

ETA - I still can't understand why people are harking on about how 'it's necessary' to have all the tack on to prevent rider injury. Firstly, it's not the amount of tack that's an issue necessarily - it's how much discomfort it causes the horse that matters. Many many games of polo clearly show an uncomfortable looking horse. Whether this just be 'for a few minutes' whilst turning or stopping, I'm sorry, but that just isn't good enough. Secondly, using the argument that 'it's necessary' is not acceptable - if 'it's necessary' to cause a horse discomfort to do the sport, the sport should not be done. Thirdly, there's absolutely no point whatsoever using the argument that 'there are uncomfortable horses in other disciplines too'. Yes, of course there are, that doesn't make it right, and nobody on here is saying that other disciplines don't have that. However, it's all about how common it is, and all you need to do is watch a polo match to see that it's very common to see horses going about as seen in the images above. It's not just a 'moment in time' every now and again. It's common place.

 

[cptrayes]

2 wrongs dont make a right but to pick one sport out of all and hold it up as worse seems at best short sighted.

Nobody has. Most (all?) of the people unhappy about strapped down ponies on this thread have also expressed unhappiness at other times on other threads about practices in other horse sports.

 

[cptrayes]

horses are here to do a job, its no longer ploughing and its now for pleasure not our work, but if no one had one to do any of these jobs there would be rather a problem with the industry collapsing. Like it not the trade off is that we care for them as long as they do the job.

The horse industry would not collapse if polo was played without straps, dressage trained without rollkur, and horses had to be four years old before going on a race course.

There is a line between 'there for our amusement' and 'there for our abuse'.

 

[cptrayes]

Does anyone see the irony in the statement that not all the ponies are strapped down.?

Does this not mean that some of the ponies are inherently much better suited to the game than others? And would it not be the case if the strapping were banned, that people would then take more care to select, ride and train only those that were most suited to the game and least likely to be abused by it?

 

[SpringArising]

ETA - I still can't understand why people are harking on about how 'it's necessary' to have all the tack on to prevent rider injury. Firstly, it's not the amount of tack that's an issue necessarily - it's how much discomfort it causes the horse that matters. Many many games of polo clearly show an uncomfortable looking horse. Whether this just be 'for a few minutes' whilst turning or stopping, I'm sorry, but that just isn't good enough. Secondly, using the argument that 'it's necessary' is not acceptable - if 'it's necessary' to cause a horse discomfort to do the sport, the sport should not be done. Thirdly, there's absolutely no point whatsoever using the argument that 'there are uncomfortable horses in other disciplines too'. Yes, of course there are, that doesn't make it right, and nobody on here is saying that other disciplines don't have that. However, it's all about how common it is, and all you need to do is watch a polo match to see that it's very common to see horses going about as seen in the images above. It's not just a 'moment in time' every now and again. It's common place.

Exactly this. My absolute biggest pet peeve in this sport is the '..but all this tack is necessary" argument. How many people actually have removed the tack and tried without? How many people spent have ten minutes actually riding, as opposed to relying on ten different pieces of leather and metal to do their job for them?

It saddens me that a vast majority of the equine world will use something because they've been recommended it or seen it or someone else's horse, as opposed to actually taking the time to test different things.

 

[cptrayes]

I'm looking on Google. I typed in 'horse polo' and these alone came up on the first page:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__07fq12lprE/S9s9r5XkHFI/AAAAAAAAANA/rh2FPDpZGVo/s400/Polo+JPEG.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Polo_At_the_Kentucky_HOrse_Park_(5995905109).jpg
http://www.gamesguys.com/wp-content/thumbs/mochi/H/harry-william-polo-horse-game_img1.jpg
http://images.forwallpaper.com/files/images/2/2c3c/2c3c181a/1060070/polo-match.jpg

Not nice.

Thank you SA, You saved me a job there. I thought for a moment I was going mad when I was told these pictures aren't everywhere you look.

 

[Mariposa]

You don't see instances of horses having their mouths ripped to shreds and hauled about in every single event/dressage comp/hack/sj. It's in the minority. Polo, it is pretty much every horse in every match you see.

Wow - so you are saying that all of us polo player rip our ponies mouths to shreds?

This is one of our ponies at 19 yrs old, he actually retired last autumn as we were concerned about his arthritis - but here he is in a gag and running reins, there is no contact on the lower rein as he pulls forward, he is going sweetly. So does it look like I'm hauling him around? Does he look neglected? A welfare case?

Enough with the sweeping generalisations!

 

[amandap]

Loving some of the arguments in this thread.
I have no strong feelings for or against Polo as dont know enough about it but thought a different take on some of the comments pro polo might be interesting.
Lets take the well cared for and loved justification. I believe the birds used in chicken (avoiding swear filter) fighting were often very much treated like princes. I'm sure they enjoyed it to as they were very keen to kill each other.
Now for draw / running reins. These are banned from the competition ring in all 3 main disciplines. I believe only SJ allow them to be used in warmup. The reason draw reins are so effective is that the double the pressure a rider can exert on the horse through the bit. Nothing to do with light contact, all about the force applied to the bit.
Which brings me nicely on to the bits. Agree strong bits are seen in all 3 main disciplines. However, if the rider doing XC had to haul on said bit repeatedly at every fence they would very soon be stopped on course for either abuse or dangerous riding. Average SJ round lasts about 90 seconds. Dressage when using curb bit you are not allowed to strap mouth shut. Horse opening mouth to avoid harsh use of bit would be heavily penalised.
Polo providing a second chance for ex racehorses I really liked. Depending on your view of racing that could be seen as out of the frying pan and in to the fire.
Hunting? Nope wont even go there.
At the end of the day all horse that are ridden are subjected to discomfort/pain to some degree. The simple fact is they learn to respond to aids as a way to avoid the discomfort. Even the simple leg aid becomes light through the horse learning that if ignored an increased level of pressure will be applied. How do western and polo horses (and to some extent SJ) learn to do a screaming halt simply from the rider leaning back? Simple, they've learnt what happens if the request is ignored.
So at the end of the day it is up to the individual to decide just how much discomfort / pain they are prepared to subject a horse to in order to enjoy what ever discipline they do, even hacking.
The really sad thing for me is that many riders believe the dont subject their horse to any discomfort.

I really like this post.
Do draw reins really double the force/pressure applied?

The sad thing for me is everyone starts to defend their sport/discipline and the discussion descends into us v them or it's OK in this or that discipline or someone else is worse rather than focusing on the horses' welfare and perspective!
That's humans for you, always an argument to rationalize our beliefs and comfort ourselves that we are not compromising horses welfare.

 

[Moomin1]

Wow - so you are saying that all of us polo player rip our ponies mouths to shreds?

This is one of our ponies at 19 yrs old, he actually retired last autumn as we were concerned about his arthritis - but here he is in a gag and running reins, there is no contact on the lower rein as he pulls forward, he is going sweetly. So does it look like I'm hauling him around? Does he look neglected? A welfare case?

Enough with the sweeping generalisations!

Clearly not in that photo no. Because it is being asked to go forwards, not turn or stop. Pointless photo.

 

[Ibblebibble]

That's humans for you, always an argument to rationalize our beliefs and comfort ourselves that we are not compromising horses welfare.

we started compromising hose welfare the moment someone discovered that they could be ridden, but we all do it because we want to. every single one of us on this forum will be guilty of some error in judgement at some point which will have had a negative effect on our horse, in some peoples eyes that 'error' could be something as simple as banging a shoe on a horse which plenty find abhorrent while others find it perfectly acceptable. No sport is perfect and neither is any human being, although some on here do seem to be under the belief that they are!

 

[amandap]

we started compromising hose welfare the moment someone discovered that they could be ridden, but we all do it because we want to. every single one of us on this forum will be guilty of some error in judgement at some point which will have had a negative effect on our horse, in some peoples eyes that 'error' could be something as simple as banging a shoe on a horse which plenty find abhorrent while others find it perfectly acceptable. No sport is perfect and neither is any human being, although some on here do seem to be under the belief that they are!

Much of this is true but is another argument to avoid critique! We can all improve and if we are never questioned or consider ourselves above question we wont see things differently and lip service will be paid to improvements for the horse.

 

[Moomin1]

we started compromising hose welfare the moment someone discovered that they could be ridden, but we all do it because we want to. every single one of us on this forum will be guilty of some error in judgement at some point which will have had a negative effect on our horse, in some peoples eyes that 'error' could be something as simple as banging a shoe on a horse which plenty find abhorrent while others find it perfectly acceptable. No sport is perfect and neither is any human being, although some on here do seem to be under the belief that they are!

But the subject of this thread is not about 'error of judgement at some point'. Errors are errors, and it's down to us to ensure we don't repeat them if we make them. We are talking about continuous behaviour/methods within a discipline. Not the odd bad rider seen out on a hack.

 

[Mariposa]

Clearly not in that photo no. Because it is being asked to go forwards, not turn or stop. Pointless photo.

Pointless? He is wearing all the gear criticized in previous posts actually - and looking pretty happy in his 'bondage'.

 

[Moomin1]

Pointless? He is wearing all the gear criticized in previous posts actually - and looking pretty happy in his 'bondage'.

I'm not sure what people aren't grasping here? It's nothing to do with the amount of gear whatsoever...it's the effect that it has on the horse when it's put into use that matters. Clearly, in that photo, it is not being put into use at that time. The horse has it's head, and is being asked to go forwards, with the rider's weight forwards. IMO, the style of riding, coupled with use of tack, and logistics of the game itself, all contribute to what makes a very uncomfortable looking horse in many polo matches.

 

[cptrayes]

But the subject of this thread is not about 'error of judgement at some point'. Errors are errors, and it's down to us to ensure we don't repeat them if we make them. We are talking about continuous behaviour/methods within a discipline. Not the odd bad rider seen out on a hack.

This.

I also don't see anyone on this thread, and actually nobody I can think of off the top of my head on the whole forum, who claims to be perfect or gives me the impression that they think they are perfect. Neither do I believe that you have to be perfect yourself to see welfare problems elsewhere.

 

[cptrayes]

Does anyone see the irony in the statement that not all the ponies are strapped down.?

Does this not mean that some of the ponies are inherently much better suited to the game than others? And would it not be the case if the strapping were banned, that people would then take more care to select, ride and train only those that were most suited to the game and least likely to be abused by it?

Can anyone in the game comment on this? It appears to go to the crux of the issue to me.

 

[Doormouse]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but it is better to come from an educated stand point when making hard statements.

I have no argument with the posters on here who have had bad experiences of polo, I'm sorry they have and can quite understand from their descriptions why they no longer like it. I have clearly been lucky and not seen the worse side.

I do however find the posts from Moomin and Cptrayes aggressive including name calling simply because people have chosen to disagree with their view, a view that is not educated because neither have actually been involved with the sport.

Not one polo supporter has chosen to be rude. A discussion is just that, when you post asking if polo is a welfare concern you are going to get some who say yes and some who say no but if you ask a question and then promptly abuse the people whose views differ from yours then there is really no point asking, is there?

 

[Moomin1]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but it is better to come from an educated stand point when making hard statements.

I have no argument with the posters on here who have had bad experiences of polo, I'm sorry they have and can quite understand from their descriptions why they no longer like it. I have clearly been lucky and not seen the worse side.

I do however find the posts from Moomin and Cptrayes aggressive including name calling simply because people have chosen to disagree with their view, a view that is not educated because neither have actually been involved with the sport.

Not one polo supporter has chosen to be rude. A discussion is just that, when you post asking if polo is a welfare concern you are going to get some who say yes and some who say no but if you ask a question and then promptly abuse the people whose views differ from yours then there is really no point asking, is there?

Name calling?!

I don't recall anyone calling anybody abuse names..

I may not have played polo, but I am heavily involved in welfare, and my opinion is that polo is not high up there on welfare standards. Sorry.