RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
Happy to agree to disagree. I'm not discounting your concerns btw - we all strive for a perfect world after all, I just do not see the welfare issue that you do. Beauty of opinion.
Welfare issues with polo?
- Thread starter cptrayes
- Start date
Happy to agree to disagree. I'm not discounting your concerns btw - we all strive for a perfect world after all, I just do not see the welfare issue that you do. Beauty of opinion.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Do you see a welfare issue with rollkur? Just interested!
ribbons
Well-Known Member
Polo is tough on the horses, as is any equestrian sport at competitive level. Is it a welfare concern though, no, not in my opinion.
I have been following the peel case, due to be heard in court soon, THIS is horses suffering, THIS is a welfare issue.
Horses leading a hard competitive life is the same as people doing a hard physical job, sometimes resulting in severe discomfort and occasionally injury.
I firmly believe the alternative (for horses and humans) has gone much to far the other way. A cushy, safe, comfortable life with little physical exertion or discomfort has led to both having obesity and many other problems instead.
I think of fire fighters in Australia during bush fires. Already the natural heat is more than most could cope with, add to that the immense temperatures caused by the fires. Then, the protective gear those people have to wear. It must to be close to unbearable, but its necessary for safety, as is the equipment the polo ponies wear.
Of course, fire fighting is essential, polo is for fun, but the comfort, injury risks are similar.
It's only my opinion, and I know it clashes with many here, but I don't feel excluding everything unpleasant, uncomfortable, even some level of painful is good for any species.
The biggest behavioural problems encountered by most pleasure riders is due to horses being treated as over indulged children.
People and horses that work hard and experience less than delightful working conditions have neither the energy or inclination for mischief. They enjoy the down time and are more appreciative of their leisure time.
It's not that bad either. I know when I have worked very physically hard all day, and ache all over, I thoroughly enjoy my evening bath and sleep well, compared to a slack easy day, when I'm restless all evening, fiddling with all manner of unnecessary things.
Sorry, went on a bit, but was getting a bit fed up of the over the top statements about welfare issues that really aren't there, from people who clearly just enjoy arguing for the sake of it. Wait till afore mentioned case becomes public, that will put things in perspective.
I have been following the peel case, due to be heard in court soon, THIS is horses suffering, THIS is a welfare issue.
Horses leading a hard competitive life is the same as people doing a hard physical job, sometimes resulting in severe discomfort and occasionally injury.
I firmly believe the alternative (for horses and humans) has gone much to far the other way. A cushy, safe, comfortable life with little physical exertion or discomfort has led to both having obesity and many other problems instead.
I think of fire fighters in Australia during bush fires. Already the natural heat is more than most could cope with, add to that the immense temperatures caused by the fires. Then, the protective gear those people have to wear. It must to be close to unbearable, but its necessary for safety, as is the equipment the polo ponies wear.
Of course, fire fighting is essential, polo is for fun, but the comfort, injury risks are similar.
It's only my opinion, and I know it clashes with many here, but I don't feel excluding everything unpleasant, uncomfortable, even some level of painful is good for any species.
The biggest behavioural problems encountered by most pleasure riders is due to horses being treated as over indulged children.
People and horses that work hard and experience less than delightful working conditions have neither the energy or inclination for mischief. They enjoy the down time and are more appreciative of their leisure time.
It's not that bad either. I know when I have worked very physically hard all day, and ache all over, I thoroughly enjoy my evening bath and sleep well, compared to a slack easy day, when I'm restless all evening, fiddling with all manner of unnecessary things.
Sorry, went on a bit, but was getting a bit fed up of the over the top statements about welfare issues that really aren't there, from people who clearly just enjoy arguing for the sake of it. Wait till afore mentioned case becomes public, that will put things in perspective.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
An excellent post, although I do go more for the cptrayes and Moomin view of polo, what you have written certainly makes sense. When I hunt a strong horse I gadget it up - I suppose what is the difference? In polo it is the 20 stone men smashing around on a little 15hh tb's kidneys I find most upsetting, not the decent riders.
Slave2Magic
Well-Known Member
Having read all 22 pages I have to say there are far worse welfare issues than a polo match! Yes it involves accurate stopping and turning at speed. So does western riding. I assume those objecting are also against this? I am no fluffy bunny and neither would I sit back and ignore a true welfare case. There are always areas of any equestrian sport that cause disagreements. Accept others opinions and move on!
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
But a debate is healthy! It is good to assess other people's opinions, as long as it can be done without everyone getting personal.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Believe me, I am MORE than aware what a welfare case is.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Funny you mention Western riding, because yes, that is exactly what I liken polo to - and I don't agree with the riding style/harsh use of the the bit in Western either.
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TTK
Well-Known Member
Don't talk about something you obviously don't know much about - do your research (this will set 'em off)
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
I have sat in a Western saddle once...that gives me the 'right' to judge. ;-) ;-)
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
*Good* western riders will hardly touch the horses mouth, and the horse will be in a frame with no contact. Now that's collection!
That said, I was watching a Sam Peckinpah western on iPlayer a couple months ago and spent the entire film driving my husband nuts, expressing horror at the way the horses were ridden. Lots of yanking and dramatic head-throwing and mouth-gaping. Looked all very Hollywood and dramatic, but poor horses! Far worse than that polo match in the above YouTube video.
That said, I was watching a Sam Peckinpah western on iPlayer a couple months ago and spent the entire film driving my husband nuts, expressing horror at the way the horses were ridden. Lots of yanking and dramatic head-throwing and mouth-gaping. Looked all very Hollywood and dramatic, but poor horses! Far worse than that polo match in the above YouTube video.
amandap
Well-Known Member
I find this an interesting concept but for another thread really.
Of course there are much worse issues for horses but it is also interesting people can draw parallels with other disciplines, perhaps this use of pain/discomfort in the mouth for control is what is being questioned?
Other disciplines have been questioned regularly on here and this thread is discussing Polo.
I suppose some may feel welfare only concerns feeding and living conditions or outright beating but to me it concerns all aspects of horsemanship and some of it is common practice. We all draw our personal lines at different places so will never agree on things such as this, but is it wrong to question?
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I think you'd have to qualify what sort of 'western' riding here... polo forces and tack are probably akin to barrel racing more than other types. Neither make for photos of happy looking horses and I don't think a bitted up hunter/eventer is quite the same intensity as a polo chukka imo. I'm not sure where I am on it being a welfare issue tbh, unbit/strap them down and end up with them bashing into each other and breaking things isn't going to be good either.
I reckon they should stick to playing it on elephants
I reckon they should stick to playing it on elephants
amandap
Well-Known Member
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
I think you'd have to qualify what sort of 'western' riding here... polo forces and tack are probably akin to barrel racing more than other types. Neither make for photos of happy looking horses and I don't think a bitted up hunter/eventer is quite the same intensity as a polo chukka imo. I'm not sure where I am on it being a welfare issue tbh, unbit/strap them down and end up with them bashing into each other and breaking things isn't going to be good either.
I reckon they should stick to playing it on elephants
Haha now that would be interesting! Perhaps they'd have to strap their trunks down! Lol
amandap
Well-Known Member
ester
Not slacking multitasking
no trunks are permitted
fburton
Well-Known Member
Do they still haul on horses' mouths in the movies like they used to, or has that been tightened up on?
ETA: Just read Caol Ila's post which mentions this very topic.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Just to clarify, the movie I was describing was made in the 80s. Maybe 70s. I don't watch many westerns but I did see that Coen Brothers one with Jeff Bridges that came out a couple years ago, and I at least don't recall being appalled by the sh * * tty riding, so the riding was probably all right.
pip6
Well-Known Member
What I stated about polo ponies welfare was what I had personally witnessed over a period of 5 years, with ponies from a well known club. I did not tar all polo owners with the same brush, I did say there was one who did come each week in the winter to see her ponies and genuinely cared for them.
Shall we also consider another point I raised that has been ignored about breeding polo ponies, where the newborn colt foals were culled due to their gender? How is that ever acceptable?
My suggestion would be ditch the martingale and running reins. Then the rider would not be able to haul on the mouth as they would be eating ears. Best way to ensure consideration to ponies mouth and ensure considerate riding.
Love the elephants, now that I would go and watch.
Shall we also consider another point I raised that has been ignored about breeding polo ponies, where the newborn colt foals were culled due to their gender? How is that ever acceptable?
My suggestion would be ditch the martingale and running reins. Then the rider would not be able to haul on the mouth as they would be eating ears. Best way to ensure consideration to ponies mouth and ensure considerate riding.
Love the elephants, now that I would go and watch.
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amandap
Well-Known Member
Just an aside but why don't elephants wear bits? In fact they have nothing on their heads at all for control.
ribbons
Well-Known Member
Not quite the same speed with elephants is there. No need for that level of control.
Olderrider
Well-Known Member
Personally I find it more distressing to watch a local jumping show.
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
I don't know much about rollkur to be perfectly honest, probably not enough to form a reasoned opinion on it. It doesn't look particularly comfortable and I would assume that if the horse were schooled in that way for hours upon end as some have been alleged to do, this could have long lasting ill effects on the horse - I suppose there would be degrees as to how often a yard used rollkur?
Really? I'm sure I read that you worked for the RSPCA?
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Not from me you didn't. And I can assure you, I have dealt with some of the most horrific cruelty you could imagine, so please let's not get too personal with the insinuation that I don't know a cruelty case when I see one..
I asked you a civil question with genuine interest as to what your views are. I didn't ask to be insulted back.
SpringArising
Well-Known Member
No need to be so melodramatic (or ignorant for that matter).
Everyone knows that ears flat back, wide eyes and an open mouth are clear indicators that the horse isn't happy. Why ignore it? Why pretend it doesn't matter and convince yourself the horse is happy?
You clearly haven't been on HHO long enough to know that the majority of people don't like bling and diamanté, so you made a pointless comment there. No one here thinks horses should be wrapped in wool and get away with murder, there's just a few of us who are saddened that their welfare is placed on the lower end of the spectrum compared to that of their owner's enjoyment.
FWIW, your attitude has done nothing in the way of changing my mind.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
as Elephants were mentioned - Elephants are controlled with bull hooks
the traditional ways of breaking the young elephants spirit in preparation for riding are horrific. Remember the discussions about 'learned helplessness'?
http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/...fore-illegal-smuggling-from-burma-to-thailand
amandap
Well-Known Member
Like the old (? still used in places) way of 'breaking' horses.as Elephants were mentioned - Elephants are controlled with bull hooks
the traditional ways of breaking the young elephants spirit in preparation for riding are horrific. Remember the discussions about 'learned helplessness'?
http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/...fore-illegal-smuggling-from-burma-to-thailand
We still control with pain and subjugation just to a lesser degree.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Yes, the old FHOTD blog had a few videos showing that sort of training done on horses. One showed a horse that had a plastic chair repeatedly thrown at it until it gave up reacting to it.
Sugar_and_Spice
Well-Known Member
I have a magazine from 1936 featuring polo, with plenty of photos of numerous polo matches. The horses are all ridden in pelhams or double bridles, standing martingales attached to a loosely fitted flat 'hunter' cavesson noseband. There are very few horses with open mouths in the photos and those that are open are not open as much as the noseband allows. The heads are often raised against the martingales, though most horses look perfectly happy.
So for whatever reason there was a time when drop nosebands, rope cavesson nosebands, running reins and cheltenham gags were not used.
So for whatever reason there was a time when drop nosebands, rope cavesson nosebands, running reins and cheltenham gags were not used.