Welfare issues with polo?

[RunToEarth]

Ah, thank you RTE,


I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. For me, if I had to put all that tack on any horse to do its job, and I could regularly see it straining against it with wild eyes and an open mouth, I would make the decision that the horse was not suited to the sport and sell it or change what I do with it.

Earlier this year I tried to convert my six foot hedge hopper into a dressage horse. He has superb paces and would do a good test. But I've had him five years, know him inside out, and knew that although he was consenting to do what I wanted, (sometimes in draw reins) that he was not happy with the job.

Reluctantly, I sold him to someone who still wants to jump six foot hedges like he does.

CPT (im shortening it, I don't trust my iPhone) I'm not disagreeing with you, I would never force a horse to do something it categorically didn't suit or didn't like.

Polo ponies don't spend their matches in discomfort if you are riding them properly - they are big pitches and a lot of room to ride into, a lot of games will never command them to turn on their sixpence - if they did the whole world would agree it would be a welfare issue. For the most part of the game they are riding forwards - but which photo makes more of a statement on the front of the daily mail?

 

[cptrayes]

Goodness me the heat is getting to a few people!

As a non player who rides passed polo regularly I can tell you those I've seen LOVE it, they are bouncing gleefully around IMO. My own horse gets most excited to know why all these others keep shooting about, can't say I've ever thought the tack looks any heavier than other disciplines either.

Think there's a few people itching for a row here but as a neutral, a little less petulance might make for a better discussion on the part of the 'against' contingent.

Isn't it interesting that it is only the people who are in favour of the game who are flinging around personal criticism this way? So now we are petulant aggressive name callers

Any advance on petulant?

Pass the popcorn people, I think this thread is going to die the usual hho death now. Make mine toffee flavour!

 

[Copperpot]

This is so funny. I actually had to read the "offensive" post 3 times to see what had caused the upset. Brilliant!

This!!

 

[teapot]

Equally, with as many horse and rider deaths there are in eventing, indeed, why have fixed fences at all? Why not make all the fences knock downable, make the course flat, remove any optimum time, that would make it better for everyone wouldn't it. Except it would be dull as ditchwater.

When was the last rider fatality in polo, out of interest?

There's a polo player currently in ICU in London with an awful brain injury after coming on over the weekend at Guards. It's the only sport where an EU recognised hat isn't required by rules, but a standing martingale is.

I think it depends on how you define welfare. I spent the entire day watching the Gold Cup semis and I didn't sit there thinking 'poor poor ponies'...

ETS: in the lessons I had, I was told to ride of one set of reins primarily (obviously as a beginner the speed is far less of a issue) and only use the second if needed/first broke.

 

[Mongoose11]

Isn't it interesting that it is only the people who are in favour of the game who are flinging around personal criticism this way? So now we are petulant aggressive name callers

Any advance on petulant?

Pass the popcorn people, I think this thread is going to die the usual hho death now. Make mine toffee flavour!

It will die a typical HHo death because, typically, you 'seem' to refuse to accept that some people don't see the cruelty that you see. You 'seem' to be just repeating (in effect) 'but I can see it, so why can't you?'. That becomes a little boring and people get tired and fail to proof read, wander off and make popcorn and ALL sorts...

 

[cptrayes]

CPT (im shortening it, I don't trust my iPhone) I'm not disagreeing with you, I would never force a horse to do something it categorically didn't suit or didn't like.

Polo ponies don't spend their matches in discomfort if you are riding them properly - they are big pitches and a lot of room to ride into, a lot of games will never command them to turn on their sixpence - if they did the whole world would agree it would be a welfare issue. For the most part of the game they are riding forwards - but which photo makes more of a statement on the front of the daily mail?

We will have to agree to disagree RTE. I take your point entirely about how much of the game does not look like the pictures they choose to publish, but I'm too uncomfortable about the sheer number of them that exist, and not in the Mail, either.



Can anyone point me to video of polo, I'm about to go and look for some on YouTube. Hands up, I really should have done this before, I think.

 

[Moomin1]

I just typed 'polo match' into Youtube, and the very first one up I could have freeze framed pretty much every few seconds and got an 'ugly' picture of uncomfortable looking horses.

 

[cptrayes]

It will die a typical HHo death because, typically, you 'seem' to refuse to accept that some people don't see the cruelty that you see. You 'seem' to be just repeating (in effect) 'but I can see it, so why can't you?'. That becomes a little boring and people get tired and fail to proof read, wander off and make popcorn and ALL sorts...

The thread is kept going by two sides. Why is one more guilty of annoying you than the other, it takes both?

I did not simply take an opposing view, I asked repeatedly for more information, but I doubt if you have actually read the thread, or if you did you did not spot it.

It is clear that there are two points of view, where people will have to agree to differ. I have no problem with that, do you?

I'll settle for just sweet popcorn if that's all you have.

 

[PollyP99]

To have a reasoned debate one must listen to views held by others and discuss. Every time someone make a point about having witnessed/ taken part/ other real experience you simply ignore it and act in a petulant manner repeating what was said pages back.




Popcorn has gone stale....

 

[cptrayes]

England v New Zealand

Make up your own mind. I have watched as far as I can stand it. I will agree to differ with the people who think it's OK, but I don't.


http://m.youtube.com/?gl=GB&hl=en-GB#/watch?v=fkjtacL92sk

 

[teapot]

Cptrayes - http://www.pololine.tv/

That's the coverage of today's Gold Cup semis at Cowdray. Once again given I was there, and sat immediately behind some of the waiting ponies, welfare did not cross my mind at any stage. But then it probably wouldn't at polo's highest levels. Lower levels, maybe.

 

[cptrayes]

To have a reasoned debate one must listen to views held by others and discuss. Every time someone make a point about having witnessed/ taken part/ other real experience you simply ignore it and act in a petulant manner repeating what was said pages back.




Popcorn has gone stale....

I have discussed others views. What you mean is that I won't agree with them.

 

[Moomin1]

To have a reasoned debate one must listen to views held by others and discuss. Every time someone make a point about having witnessed/ taken part/ other real experience you simply ignore it and act in a petulant manner repeating what was said pages back.

How? CPT has only repeated one question, which nobody yet has managed to answer. With regard the talk about taking part/'real' experience, it is irrelevant - it has no bearing on whether there is a welfare concern caused by the tack and riding style whatsoever. That is something which can be assessed without having to actually take part in a polo match. As is rollkur. The majority of people on this forum have probably never and will never reach a level of dressage where they would remotely practice rollkur, yet they can and are more entitled to form an opinion as to whether it is a welfare concern. The only posts which could be related to 'real experience' which could be valid with regards any welfare opinion are those in relation to how the horses are kept daily. But that's not what this thread is about. Nobody disputes that in the majority of instances, they are probably kept to very good standards.

 

[cptrayes]

Cptrayes - http://www.pololine.tv/

That's the coverage of today's Gold Cup semis at Cowdray. Once again given I was there, and sat immediately behind some of the waiting ponies, welfare did not cross my mind at any stage. But then it probably wouldn't at polo's highest levels. Lower levels, maybe.

Thank you teapot. I'm sorry but I can't watch it, I have 'country speed' broadband and its too high a quality and it won't load. I assume that the YouTube (compressed) video of the England NZ game was similar. If you look off the ball, you will see the stuff that upsets people like moomin and me in the first few seconds (after the naked Moaris ) and every few seconds, over and over.

 

[teapot]

Which one was it as your link won't work - want to have a nosey

 

[Moomin1]

Thank you teapot. I'm sorry but I can't watch it, I have 'country speed' broadband and its too high a quality and it won't load. I assume that the YouTube (compressed) video of the England NZ game was similar. If you look off the ball, you will see the stuff that upsets people like moomin and me in the first few seconds (after the naked Moaris ) and every few seconds, over and over.

Naked Moaris?? I didn't see that!! Lol!

 

[ester]

this one tp I think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkjtacL92sk

 

[cptrayes]

Which one was it as your link won't work - want to have a nosey

Link works for me, I'm try it again, but it comes up first in the list if you search on 'polo match' the moaris are great

http://m.youtube.com/?gl=GB&hl=en-GB#/watch?v=fkjtacL92sk

 

[teapot]

this one tp I think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkjtacL92sk

Ta. Well that's not top top level for a start but nothing stands out.

Moomin, cptrayes - genuine question, what is it that you find distressful about it? Tack? Speed? Closeness of ponies to each other? Spinning on a six pence? Do you find is as distressful as watching a two year old being raced?

 

[Toffee44]

Cptrayes - http://www.pololine.tv/

That's the coverage of today's Gold Cup semis at Cowdray. Once again given I was there, and sat immediately behind some of the waiting ponies, welfare did not cross my mind at any stage. But then it probably wouldn't at polo's highest levels. Lower levels, maybe.

Did you see a few girls going crazy for the gallery in first game? We were sat behind the left side waiting box. That was me.
Welfare issues that we noticed was how quickly Dubai loaded, those horses would have still been blowing hard when being loaded/ fresh off pitch into lorry before game over. The gallery only had a 15min-30min journey home and waited for cooled horses.

 

[teapot]

Did you see a few girls going crazy for the gallery in first game? We were sat behind the left side waiting box. That was me.
Welfare issues that we noticed was how quickly Dubai loaded, those horses would have still been blowing hard when being loaded/ fresh off pitch into lorry before game over. The gallery only had a 15min-30min journey home and waited for cooled horses.

They did leave sharpish I have to say!

 

[Moomin1]

Ta. Well that's not top top level for a start but nothing stands out.

Moomin, cptrayes - genuine question, what is it that you find distressful about it? Tack? Speed? Closeness of ponies to each other? Spinning on a six pence? Do you find is as distressful as watching a two year old being raced?

I do not agree with two year olds being raced either.

For me, it's the discomfort shown by the horses in the mouth. It's not a pleasant sport to watch if you take the time to watch the horses' heads, eyes, and mouths continuously. It's very easy to get distracted by the match of course - which for a spectator or competitor, I imagine is good fun and an adrenaline rush. But the horses' reactions are not continuous of that unfortunately. The closeness I find a bit of an issue as well tbh - though not as much.

As an aside - does nobody ever get knocked out by that ball?!

 

[cptrayes]

Ta. Well that's not top top level for a start but nothing stands out.

Moomin, cptrayes - genuine question, what is it that you find distressful about it? Tack? Speed? Closeness of ponies to each other? Spinning on a six pence? Do you find is as distressful as watching a two year old being raced?

You aren't seeing what we are seeing, I think. Of course we are looking for it, and you are watching the flow of the game. What upsets us is horses shooting their heads into the air straining all the straps as a rider leans back in the saddle and hauls on the reins to stop it. It's happening all the time off the ball. You can see ponies pulled up so hard that their forehands are propping on the floor while their heads and necks go verticle to attempt to evade the harshness of the instruction they are being given. The first one is there within seconds of the start of the game, and it simply never stops. If it happens at international level like that, surely the argument that it is only lower level riders doing this simply can't be true?

I'm quite prepared to accept that you feel it's acceptable because it's required to play that way for an exciting game. I just can't agree that it's fair on the horses, sorry


PS The problem with racing two year olds, for me and for many people in the industry, is not what you see in the race. It's how incredibly young those horses have been backed, shod, permanently stabled and worked every day to get to the course. On the course itself, the colts and fillies are probably having a ball!

We had a long thread about this about two years ago. I was pleased about how many people inside racing would like it changed, but it would devastate our racing industry financially to go it alone and other countries are unlikely to agree.

 

[amandap]

You aren't seeing what we are seeing, I think. Of course we are looking for it, and you are watching the flow of the game. What upsets us is horses shooting their heads into the air straining all the straps as a rider leans back in the saddle and hauls on the reins to stop it. It's happening all the time off the ball. You can see ponies pulled up so hard that their forehands are propping on the floor while their heads and necks go verticle to attempt to evade the harshness of the instruction they are being given. The first one is there within seconds of the start of the game, and it simply never stops. If it happens at international level like that, surely the argument that it is only Lee level rider doing this simply can't be true?

I'm quite prepared to accept that you feel it's acceptable because it's required to play that way for an exciting game. I just can't agree that it's fair on the horses, sorry

I wonder if that's why they need the standing martingales? I see it the same but also accept others see it differently. Yes it's not constant but for a horse to throw its head up like that I think it is trying to avoid something painful, then it hits the martingale.

 

[teapot]

I do not agree with two year olds being raced either.

For me, it's the discomfort shown by the horses in the mouth. It's not a pleasant sport to watch if you take the time to watch the horses' heads, eyes, and mouths continuously. It's very easy to get distracted by the match of course - which for a spectator or competitor, I imagine is good fun and an adrenaline rush. But the horses' reactions are not continuous of that unfortunately. The closeness I find a bit of an issue as well tbh - though not as much.

As an aside - does nobody ever get knocked out by that ball?!

Has been known, mallets hurt too! I can see your point but I would say it's not like that 100% of the time and some horses can look pissed off at a walk, let alone polo speed. One of my RDA ponies goes around as though he's fighting against it all the time and he's not in any discomfort. Closeness, well that happens in racing too.

You aren't seeing what we are seeing, I think. Of course we are looking for it, and you are watching the flow of the game. What upsets us is horses shooting their heads into the air straining all the straps as a rider leans back in the saddle and hauls on the reins to stop it. It's happening all the time off the ball. You can see ponies pulled up so hard that their forehands are propping on the floor while their heads and necks go verticle to attempt to evade the harshness of the instruction they are being given. The first one is there within seconds of the start of the game, and it simply never stops. If it happens at international level like that, surely the argument that it is only Lee level rider doing this simply can't be true?

I'm quite prepared to accept that you feel it's acceptable because it's required to play that way for an exciting game. I just can't agree that it's fair on the horses, sorry

That was a young international level, ie most definitely not at the top of the game and will still be refining the skill. Same way a beginner rider hauls around on a horse's mouth than someone who's been riding for years. I did see some pretty hefty stops and off in the other direction.

As devil's advocate though, I'd ask you how you'd stop a horse from going at 30mph to a flat stop and then turning, without it shooting 'up' for want of a better word. Polo wouldn't be polo if it was played at a trot... Sadly though, it's never going to be a 'pretty' sport akin to the National's Swan Lake.

Tricky one, I love the sport, love watching it and hoping to get back into lessons but I'd like to think I'd never use a horse as a machine or support cruelty in any way. I've always been more interested in the angles their legs appear to end up at and how they stay sound (then saw one go wrong last summer) or how tight the girths are tbh! Re standing martingales, there's the element of not hitting a rider in the face don't forget, which all horses are capable of.

 

[Moomin1]

Has been known, mallets hurt too! I can see your point but I would say it's not like that 100% of the time and some horses can look pissed off at a walk, let alone polo speed. One of my RDA ponies goes around as though he's fighting against it all the time and he's not in any discomfort. Closeness, well that happens in racing too.



That was a young international level, ie most definitely not at the top of the game and will still be refining the skill. Same way a beginner rider hauls around on a horse's mouth than someone who's been riding for years. I did see some pretty hefty stops and off in the other direction.

As devil's advocate though, I'd ask you how you'd stop a horse from going at 30mph to a flat stop and then turning, without it shooting 'up' for want of a better word. Polo wouldn't be polo if it was played at a trot... Sadly though, it's never going to be a 'pretty' sport akin to the National's Swan Lake.

Tricky one, I love the sport, love watching it and hoping to get back into lessons but I'd like to think I'd never use a horse as a machine or support cruelty in any way. I've always been more interested in the angles their legs appear to end up at and how they stay sound (then saw one go wrong last summer).

But can I ask you then, if someone put a thread up on here, with a vid of them out hacking, or schooling their horse, and you saw them hauling the horse about and making it react like that..what would you think or say? My guess is that the majority of people on this forum would suggest strongly (!) that they are causing a welfare issue to their horse and that they get some lessons pronto before they ruin the horse or cause some damage.

 

[teapot]

But can I ask you then, if someone put a thread up on here, with a vid of them out hacking, or schooling their horse, and you saw them hauling the horse about and making it react like that..what would you think or say? My guess is that the majority of people on this forum would suggest strongly (!) that they are causing a welfare issue to their horse and that they get some lessons pronto before they ruin the horse or cause some damage.

Probably agree with loads of others depending entirely on situation and circumstance. But not sure you can compare normal riders to those who learn to canter and hit a ball. You're not taught how to ride when you start polo from scratch, you're taught to play polo and those are two very different things. Not saying it's right but when the guys playing learn to ride by stop, start, go left, right or sideways, it doesn't surprise me... Same could be said some those who learn enough to hire hirelings out for the hunting season. Know enough to stay on and that's it. I've seen riding at various events that could be argued as a 'welfare' issue when it comes to weight limits, not being able to hold hands still etc. All the same principle at the end of the day, whether it's an overweight rich man on a polo pony or an unbalanced overweight rider at a riding school... What about driving marathons? Fairly stop start in parts too.

Whilst I've seen pretty horrific stopping, I have rarely seen someone lean so far back as to be 'hauling' (as in leaning so far back they're yanking) on a polo pony's mouth... But again, I've never come away thinking poor pony, bar the one who did a leg last year. Granted though, given the quality of my nearest club, I've never seen lower levels.

It's not a pretty sport, it's fueled by money and those who have endless supplies of it, it's not full of one owner types who wrap their horse in fluff. It's a very very different world.

 

[anotherday]

I was going to reply with a long and detailed response to those that believe all polo is a welfare issue but it seems some people are determined to think the worst of polo and not willing to listen to others arguments or find out for themselves. Rather to make a generalisation based on very little material. So it's pointless. There are plenty of eventers competing cross country with hefty brakes on but you choose to ignore that? Why? Because many horses enjoy cross country and get a bit strong...... Oh, I forget polo is different, the horses are all dragged on there against their will. Based on your blinkered and ignorant knowledge of polo I might just start preaching against people show jumping (which like you and polo, I know little about). Clearly a Welfare issue, that horse has a strong bit and it has it's ears back, it obviously hates life and wants to commit suicide. It's so cruel. We should ban it. Horses should be dressed in pink fluffy rugs with diamanté everything and be allowed to sleep by the fire. Jeeeze.

 

[anotherday]

Cptrayes- I'm beginning you think you are a waste of time and just picking for a fight? Maybe you should direct your vengeance towards a cause more in need that one totally misperceived?

 

[cptrayes]

Cptrayes- I'm beginning you think you are a waste of time and just picking for a fight? Maybe you should direct your vengeance towards a cause more in need that one totally misperceived?

I have already agreed to differ with anyone who does not see what I see in the video of an international game. There is no need for this vitriol.