Well this is a can of worms

[Big Ben]

I would argue that fitness to ride is more important than adiposity, certainly at the levels of hacking and light schooling. Whilst fitness and adiposity are often related I believe someone who has a high amount of adiposity can also be relatively fit, and fit enough to do basic riding tasks as I have just described. I say this again before anyone screams at me, this is subject to being within certain parameters, and still being a light enough weight for the mount you are on.

Totally agree, within the parameters, fit is easier to carry than unfit, balanced than unbalanced, competent rather than beginner, all of these are factors in the whole equation.

 

[brighthair]

That fingers round wrist thing that Kerilli mentioned is interesting. Just tried it and I have a good inch gap between my fingers meeting no matter how hard I try!!

 

[Zeehorse]

I think the term riding light means riding balanced. I agree that one cannot appear to the horse as weighing less than they do, but I think they can appear to be more of a burdern if they ride badly. If we are talking laws of physics, a rider lifting themselves up to rise to the trot and then sitting by relaxing their muscles suddenly lands on the horse's back with more force than one who rises and lowers themself in a controlled movement. The former must be more of a burden than the latter, and to be ridden by someone like that must carry more risk of injury than someone more in balance. The horse may also be expending more energy to correct a lack of balance either by setting their neck against rein pressure or muscle adjustment of the back and abs and even lateral movement to maintain overall stability. I would imagine the burdern of an unbalanced, unfit rider is more than that of a heavier but balanced and fit rider, (within certain parameters). A sleeping toddler is far less of a burdern for us to carry than a tantruming one kicking and wriggling.

I would argue that fitness to ride is more important than adiposity, certainly at the levels of hacking and light schooling. Whilst fitness and adiposity are often related I believe someone who has a high amount of adiposity can also be relatively fit, and fit enough to do basic riding tasks as I have just described. I say this again before anyone screams at me, this is subject to being within certain parameters, and still being a light enough weight for the mount you are on.

I love that! I am not sure that's a word, but it should be.

I completely disagree with saying that the weight/fit rider is easier to carry as opposed to the light /unfit is a MYTH.

I would focus more on the skill level of the rider. A skilled rider knows how to rise to the trot (post the trot as we say in N. Am.) such that she has less impact on the horse's back. She knows how to connect the horse to the bit and encourage it to round up and engage its' core muscles, things that bring the back up and keep the horse in a position to maintain soundness there.

The unskilled rider will flop down hard on the back such that the horse will drop his back (which means will brace the back muscles but loosen the abs) raise the neck, hollow out and try to run out from under this painful rider.

So, it isn't just weight, it's skill .


And, yes we do have stining nettles here. They grow waist tall or more in the spring and are a tasty treat if you pick them young and boil them up like spinach. They also have medicinal uses (the Indians used them a lot) but I dont know. They are very high in Iron,so make some nettle tea if you are anemic.

Oh, and the young lady in blond and graduation get up: you could be a model, you are so pretty!

 

[Mongoose11]

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=11155663#post11155663

For anyone who is interested, I have well and truly received the kick up the ar*e and the encouragement I need to get going and I am going to do it. The link above will take you to my new thread that I am going to use as a kind of diary as I attempt to beat obesity once and for all. I would be grateful of support, advice, any words of encouragement that you can offer along the way.

It also has my ugly mug on there so you can see exactly what 17 odd stone of Billie1007 looks like!

 

[Natch]

I love that! I am not sure that's a word, but it should be.

I completely disagree with saying that the weight/fit rider is easier to carry as opposed to the light /unfit is a MYTH.

I would focus more on the skill level of the rider. A skilled rider knows how to rise to the trot (post the trot as we say in N. Am.) such that she has less impact on the horse's back. She knows how to connect the horse to the bit and encourage it to round up and engage its' core muscles, things that bring the back up and keep the horse in a position to maintain soundness there.

The unskilled rider will flop down hard on the back such that the horse will drop his back (which means will brace the back muscles but loosen the abs) raise the neck, hollow out and try to run out from under this painful rider.

So, it isn't just weight, it's skill .

Adiposity is a word. I know it all too well from my recent studies

I'll let you carry the 2 year old child who is throwing a tantrum then I'll be carrying his 4 year old impeccably behaved brother

You can have all the skill in the world, if you are not fit enough, you won't be able to use it for long.

It'll be a combination of lots of things that decides if a rider is an unfair burden on their horse or not. Sadly I suspect that something someone has already said in this thread is true, that those who need to hear the advice will be deaf to it. They'll make excuses about "those mean HHOers" bitching about them and making fun. Sadly several posters HAVE been bitchy and poked fun (on both sides of this argument) so the fact that many of us have debated this sensibly will get lost in the ether to those who really should listen, even if it is upsetting to hear.


Agree about blonde person by the way, very pretty

 

[Wagtail]

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=11155663#post11155663

For anyone who is interested, I have well and truly received the kick up the ar*e and the encouragement I need to get going and I am going to do it. The link above will take you to my new thread that I am going to use as a kind of diary as I attempt to beat obesity once and for all. I would be grateful of support, advice, any words of encouragement that you can offer along the way.

It also has my ugly mug on there so you can see exactly what 17 odd stone of Billie1007 looks like!

Well done Billy1007. I have commented on your thread. You were beautiful even at 18 odd stone. Just think what you will look like when you reach your 12 stone target.

 

[Laura6544]

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=11155663#post11155663

For anyone who is interested, I have well and truly received the kick up the ar*e and the encouragement I need to get going and I am going to do it. The link above will take you to my new thread that I am going to use as a kind of diary as I attempt to beat obesity once and for all. I would be grateful of support, advice, any words of encouragement that you can offer along the way.

It also has my ugly mug on there so you can see exactly what 17 odd stone of Billie1007 looks like!

Hi Billie1007!
I have read this thread with interest and felt that I wanted to post, not to air my opinions as such, but because weight issues and horses have been two dominating features in my life for many years. I havn't posted till now because I didn't really feel the need to express my opinions just wanted to tell how it was for me and that's a bit self indulgent but hopefully what I have to say might help/encourage you. I'm posting on this thread as it might help others too. Some of what I say might sound harsh but I really believe changing my mental attitude is what ultimately made me loose and maintain my weight.
I have always been fat, I remember being taken to a diet class with my grandma when I was 10 years old, I weighed 10 stone, I was shy and embarrassed by my weight all through school, kids can be cruel. My family told me I was big boned, I think they did this to make me feel better.
In my early 20's I became more confident about my appearance and do think at that time I wasn't unhappy with my weight, I'm 5ft 3ins and I was around 11 and a half stone then.
I have ridden since I was about 6 years old, there is a picture in my sig in my early 20's on my horse Woody.

I had a bad fall about 6 years ago and broke my back, I stopped riding for 3 years, I put on a tonne of weight and at my heaviest was 14st 7lbs and a size 20.
My OH has always said to me he doesn't care what size weight I am as long as I'm happy but if I'm unhappy he doesn't want to hear me whinge about it he wants me to DO SOMETHING about it. At 14st 7lbs I was unhappy but in denial.

I had the opportunity to ride a wonderful horse and at the same time help out my friend who owned her but it didn't sit easy with me, in my heart of hearts I knew I was too heavy for her so I decided I wouldn't ride her till I had reached 11 stone.
I now realise that one of the reasons why my weight has been such an issue in my life is that I have let the opinions/stereotypes of other people/media, good and bad, interfere with my mental attitude. One day you hear people talking about 'real' woman and fuller figures being sexier, the next we are in the middle of an obesity epidemic. There's fat genes, thin genes, new diets, size 0 scandals, the world is obsessed. When the foodie/comfort eater in me wanted to eat a whole packet of biscuits I thought of the articles telling us about how airbrushed models are unrealistic role models for women and in my head this cancelled out the bit of my brain saying 'you're overweight and this isn't healthy'. Now I'm not saying that I don't agree that the media has a lot to answer for BUT a crucial change was when I decided to take a real good look at myself and decide what I wanted and go back to basics. In the beginning I dropped my calorie intake to around 1500 per day, ate 3 meals per day, if I did snack it was healthy options such as fruit. I also tried to opt for low saturated fat foods. I also weighed my food and realised my previous dinners amounted to around 3 portions! This sounds a bit extreme but I needed to not kid myself about what I was eating, I needed to be honest with myself.
I tried not to feel sorry for myself when I refused puddings, when someone at work has a birthday and they buy everyone cakes I said I wanted a banana. No point being fed up about it, fact is I couldn't continue to eat the way I did and loose weight. Do I wish I could eat everything I wanted? Of course I do but no amount of moping about it is going to make it so. Instead I patted myself on the back and thought 'one step nearer to riding that horse'.
I reached my goal of 11 stone and at 32 years of age was the same size as I was at 18. I rode my friends horse, it was amazing. Everyone said how fabulous I looked and I felt great.
So I was a size 14 again and thats ok because I was big boned right? Everyone has always told me that, I always believed it. I've always been a physically strong person, somehow this fitted in with me being 'big boned'.
Thing was I carried on eating healthy because this was a change of lifestyle for me, because the deal had always been 'get to 11 stone and you can ride the horse' this also meant 'go back above it and you have to stop'.
So where am I now? 8 1/2 stone, size 8 and maintained for 2 years. Is it easy? The answer is no. Is it worth it? Yes. Odd thing is now I get the 'Its alright for you you're skinny' comments. I smile inside because half the problems people have is because they spend too much time feeling sorry for themselves because they perceive other people as being able to eat what they want and be thin. Some people are that way, some work hard at it, in any case its irrelevant because you have to work with what you are given and wishing it any other way is just detrimental to your attitude to loose weight. If you constantly tell yourself that its harder for you than every one else how is this going to help matters?

So after this epic post thats probably bored the pants off everyone, how heavy is too heavy to ride a horse? Put a dozen photo's up and I could probably voice an opinion on each one, couldn't we all. If one picture got a resounding 'Yes, you're too heavy to ride' vote would this stop the person from riding said horse, maybe/maybe not. Ok I'm a wimp and won't commit but if anyone out there harbours some small doubt that they may be too heavy for their horse because they are 'overweight' be sensible, be honest, and make the decision not based on what other people think but on what your conscience tells you.

And finally, picture of me having a lesson on a fantastic schoolmaster, something I wouldn't have done unless I had changed my attitude towards food.

 

[kerilli]

wow Laura6544, that is absolutely inspirational. thank you for sharing. great photo.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Laura that's what I've been trying to say far less eloquently than you. Excellent post and well done you, you look wonderful.

 

[DH1]

What a great post Laura

It's been an amazing journey for you.
We've shared some highs - me fetching ever decreasing sizes in Jods to the changing room, because you wouldn't try the smallest ones first just in case they were too small
And some lows- the last stubborn bit of weight that really took some will power to shift

It's been life changing for you, and you should be really proud of what you have achieved.

 

[dominobrown]

Billie- You are really pretty, good luck on your journey and keep us all posted!

Laura- Wow, you went from a size 20 to a size 8?? You are amazing inspiration.

I can't believe this thread has turned out this way... I really thought it would turn into a huge bitching contest, but I am actually finding it really helpful!

 

[murphysmummy]

Laura you've actually made me cry! Everything you've said is so true. I feel so sorry for myself being overweight and I always have an excuse for eating rubbish, I'm tired, stressed, its there, one won't hurt but now I've read your story and I've realised its all in my head! At the end of the day I am in control of what I shovel into my mouth. So...here's to being healthy, losing weight and making me happy!! And Laura, truly, thank you Xx

 

[Laura6544]

Laura you've actually made me cry! Everything you've said is so true. I feel so sorry for myself being overweight and I always have an excuse for eating rubbish, I'm tired, stressed, its there, one won't hurt but now I've read your story and I've realised its all in my head! At the end of the day I am in control of what I shovel into my mouth. So...here's to being healthy, losing weight and making me happy!! And Laura, truly, thank you Xx

Goodness me, you'll start me crying now! Its all gone a bit Oprah

But seriously, after I wrote that I hovered for 10 minutes over the 'post' button. If it helps just one person its worth it. It sucks being miserable, dont stand for it!

 

[murphysmummy]

I'm so glad you did post it! You have definately helped me and tomorrow is the start of a healthier, happier murphysmummy!!!
This forum is great for a good Oprah moment!!
Thank you again xxx

 

[TrasaM]

Billie- You are really pretty, good luck on your journey and keep us all posted!

Laura- Wow, you went from a size 20 to a size 8?? You are amazing inspiration.

I can't believe this thread has turned out this way... I really thought it would turn into a huge bitching contest, but I am actually finding it really helpful!

I was thinking exactly the same thing. It's had it's twists and turns and ups and downs but there have been some lovely posts from some very inspiring people. Best of luck to all of you with your weight issues. and Laura, wow indeed. Great post.

 

[Big Ben]

It's always great to hear from those who have fought and won, and more importantly maintained their weight loss, and I love to have the positive role models that tell me I can do this as well.


Laura, you are awesome, congratulations

I was searching for something this morning and came across this:

First, thank you for being here for Horses and Horse people! And I would love to sit with a cup of coffee and talk with you all day!! Just reading your words of advice is awesome!!

Now, I am a 5'2, 300lb woman. I LOVE horses, I learned how to ride on an old pro. She was a great horse. I now however am becomming scared to ride another horse. I have a 2year old gelding which I have raised from day one and a 3 year old filly that I rescued. She had more or less no touch from humans, she seems to have bonded with me, once, sense I have gotten her has she tryed to kick me, and that was when I was touching her all over, I touched her utter. I gave her a "punch" in the side and told her not with me you dont'. She now allows me to touch her anywhere.

Neither of them is trained, although I have been working the gelding, he's already been saddled, & I have made plans to send the filly out. I am still worried about not being in control of my body. I dont think I am a bad rider, I am "green"... I guess my questions are... If my horse(s) trust me will I be a better rider and what do you suggest for me as to learn how to control my own body? As a heavier rider I feel I must ride a larger horse (14.2hh if muscular and above. Falling off from this hight is a LONG LONG way). Are there things I can do? Like ride a barrel or something? I know I am not the only LARGE AND LOVELY RIDER (hehehe).

Thank and your pages are great help... Thank you!

No, I don't think you'll be a better rider if your horses trust you. I think your horses will be better horses if they trust you.

Loss of confidence is the result of some action or actions that psychologically convince you that you do not have the capabilities you once had to do what you once did. That action can be a fall, a general realization that you do not bounce as you once did or even the realization that you are no longer immortal.

Or it can be your subconscious mind's way of telling you that it doesn't trust your body to do what you would like it to do.

One of my interests is tracking. Tracking requires that you observe. One of the things I have observed about heavier people is that extra weight exponentially affects their balance. It certainly affects their flexibility. Balance and flexibility are major pluses when riding a horse.

When I say that weight exponentially affects your balance I mean that each level of additional weight has ten times more effect than the level before it. If we use ten pounds as the measure level, the third extra ten pound is not 30 times (3x10) more hindering, it is 1000 times more hindering (10x10x10). It does not take long before you are up to a level of effect that is extremely difficult to get over.

I see a lot of riders and I deal with a lot of horse problems. However, the percentage of those who are greatly overweight is rather small. That doesn't mean the heavier individuals are less interested in horses than the rest. It just means they have to put greater effort and energy into horses than others. They reach a point at which they simply cannot meet the demands.

There is also the matter of inertia. When a heavier person gets their weight moving it takes more time and energy to change its direction or to stop it than it does a lighter person. If I am moving at 15 mph I kinetically weigh 2700lbs. According to what you say you weigh your kinetic weight would be 4500lbs at the same speed.

Mounted direction and speed change forces would play a greater role. You would require greater control and balance than someone of lesser stature. Perhaps your mind sees this and programs your confidence accordingly.

A heavier person, especially one with a shorter stature would also have a higher center of gravity to further complicate balancing. The heavier the person, the more difficult it is for the rider to maintain balance. The heavier the rider, the more difficult it is for the horse to maintain balance. The "greener" the rider and the "greener" the horse, the greater the risk of injury, The heavier the rider, the more serious the injuries are likely to be.

Our self-preservation instincts throw up some serious roadblocks under these circumstances.

Unfortunately I know of no techniques that would help you regain the level of confidence you once had short of losing one pound.

It is extremely easy to say the answer to your problem lies in your weight. However it is not easy to deal with that weight but it must be dealt with if you wish to be confident, flexible and balanced enough to ride. When we say we need to lose X number of pounds it becomes a hercleaun task. Therefore, it seems to make more sense to deal with just one pound. One pound is easily do-able (at least more easier doable than 10, 20, or more) and repeatable (you did it once you can do it again).

Going after that *one* pound over the time your horses are undergoing their training will bring your confidence up to a more suitable level to match the increased capabilities of your horses.

Best of luck,

PS: Within minutes of posting the original email to my Horses Discussion List http://MarvWalker.com/horslist.htm one of the list members posts this response to the original email...

http://marvwalker.com/larger.htm

I found it very interesting, and just love the thought that every pound makes a difference o Yes I realize it did on the way up as well) Large amounts of weight to loose can make you scared of even starting, but YUP, I can make a difference and lose a pound, and another, and another.............

 

[rhino]

I found it very interesting, and just love the thought that every pound makes a difference o Yes I realize it did on the way up as well) Large amounts of weight to loose can make you scared of even starting, but YUP, I can make a difference and lose a pound, and another, and another.............

Thank you, I found it interesting too! If horses are sensitive enough to detect a teeny fly landing anywhere on their body they can certainly tell when their owners have lost a lb or a few lb.

I think it's been mentioned on here, though perhaps not enough, but the horse's own weight must have a huge impact on the longevity of its healthy life. If we think it is bad for the horse to be carrying 50 or 100 kg of extra person for 20 minutes a day, how much worse is it to be carrying 50 or 100 kg extra of itself, every minute of every day. Obesity in horses is every bit as problematical as obesity in humans. I was heartened by the US forum that in general the horses themselves were not obese!

 

[Littlelegs]

I think too there's too little thought put into the long term damage caused by a too heavy rider. I always wanted to breed from my 14.2, preferably something to make a nice sporty 13.2. After damaging her ligaments, although 100% recovered, vets agreed the burden of carrying a foal, even a relatively small foal from a small sports pony would hasten the onset of arthritis. Now although I know a foal is 24/7, you have to wonder how carrying a too heavy rider is comparable. There isn't enough research to be conclusive, but I do wonder about the reasons mine is so supple still at 23. Still rolls over uphill, marches out tracking up after being stabled overnight, & basically resembles a horse in its prime. Despite competing & hunting most of her life & being high mileage. Certainly she doesn't have supplements, magnetic rugs, or anything similar to try & slow the ageing process. In part its down to management, lots of turnout & exercise, but I do wonder if in part the fact that 99.9% of her ridden work has been with riders under the 10% mark.

 

[Big Ben]

The thing is Littlelegs, you will never know, if you posted that thought on a US board you will be flooded by replies from people who started their horse at 2 years, loaded it with 30% of its weight, rode the range every day for 25 years and they are still going strong.

 

[Wagtail]

All I know is that my knackered TB that has hock arthritis and severe kissing spine was previously ridden by a very overweight lady. I had him on loan with view to buy and she signed him over to me as soon as she found out he was 'knackered'. Said she had no room for him so would PTS if I returned him.

 

[Littlelegs]

I don't think mines at all unusual in still going strong in her 20's. But ime at that age its more common to find they take a little longer to warm up, or come out of their stables not quite flexing the same for the first few strides, or with filled legs. And few of that age can roll over uphill successfully. Especially after a very full life of high impact riding. The other thing is the few injuries she's had have all been as a result of specific external causes. Even the ligament damage was down to idiots with air rifles in her field, on a hot day with the ground like concrete. But I agree its hard to research, there's too many factors to find enough subjects for conclusive research.
30yr old kids ponies still in full work aren't unusual, whereas there are few tbs still competing at 30. Obviously there are too many factors, such as breed, etc to conclude its because the former is rarely ridden by kids anywhere near their maximum weight carrying capacity. But, I also know plenty of small, fine, non native ponies who are still going strong at ages few horses are. And ponies like that are again outgrown height, ability, class wise, long before the riders weight becomes a concern. I'll be first to admit that I'm sure the reasons for longevity are down to more than just % rider weight, & its almost impossible to research. But my own thoughts are that % rider weight is also a factor in continued flexibility/soundness/health.

 

[eahotson]

Harsh and unsympathetic schooling can cause lameness.Read Tug of War by Dr.Gerd Heuschmann .He is a Bereiter (master rider) in Germany and a vet.As children are rarely INTO schooling it might explain, at least in part, why their ponies go on for ever and many horses don't.Correct schooling of course, is very helpful to a horse.

 

[Littlelegs]

I wouldn't say kids in general aren't into schooling. But I agree they are less likely to be guilty of incorrect schooling, as they generally do so under experienced guidance, eg instructor, pc, horsey parent etc. And like I said, I don't think weight is the only reason, there are many, but imo weight is still one of those many factors.

 

[eahotson]

One of MANY factors.Maybe not even the most important one.