palo1
Well-Known Member
Yep, saw this on faceache and was just horrified. Surely this isn't 'correct' ?
. I just can't get my head around this at all and hoping that people are going to say that Western isn't usually like this at all. 
Western pleasure??! Whaaaat??
- Thread starter palo1
- Start date
The Jokers Girl
Well-Known Member
Those horses look cripplingly lame. What's going on in that video?
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Yep. That would be a lope.
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
Doesn't it look just thrilling.......?
Everyone the horses included look so animated and engaged.
Who on earth thought up such a thing and why?
Everyone the horses included look so animated and engaged.
Who on earth thought up such a thing and why?
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
i mean it's just another bonkers thing to do with horses isn't it? in the grand scheme of things it's probably no better or worse than most other horse sports as they all have controversies and odd practices, but i do strongly object to the young age of the horses that can compete which is generally only seen in racing over here.
Pinkvboots
Well-Known Member
Looks terrible ?
SEL
Well-Known Member
Awful isn't it? I'm convinced that's why PSSM managed to get a stronghold with the Appaloosa and QH western pleasure population. Even on her worst day my Appy moves better than that. I had to stop following one of the US based PSSM forums because people would post these awful jogs and lopes and say their horse wasn't affected by the disease. When I suggested to one lady she might want to trot up with a bit more activity to see if her horse was sound I was told I didn't know what I was talking about.
But MP is right. There are a lot of bonkers things to do with horses out there!!
But MP is right. There are a lot of bonkers things to do with horses out there!!
stangs
Well-Known Member
It's like a lot of dressage. Inherently, there's nothing biomechnically bad about a slow canter or an extended trot, but competition rewards the training of these movements to become increasingly extreme and prolonged, encouraging trainers to make dubious breeding choices and use appalling training tactics to achieve this extreme.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
I was told face to face by a trainer who makes fistfuls of money training western riding in England that their clients only take up western riding because they are such useless riders that they can't do anything else .
Nice, eh?
I've spectated at a few western clinics. The walk stuff is really quite good but as for the jog and the lope...
.Nice, eh?
I've spectated at a few western clinics. The walk stuff is really quite good but as for the jog and the lope...
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
i think we're miles away from each other but there's a western trainer down this way who would say that sort of thing, utterly unpleasant individual (and a total creep to boot)
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
The idea is that the horses must appear to be completely switched off to the cattle they are herding, so as not to razz them up. So I was told.
LegOn
Well-Known Member
I think its a testament to the unwavering temperament of our beautiful horses that they put up with us training them to do this kinda of bonkers thing... I know its all bonkers essentially when you think about it! Here let me sit on you and jump really really high things, like insane behaviour.
Its like a form of institutionalising them though it seems - shutting down all natural behaviours to do this...
Its like a form of institutionalising them though it seems - shutting down all natural behaviours to do this...
J&S
Well-Known Member
I think this is awful, the cowboys in the western movies can look pretty dreadful some times as well. I suppose they look at our overweight, overbent horses (from the last two threads) and wonder what is going on here!
palo1
Well-Known Member
When you look at this from an 'outsider' perspective I guess, like dressage, racing and some other horse sports - maybe all of them...it does look crazy but I guess from an insider perspective, this is their sport. I think it is probably the same with dogs too and showing of any kind of animal. It's a human madness. I was just utterly depressed to see these young horses and actually wondered how the heck do the trainers and riders achieve such an incredibly stilted form of movement. Bizarre, horrible and shameful to me. No idea what to think about the whole 'Riding Horses for Fun' thing today, having seen this...
I was just utterly depressed to see these young horses and actually wondered how the heck do the trainers and riders achieve such an incredibly stilted form of movement. Bizarre, horrible and shameful to me. No idea what to think about the whole 'Riding Horses for Fun' thing today, having seen this...
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
I thought that, too - how do you get a horse to shamble along like that?
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Ask for collection with no additional impulsion?
I believe the natural head carriage for a lot of quarter horses is fairly low (please correct me if I'm wrong) so I don't think it would be super hard to encourage that lower and lower
Alibear
Well-Known Member
Ouch, ok, where to start.
So there is bad and good horse training and riding in all disciplines. The video doesn't play now, so I can't comment on what it shows. But I can guess.
There has been an acknowledgement of the Western Pleasure issues within the various affiliated disciplines, and it is partly why Ranch Riding classes were brought in several years ago.
Those classes are now starting to rival western pleasure in the number of competitors, so you might say it is paying off.
I know a lot of judges etc., are confused as to why the bad western pleasure is still getting rewarded with placings. It's not asked for in the class requirements/rules. But it's not dissimilar to arguments on here about some horses' weight and movement issues in showing classes in the UK.
A good western pleasure horse can still move up and out when asked. It's another form of collection, the lope should be three-time, and the horse should be straight.
Amber can do a nice baby level pleasure jog now, and she can also move out at an extended ranch jog. They're just gears within paces. We still need to develop strength and collection over time to improve, ranch riding is more my thing, but I have the utmost respect for UK friends who do pleasure. Watching one move from a pleasure jog up into (and stress the up the horse lifted up incredibly) was eye-opening and showed how strong and how much collection the horse had.
As for the trainer comments, I don't know who you're talking about. I can't say I've met one who says that yet. But as with everything, there is an ounce of truth there, the quarter horses are generally very well behaved, and western saddles help keep you in the plate. That said, come sit on a cow horse, or take a trained reiner for a run down; you'll have to ride then. The skill is there; collecting a horse up with naff all rein contact is an art.
I am probably in the key demographic, middle-aged lady who just wants a lovely horse to go out and have fun with. No, I'm not aiming to be the next Olympian, but I don't see any harm in that. But there are those in the UK who compete in Europe and do really well. There's a western discipline to suit your adrenaline needs, just like there's an English one.
It may not be for you, that's fine, but don't tar us all with one brush, please.
So there is bad and good horse training and riding in all disciplines. The video doesn't play now, so I can't comment on what it shows. But I can guess.
There has been an acknowledgement of the Western Pleasure issues within the various affiliated disciplines, and it is partly why Ranch Riding classes were brought in several years ago.
Those classes are now starting to rival western pleasure in the number of competitors, so you might say it is paying off.
I know a lot of judges etc., are confused as to why the bad western pleasure is still getting rewarded with placings. It's not asked for in the class requirements/rules. But it's not dissimilar to arguments on here about some horses' weight and movement issues in showing classes in the UK.
A good western pleasure horse can still move up and out when asked. It's another form of collection, the lope should be three-time, and the horse should be straight.
Amber can do a nice baby level pleasure jog now, and she can also move out at an extended ranch jog. They're just gears within paces. We still need to develop strength and collection over time to improve, ranch riding is more my thing, but I have the utmost respect for UK friends who do pleasure. Watching one move from a pleasure jog up into (and stress the up the horse lifted up incredibly) was eye-opening and showed how strong and how much collection the horse had.
As for the trainer comments, I don't know who you're talking about. I can't say I've met one who says that yet. But as with everything, there is an ounce of truth there, the quarter horses are generally very well behaved, and western saddles help keep you in the plate. That said, come sit on a cow horse, or take a trained reiner for a run down; you'll have to ride then. The skill is there; collecting a horse up with naff all rein contact is an art.
I am probably in the key demographic, middle-aged lady who just wants a lovely horse to go out and have fun with. No, I'm not aiming to be the next Olympian, but I don't see any harm in that. But there are those in the UK who compete in Europe and do really well. There's a western discipline to suit your adrenaline needs, just like there's an English one.
It may not be for you, that's fine, but don't tar us all with one brush, please.
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The Irish Draft 2022
Well-Known Member
You can’t criticized when most English riders have never done western riding and are uneducated on the topic . They could say the same for dressage and hunting there is a lot of messed up things in the English riding and a lot more scandals.
TPO
Well-Known Member
What she said ?
People seem to think western is easy. They've either ridden horses than have been well trained by others or have no clue what they're looking at.
Don't even get me started on the claims thst western riders have no contact and are on the forehand all the time ???
I don't agree with the backing/riding of such young horses or that it's creeping in over here.
Pleasure isn't my bag and they breed a specific type of QH for those classes. In the same way that there are different types for Halter, Reining and cattle classes. Just as people breed with a specific aim for English competition be it dressage, jumping or eventing etc.
Pleasure horses do have certain movements bred into them in the same way that dressage and jumping horses do. They are designed to be cattle horses and more to provide a very smooth ride so thst they are a pleasure to travel many miles on; hence the "economical" jog and lope.
As usual humans have to take everything to extreme so cue the plants rolling nose to ground and stilted, almost stationary, paces. I can't see this exact video or when it is from but the industry did appear to be trying to fix the problems according to thr American magazines I subscribe to.
There was a lot of behind thr barn doors abuse in thebpleasure industry. If you want to be disgusted Google Cleve Wells. He was a renowned Pleasure trained who's written books and travelled all over as well as winning heaps. Some owners exposed what happened to their horse, including a severed tongue, and it was horrific.
There were also tales of horses with heads tied to the rafters overnight so thst they could barely hold their heads up the next day (peanut rolling). Nicking the nerves in tails and using other cruel methods so that thr tails never swished or moved because that's a penalty in thr show ring.
So yeah there are, or were, lots of not nice things in thst industry but there are not nice things in every competitive area where people stand to gain or win something. Humans pretty much suck ?
However as Alibear said don't tar everyone with the same brush.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I don't want to feel horrified on purpose and I know that there are many very good western riders and happy horses within that system - sorry you can't see the video; it was just so extreme, so strange and so alien to my understanding that I was just genuinely astounded (not in a good way). The video I am referring to sadly has been removed (as far as I can see) but it was a 3 y/o championship (Maiden?) class. This one is similar and shows the gait I was horrified by at about 59 seconds.
ETA - I realise that both videos are the same event but one is short and one is long!
[153312]
...
they use weighted bits sometimes.
TTK
Well-Known Member
Please don’t judge all western riding by a terrible pleasure horse video. If you ride a reining, cow or ranch horse, you need to be able to ride and those horses certainly move on out. I’m not going to defend pleasure, it’s vile and a fancy dress parade but don’t dismiss western until you have ridden a trained performance horse.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Is that a common sentiment amongst Western riders @TTK? I have seen this too:
stangs
Well-Known Member
The age issue is found in many Western disciplines tbf, thanks to people earning a stupid amount of money from futurity classes and the like. AFAIK the only Western discipline where you don't have classes for 2yos is bronc riding.
Had a look for you as regards specific issues associated with Western Pleasure, palo.
"Shoemaker notes that the lamest of the Western horses he sees are Western pleasure Quarter Horses, likely due to 1) a large body mass to small foot size ratio, which has some genetic implications; 2) long, slow repetitive trauma from persistent loping; and 3) nutrition and diet that spur rapid growth." [x]
It also sounds like there are various shoeing styles used to achieve the fluid foot movement, which vary in terms of how good they are for the horse. "The industry has the option to use a [perimeter-fit aluminum shoe] horseshoe and achieve the same quality of movement as the [squared-toe aluminum shoe], while potentially amplifying the longevity of the western pleasure horse." [x]
According to the AQHA (my bolding), "the lope is an easy, rhythmical, three-beat gait. ... Horses traveling at a four-beat gait are not considered to be performing at a proper lope. The horse should lope with a natural stride and appear relaxed and smooth. It should be ridden at a speed that is a natural way of going. The head should be carried at an angle, which is natural and suitable to the horse’s conformation at all gaits. [x]
This paper looks useful too, but I'm struggling to find a copy of it anywhere.
Had a look for you as regards specific issues associated with Western Pleasure, palo.
"Shoemaker notes that the lamest of the Western horses he sees are Western pleasure Quarter Horses, likely due to 1) a large body mass to small foot size ratio, which has some genetic implications; 2) long, slow repetitive trauma from persistent loping; and 3) nutrition and diet that spur rapid growth." [x]
It also sounds like there are various shoeing styles used to achieve the fluid foot movement, which vary in terms of how good they are for the horse. "The industry has the option to use a [perimeter-fit aluminum shoe] horseshoe and achieve the same quality of movement as the [squared-toe aluminum shoe], while potentially amplifying the longevity of the western pleasure horse." [x]
According to the AQHA (my bolding), "the lope is an easy, rhythmical, three-beat gait. ... Horses traveling at a four-beat gait are not considered to be performing at a proper lope. The horse should lope with a natural stride and appear relaxed and smooth. It should be ridden at a speed that is a natural way of going. The head should be carried at an angle, which is natural and suitable to the horse’s conformation at all gaits. [x]
This paper looks useful too, but I'm struggling to find a copy of it anywhere.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Thanks @stangs. That is interesting. I am not sure how 'natural' any of the WP stuff I have seen looks tbh - it is nothing like a slow canter (ie 3 beat gait) and I can't imagine there being any pleasure in riding it either but each to their own. I think I was aware of QH having teeny tiny feet and large muscle mass which is bad engineering from silly humans. The thought of practising that awful slow lope repetitively actually makes me want to cry but I would be interested to hear of anyone who does enjoy this class.
SBJT
Well-Known Member
I don’t often pitch in on an argument as in the horse world everyone has an opinion and everyone believes that theirs is right. And there are some pretty forceful opinions on this forum so I mostly keep to myself and just offer recommendations if someone has a question. BUT… today is the day I finally give my opinion.
Having grown up in England and learning to ride in the UK before finally emigrating to Western Canada I’ve seen both sides of this argument.
Anyone who says that western riders can’t ride is wrong. Period. The level of training required to get a horse soft and off the leg while being balanced and collected is an incredible amount of work. What’s more so many of these horses that I’ve seen and worked with are so quiet on the ground too (and not mentally switched off) is unbelievable how consistent they are. To get horses to be quiet then suddenly have to switch on to work a cow then go back to immediately being quiet in order to not disturb the herd. Amazing. Indeed I would love the opportunity to ride one of these horses as essentially you have to learn to get out of their way, especially in working cow competitions. There is absolutely no micromanaging involved and the horse knows their job completely. If you sit one of these horses, especially in competition, you better really know how to effectively ride with legs and seat and no hands. This is something that riding in the UK was never quite taught as effectively from what I saw and experienced over the years I was there as there was way more emphasis on more collection and hands. Interestingly I’d never heard of kissing spine till I came to this forum as it’s nowhere near as prevalent here (meaning in cowboy country) and I sometimes wonder if there is a correlation.
Having said that though, that is not the topic of discussion here. It is specifically the western pleasure lope. Like with all of the disciplines in riding there are some problems and this specific issue has received a lot of attention and criticism over the years. At least for the past 7 years there have been numerous and increasing calls to improve the requirements and essentially require the horse to perform a 3 beat lope instead of a 4 beat lope. Are we there yet, no. But like with everything it takes time. I have heard that judges have started to either mark low or DQ a horse that is not able to perform the 3 beat lope, essentially squeezing them out of competition. It will take time.
To throw another ‘wrench’ in this discussion and pre-empt in case someone else brings it up. The other great ‘beef’ I have is with the amount of training for 2-3 year olds that is done for futurist so essentially they’re broken by the time they hit 6-7. However you could argue the same point regarding racing (as was done not too long ago, in fact I remember reading a few points from Elf on a Shelf regarding this). Again this is something else that will take time to change opinions, and in the meantime it’s the horse that suffers.
Secondly, this type of long and low style does not work well with every horse. With a compact QH it will work better than with other breeds. I can tell you from my experience that my QH Clydesdale did not take well to it and we are now pursuing classical dressage up to level 3, I think that’s how it works (English, not western dressage in case that question comes up again ?).
As a side note, I was always interested in riding with a western trainer the next time I come to the UK just to understand the different styles of teaching. I’d be curious which trainer said that so that I can avoid them like the plague. They sound utterly clueless…
Anyway rant over. I’ll drop back into my corner now and skulk around as usual.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I think the skill required for working cattle from a horse is really clear and it is a very high level of skill in both training and riding as you say. I didn't want to call into question every Western discipline either but I was really flummoxed by the lope shown in both the original bit of film I posted and subsequently.
SBJT
Well-Known Member
I certainly won’t argue that point. As a rider who rides amateur both North American hunter (which has its own set of people against it here), classical dressage, working cow and cowboy challenge, as well as a bunch of other disciplines, the western lope is terrible and one that I have openly spoke about at competitions, clinics and at the local federation level. It is wrong and not mechanically correct, and causes other problems. I just don’t want people to start slinging mud around at all western disciplines which was in danger here. All disciplines have something wrong and there really is no right way, only peoples experiences and what has worked for them. I’ve always kept and open mind which had served me well in my life and I hope that we do here too as we all love these huge and beautiful animals, and as always they are the victims.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I don't accept the argument that you can only criticise something if you've done it. I've never been a parent but I can still criticise parents who abuse their children.
A lot more scandals in dressage and hunting? I've never heard of any scandal relating to a horse in hunting (a few about the masters! ) And few in dressage. If the US does have fewer scandals that may be because it is more accepted and legal to compete drugged horses.
Why on earth does anyone want to train a horse to look like a knackered lame old crock?
.
BBP
Well-Known Member
What I don’t get is what purpose the pleasure jog serves? They say it’s economical. But they have taken a ranch horse low impact jog and lope back and back and back until it’s way slower than a walk. So why not just walk? If I want to get somewhere I walk, if I want to get there faster i trot. These seem to have it the other way round.
I love a ‘proper’ working QH but having ridden a couple of pleasure horses I found no joy in it at all, and I didn’t feel the horse did either.
I love a ‘proper’ working QH but having ridden a couple of pleasure horses I found no joy in it at all, and I didn’t feel the horse did either.