What are peoples views on this

[justabob]

I am old fashioned and have only ever lived in this country, to me a horse should have all the preparation before a jockey gets on. That should be the final stage and in fact it should be the easiest bit if the ground work has been done correctly.

 

[Cortez]

I think a lot of people on HHO aren't that aware of what happens in other countries and just because it doesn't run in line with how they do things then it's wrong. I've lived in many countries of the world and I just see it as different. I've picked up lots of different techniques over the years, some I use myself now, others I don't, but I do feel all the more enlightened by living in these other countries and seeing how it's done there. A lot of British horse people do seem to be quite tunnel vision about the way horse things are done elsewhere and also appear to claim experience about all things horse-related, even when they have little experience of doing in their own country let alone experienced what goes on in other countries. Not necessarily a criticism, just something I've noticed happening a lot on this forum. Remember there are other ways of getting to the same end result, and one way is not always the only way.

Hear hear ^^^

 

[martlin]

A lot of assumptions here, why do you think it's a rushed job? Only because the getting on is done at a different stage of backing process doesn't mean time isn't taken to produce the horse.
Note, for example, there is no bit and pretty much no contact with the mouth, that will come later, after the basic going around is established, the horse gets a bit of balance and is less likely to wobble/rush off suddenly etc, meaning it will pretty much never get socked in the gob by accident.

 

[gadetra]

I think a lot of people on HHO aren't that aware of what happens in other countries and just because it doesn't run in line with how they do things then it's wrong. I've lived in many countries of the world and I just see it as different. I've picked up lots of different techniques over the years, some I use myself now, others I don't, but I do feel all the more enlightened by living in these other countries and seeing how it's done there. A lot of British horse people do seem to be quite tunnel vision about the way horse things are done elsewhere and also appear to claim experience about all things horse-related, even when they have little experience of doing in their own country let alone experienced what goes on in other countries. Not necessarily a criticism, just something I've noticed happening a lot on this forum. Remember there are other ways of getting to the same end result, and one way is not always the only way.

^^^^ (except without the multinational experience for me but we do things a bit differently over here and there is more of a horse culture, more than one way to skin a cat is more accepted).

I found it shocking when I joined HHO but I know it's normal now

 

[*sprinkles*]

We used to back horses like this when I worked abroad, we also used to reschool ex-racehorses by just getting on and hoping for the best when I came home I was surprised to learn about how different people's methods in the UK are of softly, slowly.

Everyone has a different way to do things. Neither is necessarily right or wrong, just different. There's nothing to say that this way is detrimental to the horse in the long run and neither does the horse look terrified. It's certainly in a frame of mind where it's able to learn, as the second time he gets on it it's considerably calmer and more accepting of the situation.

I agree with other posters when they say they've seen a lot worse - so have I.

 

[Charem]

I've seen similar before, and it may be the way its done on the continent but I still don't agree with it.

Yep the horse is taught to go forwards but how many times do you think that rider got thrown off other horses before he learned to be able to sit like that? Nobodies perfect and even the best rider is going to get caught off guard at some point and fall...and when that happens it completely cancels the whole 'teach the horse that the rider wont fall off' lesson and if anything reinforces the notion that riders do go splat if you turn yourself inside out enough.

Far better to gradually introduce tack, rider, ect.. and greatly reduce the likelihood of an all out rodeo and therefore reduce the chances of falling off. After all, its a hell of a lot easier to sit to a 3 year old that's quietly walking round than a 3 year old that's broncing like the horse in the video.

 

[Queenbee]

I know it shocks you all, but it's not unusual and your average lovely imported Dutch WB has been backed that way. The principle is get on and stay on.

Actually not that shocked, the most I can say is get rid of the tit in the green jacket with the whipping fixation! Whenever the rider/handler talks to the horse, the horse calms, when the rider tries to get on the horse for the first time... He could have, but stops then mr green whips up a storm! It's not the worst I've seen but certainly not the best.

 

[cptrayes]

A lot of assumptions here, why do you think it's a rushed job? Only because the getting on is done at a different stage of backing process doesn't mean time isn't taken to produce the horse.
Note, for example, there is no bit and pretty much no contact with the mouth, that will come later, after the basic going around is established, the horse gets a bit of balance and is less likely to wobble/rush off suddenly etc, meaning it will pretty much never get socked in the gob by accident.

I think it's a rushed job because the horse is shown being very unhappy at the saddle being put on and girthed up. And only a couple of minutes later he is being backed.

Personally, I would want to see the horse happy to have the tack put on before backing on the same day. I have backed nearly all my baby horses on the same day as they were saddled, because they accepted the saddle very calmly. But if I had one which was clearly scared, as that one was, I would want to see that fear go first, and then I would lean over it and wait for that fear to go, if there is any. Then sit on it, then ask it to move off. If necessary, I'd take as long as it took. With many horses it can be done in minutes. The rushing is, for me, not the amount of time he took, but the fact he continued to the next stage when the horse was still clearly unhappy about the earlier ones.

I do note the lack of a bit, but I also note what looks to me like a very severe noseband deliberately set so low as to cut off the air supply if pressure is applied.

 

[Queenbee]

It teaches 2 very basic and important lessons from the word go:
1. you do not unseat rider
2. FORWARDS

2 very fair and very valid points! Interestingly enough, I got my boy at six months old, from then until the age of 3 PE managed to display an alarming panache for bucking... High!!! Now, I could deal with that and I planned to back him myself but after I lost ebony I had no strength and sent him to a pro for three weeks... This was a year ago. We hacked on for a year and this week started cantering in the school, at canter, he started bucking proper (he now has the hindquarters strength for this) and my tactic was to send him on in canter, regardless of bucks, squeals or changes of leg... This is no different to what that horse is learning, although my boy is learning it a year down the line.

 

[littlemare_]

...I wish I could stay on like that

 

[RainbowDash]

Like it or hate it. My first thought was Wow that guy must have velcro pants

 

[Queenbee]

T

Eta the cynic in me says give the man a cowboy hat and he'll have a fan club in two minutes flat......

Best HHO quite in 2013 'like'

 

[MrsElle]

I found the video quite fascinating. The horse seems pretty well handled and reasonably calm (given the crowd) prior to the saddle being fitted, and the rider praises the beast frequently.

I do understand that the idea is to keep the horse moving forward, but the twonk with the whip wasn't helping at all. The backing process could have been done in a much calmer way if he wasn't walking round flicking at the horse all the time.

Still prefer 'our' way of doing it, but don't have a huge problem with the video.

 

[Enfys]

and greatly reduce the likelihood of an all out rodeo and therefore reduce the chances of falling off. After all, its a hell of a lot easier to sit to a 3 year old that's quietly walking round than a 3 year old that's broncing like the horse in the video.

LMAO, sorry, but that was not an all out rodeo, and that horse was bunny hopping, not broncing. (As I said, I live in Hicksville, I go to a lot of rodeos)

 

[tankgirl1]

I am a 30 something novice, who helped to back a fair few horses back in my teens when I was invincible.... that was uncomfortable viewing - looked more like 'breaking' than backing.... Not for me sorry! I would rather the softly softly slowly slowly catchy monkey....

 

[tankgirl1]

Yes I noticed the severe noseband too..... made me cringe... poor horsie!

 

[Spring Feather]

Yes I noticed the severe noseband too..... made me cringe... poor horsie!

It's a rope linked through the headcollar. Used in a similar but milder fashion to a stallion chain.

 

[cob&onion]

I am old fashioned and have only ever lived in this country, to me a horse should have all the preparation before a jockey gets on. That should be the final stage and in fact it should be the easiest bit if the ground work has been done correctly.

Agree!

Like it or hate it. My first thought was Wow that guy must have velcro pants

haha!!

 

[Enfys]

It's a rope linked through the headcollar. Used in a similar but milder fashion to a stallion chain.

That is what I thought too, someone commented and I wondered if it was a bosal type noseband similar to the Colombian ones I use on my horses now - so I watched again to see exactly what he used.

Not terribly different to a Dually (which many HHO members rave about) really.

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

The video wasn't that bad but

What if it all went wrong?
Where do you go from there?
More force, more pressure?

Don't understand the people saying "well he wasn't using a bit". Well he was using something to hang onto the horse that evened up the difference between the strength of the horse wanting to run and a man.

If you don't believe in magic (which I'm pretty sure most people don't) the horse was compelled by force to do something it didn't want to do, not because the horse was bad but because it didn't know what the hell was going on.

Once you start on that road, how do you stop?

 

[Enfys]

The video wasn't that bad but

What if it all went wrong? Same as you do with anything, you do it again
Where do you go from there? At the beginning, or a couple of steps back from where it went wrong
More force, more pressure? Why?

Don't understand the people saying "well he wasn't using a bit". Well he was using something to hang onto the horse that evened up the difference between the strength of the horse wanting to run and a man.
Doesn't everyone use something at some stage? Be that a bit or a noseband of one sort or another?
How many times on here do we read advice to use a Dually, or a rope halter on a strong youngster? I don't see the difference between using a slightly stronger halter on a youngster whether you are on board or on the ground.

If you don't believe in magic (which I'm pretty sure most people don't) the horse was compelled by force to do something it didn't want to do, and given the choice our horses would all tack themselves up, or lock themselves into stables would they? We compel them to do what is required of them all the time, it is part and parcel of the life of a domesticated horse I think

not because the horse was bad but because it didn't know what the hell was going on. No, it didn't have a clue what was going on, but it wasn't ill treated either. Not BHS but not RSPCA either.

I don't think that that horse will be traumatised for life.

How about these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3DUcalP2N0&list=PL64F1869849B7CCD3

 

[Spring Feather]

That is what I thought too, someone commented and I wondered if it was a bosal type noseband similar to the Colombian ones I use on my horses now - so I watched again to see exactly what he used.

Not terribly different to a Dually (which many HHO members rave about) really.

Okay I had to look up Dually halters (I'm not a gadget person ) but yes it seems that they are very similar and work in the same type of way to the rope. He only uses the rope to guide the horse prior to him mounting though. He had long reins attached directly to the sides of the halter which were what he used once mounted, although from what I saw (and have seen in the past) reins are rarely even held, let alone have a contact, for the most part of the first riding process.

 

[Queenbee]

The video wasn't that bad but

What if it all went wrong?
Where do you go from there?
More force, more pressure?

Don't understand the people saying "well he wasn't using a bit". Well he was using something to hang onto the horse that evened up the difference between the strength of the horse wanting to run and a man.

If you don't believe in magic (which I'm pretty sure most people don't) the horse was compelled by force to do something it didn't want to do, not because the horse was bad but because it didn't know what the hell was going on.

Once you start on that road, how do you stop?

No offence, but traditional or natural horsemanship... It doesn't really ever matter... At the end of the day no horse, no matter what approach is implemented is ever going to wholeheartedly 'want' a rider on its back. Its only ever about making the process as comfortable as possible to the horse, no horse is ever going to jump up and down saying "please sit on me I want that so much". As a result every horse in this world that takes anything on its back, is compelled to by some form of force, you may not feel comfortable with that idea, but its a fact, if you don't want to accept the idea, I understand that but the bottom line, no matter whichever way we cut it is that the horse does our bidding, it does what we want it to do, not what it wants to do..If it had its way, No saddle would touch its back and would spend its life eating grass with no Ill effects

 

[Queenbee]

Okay I had to look up Dually halters (I'm not a gadget person ) but yes it seems that they are very similar and work in the same type of way to the rope. He only uses the rope to guide the horse prior to him mounting though. He had long reins attached directly to the sides of the halter which were what he used once mounted, although from what I saw (and have seen in the past) reins are rarely even held, let alone have a contact, for the most part of the first riding process.

SF how long have you been on here and today you have to look up dually halters???!! Shame on you :

Simplyamazed.com.

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

I don't think that that horse will be traumatised for life.

Neither do I.
Just found it all a bit unnecessary and IMO runs the risk of escalating if it doesn't work out so well.

And what of the people watching?
So much publicity at the moment for instant results. I believe that people who don't really know what they are doing are better off being encouraged to take the slowly, slowly approach.

 

[Spring Feather]

SF how long have you been on here and today you have to look up dually halters???!! Shame on you :

Simplyamazed.com.

I know I do feel rather embarrassed but I've never looked before because it's not something that sounded useful to me I'll just get my coat ...

 

[Spring Feather]

Neither do I.
Just found it all a bit unnecessary and IMO runs the risk of escalating if it doesn't work out so well.

Have you ever seen it done like this in real life? I've never once seen it not working out well tbh. Every time I've seen it done like this, it's turned out exactly as it does in this video.

 

[Queenbee]

I know I do feel rather embarrassed but I've never looked before because it's not something that sounded useful to me I'll just get my coat ...

Yep no, still not a useful gadget!!

 

[Spring Feather]

And what of the people watching?
So much publicity at the moment for instant results. I believe that people who don't really know what they are doing are better off being encouraged to take the slowly, slowly approach.

I meant to reply to this part of your post too in my previous reply but I didn't. Anyhow, what of the people watching? Are you implying that they don't know what they are doing? I've been one of those watchers. I've also backed a huge amount of youngsters over a 40 year period. They've all turned out very well. I think I'm fairly sure I know what I'm doing by now and no the slowly, slowly approach is not the only way to back a horse. I think there are a few on this thread who haven't backed many horses tbh because anyone who backs a lot of horses for a living is always interested in other techniques whether or not they choose to use them

And thanks for that QB, I'll not be rushing out there to buy a dually halter

 

[Queenbee]

Have you ever seen it done like this in real life? I've never once seen it not working out well tbh. Every time I've seen it done like this, it's turned out exactly as it does in this video.

I agree, all the pros I know that adopt this approach do not have a problem, they ride. Through and get the job done.

Tbh, I'm no pro and I would take my time, but of all the people (idiots and sane folks) I know, if they went to a demo similar to this (which so many I know have done) it would not entice them to try this method, a demo is a demo of someone else's. skills, it gives tips and insight, that is all.