What are peoples views on this

[Equilibrium Ireland]

I don't take months to start one. But we do take time for basics, for the horse to understand what we're asking, to be forward and happy, and to build muscles to cope with riding. No point in ruining a mouth early on.

Terri

 

[Pale Rider]

Speed is not really in the hands of the person. If you do things right, you can progress quite quickly, but, it's the horse that dictates the speed. The stages are important, you shouldn't progress until the horse is ok and confident with what you've done so far. Equally, no point in going slow for the sake of it, if the horse is happy to do more, do more.
This guy, is ignoring the horse and just forcing his own agenda. As I say I've seen worse and better, but I wouldn't use this guy myself and would probably have to re back horses he's worked on to get them how I want them. Better really if he left them alone.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Exactly PR.

Terri

 

[Goldenstar]

The big issue with this type of approach is that it misses out on the physical preparation of the horse for riding ( of course we dont know what's been done before the video in this case.)
I asked this question at the thing organised it was like the NH person did not understand the question I was asking he just kept saying this way is kind and humane with out explaining why doing it in twenty minutes is more humane and kind than taking say a month.
I often backed mine when grooming I preferred to back with out a saddle ( some people think this a mad approach ) but it worked for me you sort of know when the moment is.
At one time I backed unhandled horses they where herded into the stables from a lorry this was hard it was work and we where under considerable pressure to turn them round in six weeks , some where much easier than others and the YO did send some back not " finished" as it where.
We did them three times a day ten minutes a time they got no turn out , it was not much fun and IMO unfair halter starting them and having them so you could catch them would have made it so much easier for them .

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

We get in unhandled's for one client. They get loaded from a chute. In 6 weeks they're riding quietly and happily. Once they get into a routine they start coming around. Our routine includes all day turnout. Not great to catch starting out but my gelding Frank helps with this part. We had one that really was difficult to catch for a few weeks. But we made an area for her to be able to go to her stable from the field. She eventually got the point. But I won't not turn them out. Not fair and I don't agree with young horses(or any horse) being stabled 24/7 unless working.

Terri

 

[Goldenstar]

We get in unhandled's for one client. They get loaded from a chute. In 6 weeks they're riding quietly and happily. Once they get into a routine they start coming around. Our routine includes all day turnout. Not great to catch starting out but my gelding Frank helps with this part. We had one that really was difficult to catch for a few weeks. But we made an area for her to be able to go to her stable from the field. She eventually got the point. But I won't not turn them out. Not fair and I don't agree with young horses(or any horse) being stabled 24/7 unless working.

Terri

I hated it , we where not allowed to turn out in case they damaged themselves which I thought it was ironic as they where pretty feral when they arrived .

 

[Enfys]

If they have to do this to run the business, they're in the wrong one.

Anyone who buys this sort of backing is asking for trouble.

I wonder how many people with imported warmbloods have horses who have been started in just this way (before they came over that is.) Do they know how they were backed?

It would be interesting to know if horses backed like this, compared to the traditional 'slowly, slowly catchee monkey' method have more, less, or no problems in comparison.

Very hard to do, as each horse differs of course, and whilst a fairly stoic type will be fine with this, would a more sensitive type suffer in the future?

Interesting thread, and interesting to read peoples views and opinions.

 

[Enfys]

I have no idea why any hackamore device is seen to be kinder than a bit - they both are designed to put pressure on a sensitive area. A baby who has been properly mouthed is a lovely thing.

Essentially he was using a basic Dually whilst on the ground. Someone commented that the reins were then attached to the halter rings.

As for putting pressure on a sensitive area, everyone does that everyday just by putting a halter or bridle on a horses head. It is like a bit (as in can cause damage) - only as severe as the hand at the end of the rein.

No, hackamores are not kinder by any means, I agree. Just different. I ride my Arab in a sidepull (marketed as an English jumping hackamore) and my Paso in both a curb and a bosal, basically, a double bridle.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

What's slowly slowly catchee monkey? The ones I describe above spend the first 2 weeks out of 6 learning a routine, learning to lead, learning be touched and groomed. They go from a pretty ideal life in their eyes to a completely new and strange world. I like for them to be confident with what's happening to them.

I just find the hypocrisy with this thread funny. Pretend there is no video. Then describe on this forum what happened as you watching the action somewhere in Wales. Well we'd have the obligatory teeth, saddle fitter(I'm sure all breaking yards on the Continent have custom fit saddles for the 100 odd horses in the yard hahahaha!), back, chiro and comprehensive vet checks including mri's and bone scans oh and scope checks. Then add in horse is 3. They don't really buy into that paper Debbie what's her name wrote on maturity. As a matter of fact I do believe the KWPN has researched the importance of early work to build a stronger horse. But if you add in this horse is from so and so producer from Holland or Germany people all the sudden don't give a fig about any of that stuff. Nope we are just amazed at how well a rider stays on. So I'm sorry I find it all a little laughable.

Terri

 

[Enfys]

What's slowly slowly catchee monkey?


Basically " if you are cautious and patient then you will get what you want and not make any mistakes. but if you are hasty and impatient then you will make a mistake and you will never catch the monkey" (i.e. your goal)

The ones I describe above spend the first 2 weeks out of 6 learning a routine, learning to lead, learning be touched and groomed. They go from a pretty ideal life in their eyes to a completely new and strange world. I like for them to be confident with what's happening to them. Exactly, time taken is never wasted

I just find the hypocrisy with this thread funny. Pretend there is no video. Then describe on this forum what happened as you watching the action somewhere in Wales. Christ, No! I have seen rodeos in Wales that are far worse than any I have seen here at home, as well as some pretty nasty practices there - some of the cob boys aren't particularly sympathetic at times I can tell you.

The same things happen in the UK, just behind closed doors.

 

[Goldenstar]

What's slowly slowly catchee monkey? The ones I describe above spend the first 2 weeks out of 6 learning a routine, learning to lead, learning be touched and groomed. They go from a pretty ideal life in their eyes to a completely new and strange world. I like for them to be confident with what's happening to them.

I just find the hypocrisy with this thread funny. Pretend there is no video. Then describe on this forum what happened as you watching the action somewhere in Wales. Well we'd have the obligatory teeth, saddle fitter(I'm sure all breaking yards on the Continent have custom fit saddles for the 100 odd horses in the yard hahahaha!), back, chiro and comprehensive vet checks including mri's and bone scans oh and scope checks. Then add in horse is 3. They don't really buy into that paper Debbie what's her name wrote on maturity. As a matter of fact I do believe the KWPN has researched the importance of early work to build a stronger horse. But if you add in this horse is from so and so producer from Holland or Germany people all the sudden don't give a fig about any of that stuff. Nope we are just amazed at how well a rider stays on. So I'm sorry I find it all a little laughable.

Terri

I don't see the hypocrisy in the thread as I said I feel conflicted by the video and we don't know want went on with this horse on either side of the video , it has no context so you can only comment on what you see I don't understand the language some I am sure will but I don't .
He does stay on well he has got good balance whether this the best use of this talent is another matter I am glad you find people commenting on it laughable , it's good to laugh.
As for your comments on saddles backs teeth etc in the context of the video that's not really what I for one wanted to comment on .
I am not sure what you want people to do I have been about a bit it's no suprise to me that this goes on I know how the world works.
I have seen the work from Glasgow on the importance of early work in conditioning the horse for long term soundness which was done on TBs however that research was not as straightforward as its headline seemed.
You know we are not working here we are playing I feel no need to offer the obligatory list if things that might be wrong with this horse in the context of this thread.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

My point being was I see many critical remarks of how people do things in Ireland, UK, USA, but for some reason when it happens on the Continent it's ok. For some people are wowed by whatever they do and don't seem to care about the exact things they normally despise. You know like bashing Irish for hunting end of their 3yo year 3yo's. But a 3yo from Europe broken like this and has probably already been tested around 1m tracks is different. I'm not a fan of either but at least out hunting they will be doing more straight line work than circles in an arena.

So yeah it puzzles me I guess.

Terri

 

[martlin]

Crikey, we are talking about that video like it was some sort of display of abysmal cruelty. It isn't. It's a different method of backing a horse, not necessarily quicker, just different. It doesn't mean it's better, or worse than the UK accepted method. At the end of that video this horse isn't backed, it just allowed rider on its back.
There is more than one way to skin a cat, that is all.

 

[Goldenstar]

My point being was I see many critical remarks of how people do things in Ireland, UK, USA, but for some reason when it happens on the Continent it's ok. For some people are wowed by whatever they do and don't seem to care about the exact things they normally despise. You know like bashing Irish for hunting end of their 3yo year 3yo's. But a 3yo from Europe broken like this and has probably already been tested around 1m tracks is different. I'm not a fan of either but at least out hunting they will be doing more straight line work than circles in an arena.

So yeah it puzzles me I guess.

Terri

Ah I see where you are coming from.
I feel it's the demands of the market that drives a lot of these things .
Personally I have no issue with backing and starting three years just because a horse is in work does not mean its being overworked , however I don't buy horses whose cv shows they where hunted at three.
Surely no body thinks that any one place ,system , activity has the moral high ground as far as humane and good practise is concerned .
Personally I think the demands of young horse classes can be damaging but the best producers will be skilled in doing this in a low impact way so the fact I don't like it does not mean I would ever condem it.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

My thoughts which I'm entitled to. And I've never said or implied cruel. The thread gets people saying it's not a bad way to break horses because it was on the Continent. Hard to be objective when if you read through enough posts here when you know stereotypes shape responses. So yeah that's what I find laughable.

Terri

 

[Goldenstar]

My thoughts which I'm entitled to. And I've never said or implied cruel. The thread gets people saying it's not a bad way to break horses because it was on the Continent. Hard to be objective when if you read through enough posts here when you know stereotypes shape responses. So yeah that's what I find laughable.

Terri

Of course you entitled to your thoughts .
I for one am not in least in awe of the ' continent' I have been around to long for that.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

I would never by a 3 yo that's hunted or been jumping bigish courses for age to sort the wheat from the chaff. In either case it's too much too soon.

Terri

 

[martlin]

I don't hold ''the Continent'' as some sort hallowed ground to worship. I made a factual statement, not a judgement - it is a method of backing a horse widely used on the continent, or in continental Europe if you prefer, it isn't as widely used in UK. Don't know about Ireland, haven't been, neither do I know what people get up to in US or Canada or South America, for that matter.

 

[Pale Rider]

Lots of horses are wrecked on the continent doing too much too soon. Same in the States. I don't back horses I own till 4, then they do little or nothing till 5, I certainly wouldn't do anything serious before that at least.

I'm looking for horses to last, I don't want any of mine knackered before they are 10, if I can help it.

I know how much each year bringing them on costs, and understand the financial reason for starting early.

 

[Fellewell]

I see no problem with this method of breaking except to say that when a horse finally gets the message it's counterproductive to carry on provoking him. Regardless of whether you've got an audience who've paid to watch you sit a buck.

 

[cptrayes]

Crikey, we are talking about that video like it was some sort of display of abysmal cruelty. It isn't. It's a different method of backing a horse, not necessarily quicker, just different. It doesn't mean it's better, or worse than the UK accepted method. At the end of that video this horse isn't backed, it just allowed rider on its back.
There is more than one way to skin a cat, that is all.

In my opinion, it does make it worse. I have several reasons for saying this, but the most serious one, for me, is that the horse has been provoked into bucking by this procedure, and made to canter around with an additional 20% or more of weight on his back that he is physically unprepared for. For me, this is asking for injury to the horse and if this is truly the norm for backing young warmbloods on the continent then I understand now why so many young horses fail the vet with bone chips once they reach this country and xrays are taken.

 

[Pale Rider]

When I watch people backing horses on film, I always do it with the sound off. This is because I want to concentrate on the horse and it's interaction with the person. I don't want to be distracted by a lot of talking, often rubbish, lol.
When you do that, you lose track of whether the horsemanship or lack of it is from the states, UK or Europe.
Best way to study what's happening.

 

[Spring Feather]

My point being was I see many critical remarks of how people do things in Ireland, UK, USA, but for some reason when it happens on the Continent it's ok. For some people are wowed by whatever they do and don't seem to care about the exact things they normally despise. You know like bashing Irish for hunting end of their 3yo year 3yo's. But a 3yo from Europe broken like this and has probably already been tested around 1m tracks is different. I'm not a fan of either but at least out hunting they will be doing more straight line work than circles in an arena.

So yeah it puzzles me I guess.

Terri

I get where you are coming from Terri, and I sort of agree with you tbh. However I've owned and kept horses in the UK, USA, Canada and Europe and I can see some merits in many different ways of all things equestrian. Some are not for me, it's not the way I do it, and some I've previously thought are not for me but I've tried their way (IF it makes sense to me) and sometimes I've found it's better than the way I previously did things. Regardless of whether I choose to morph other techniques into my own backing/starting programme, I am still interested in how and why others do what they do. It's the way we broaden our views. I never listen to music/commentary on videos as I find it a distraction but even if I did I don't have any bias against or for any particular trainer and I couldn't care less what country they come from. I'm fairly open minded though, that most likely comes from living and experiencing different cultures and is probably why I show little/no allegiance to any one country. I personally don't think any country's traditional way of doing things is the best, I think some countries methods are worthwhile taking note of, while other methods used there, are not.

 

[rachyblue]

I don't think that was as bad as the headline post suggested. As someone else mentioned, stick in in a round pen and it's IH/Monty Roberts.

Mine was done by the book, he went off for backing, well handled and used to rollers, boots etc and basic lunging. Spent 6 weeks away doing the "softly softly" thing. He stands untied to be tacked up no problem.

Once he's decided he's had enough riding, out come the bunny hops! We then had to spend another 6 weeks a bit firmer, with someone sticky riding him through it. He isn't scared, just lazy and opinionated.

I think he may have been better of done this way, get it out of his system.

 

[Auslander]

I'm not convinced its a baby. Wondering if its an older horse that has declined to be backed previously, and he's been drafted in to see if he can get it going under saddle.

 

[NZJenny]

To me it looked like both handlers were actually quite nervous of the horse. Only watched the first couple of minutes, low tight noseband, big whip. Enough.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I was mostly struck by the straw bale "safety barrier". That horse could have easily ended up in the crowd without knowing the whole story I couldn't say what I thought about the rest of it.

 

[Jesstickle]

I am not good enough to do it that way but I don't have a problem with other people taking that approach. As previously said, horse learnt not to bother bucking and to go forward pretty quickly and the second time you see the guy mount horse has clearly worked that out

More than one way to skin a cat

 

[Jaycee]

Duallys are for pussys![/QUOTE]


God I've been riding a "pussy" around for the last 3 years and not a horse then?
Poor horse suffered such neglect from previous owner that her teeth were beyond repair, horse wouldn't tolerate a bitless bridle in any way shape or form would just "p**s off totally out of control -god spent hours schooling (trying to) her to get her to accept one to no avail - last resort was a dually and oh dear the shame of it she never looked back and became.....well I guess that "pussy"

 

[Anglebracket]

I'm not convinced its a baby. Wondering if its an older horse that has declined to be backed previously, and he's been drafted in to see if he can get it going under saddle.

The horse is eight.