Cam Eq
Well-Known Member
I can’t just post a picture of someone’s Connemara because I probably know them now or in the future but the chances of meeting the PRE’s owner are very slim
What are they using to get the necks?!
- Thread starter Cam Eq
- Start date
I can’t just post a picture of someone’s Connemara because I probably know them now or in the future but the chances of meeting the PRE’s owner are very slim
Cortez
Tough but Fair
An example of what? It's not fat, doesn't have a particularly massive neck, and manifestly isn't a show hunter/cob/pony.
No one has been rude to you, yet.
Cam Eq
Well-Known Member
Is that a threat?? it was adorablealice I was answering in the other comment. I really don’t think it matters if my example is not a Connemara. I just wanted to show the size of the crest? Would you like it if someone put a picture of your horse into a forum as an example?
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I repeat: the grey horse you have posted as an example DOESN'T HAVE a particularly large crest, nor is it fat, so I struggle to understand what you're getting at. It's perfectly possible to produce horses with good necks if they are naturally well conformed and properly trained.
Your question was how to get a good neck: that's how.
Cam Eq
Well-Known Member
That is the most similar example to the size of the crest I am talking about. Not bigger. I am also not talking about fat. I asked if it might be fat but I’m not saying the horse HAS to be fat to have the crest. I’m not asking how to get a good neck. I can do this on my own horses. But every horse has their limit of muscling and it’s the unnatural and excessive change that I mean.
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
Oh, they'll argue up is down about fitness and topline - You'd have to work a horse hard for hours each day to get the 'topline' the showing lot produce.
Then the good guys stay anonymous.
Ellibelli
Well-Known Member
I've taken the following from a 2008 article in The Horse. Hopefully this isn't done with show horses now but I think it shows that anabolic steroids can and have been used to bulk up a horse for showing purposes - maybe only in the US, but who knows....?
“Steroid” use has made headlines because of abuse in human athletes for the past decade, from Major League Baseball to track and field events. The topic has also become hot in the horse industry, from steroid use for bulking up young horses in sales, to attempting to enhance performance of show horses and racehorses. However, not all steroids are the same, and there is widespread misunderstanding about what the differences are between corticosteroid and anabolic steroids. Corticosteroids and anabolic steroids are not the same.
“Steroid” use has made headlines because of abuse in human athletes for the past decade, from Major League Baseball to track and field events. The topic has also become hot in the horse industry, from steroid use for bulking up young horses in sales, to attempting to enhance performance of show horses and racehorses. However, not all steroids are the same, and there is widespread misunderstanding about what the differences are between corticosteroid and anabolic steroids. Corticosteroids and anabolic steroids are not the same.
Floofball
Well-Known Member
OP, I think your right to question your suspicions - but I wouldn’t expect anyone to come on an open forum and admit to either doing or knowing people that may be doing the things you suspect. You may get pms though ?
I would‘ve thought that random drug tests during showing competition would detect any performance enhancing drugs.? I wonder if tests include detection of anabolic steroids as well as corticosteroid? Surely they test for them in the more athletic disciplines where physical ability is a lot more important than aesthetics? There must be guidelines available and relevant authorities to report evidential concerns to - if you were to find any evidence.
There a good and bad in all disciplines sadly.
I would‘ve thought that random drug tests during showing competition would detect any performance enhancing drugs.? I wonder if tests include detection of anabolic steroids as well as corticosteroid? Surely they test for them in the more athletic disciplines where physical ability is a lot more important than aesthetics? There must be guidelines available and relevant authorities to report evidential concerns to - if you were to find any evidence.
There a good and bad in all disciplines sadly.
jnb
Well-Known Member
It's hard not to take things personally when people make sweeping statements like showing disgusts me, all show horses work in a false outline which is exposed at the strip, show horses are all obese etc etc etc.
We show because we love it, and our horses.
Someone like me can only ever aspire to Search 4 A Star, I will never have a hope at anything else, I am an overweight, unfit rider who loves my cob to pieces and I happen to think he is good enough (but not with me on him, in Open classes) I am simply not a good enough rider and won't do him justice at top top level.
I know, with a producer on board and their version of schooling/hot housing, call it what you will, he would qualify.
But - I am not prepared to do that to him. So - he's been broken in nearly 3 years now and we can do an Intro test, hack around Somerford Park alone and hack just about anywhere alone. He lives out, all year round barefoot and fed on hoof friendly foods.
I have no doubt if fed like many (note I do not say ALL) produced horses he would be a laminitis risk and probably not the lovely sane hack he is now.
I hope we will achieve my dream (and currently it is a pipe dream due to Covid, my health and weight issues - unrelated before anyone tells me my health is due to being fat! -) But we will do it OUR way and no short cuts, side reins, drugs or anything else.
Above all I want him to be my companion for life. Showing isn't more important than that, not to me anyway.
So what I'm trying to say is, don't tar us all with the same brush.
We show because we love it, and our horses.
Someone like me can only ever aspire to Search 4 A Star, I will never have a hope at anything else, I am an overweight, unfit rider who loves my cob to pieces and I happen to think he is good enough (but not with me on him, in Open classes) I am simply not a good enough rider and won't do him justice at top top level.
I know, with a producer on board and their version of schooling/hot housing, call it what you will, he would qualify.
But - I am not prepared to do that to him. So - he's been broken in nearly 3 years now and we can do an Intro test, hack around Somerford Park alone and hack just about anywhere alone. He lives out, all year round barefoot and fed on hoof friendly foods.
I have no doubt if fed like many (note I do not say ALL) produced horses he would be a laminitis risk and probably not the lovely sane hack he is now.
I hope we will achieve my dream (and currently it is a pipe dream due to Covid, my health and weight issues - unrelated before anyone tells me my health is due to being fat! -) But we will do it OUR way and no short cuts, side reins, drugs or anything else.
Above all I want him to be my companion for life. Showing isn't more important than that, not to me anyway.
So what I'm trying to say is, don't tar us all with the same brush.
marmalade88
Well-Known Member
The point I was trying to make is most horses are fat so people don’t even recognise it anymore. How many articles have we seen about the horse obesity epidemic? My farrier has seen multiple horses already this year with laminate, admittedly your horse doesn’t have to be fat to get laminitis but there is a strong overlap if you drew a venn diagram. therefore obese horses rewarded showing people don’t blink an eye.
Also amateurs who are passionate and give it their best go (in any horse discipline) are the ones who pay fees and allow the top echelon events to run. Just look at BE. I think its great you enjoy and love your horse and want him to have a long and happy life.
Everyone takes everything extremely personally at the moment apart from the fact it’s been a rough 12 months for everyone people don’t seem to able to debate openly or have a civilised conversation anymore.
People make sweeping statements about things I’m involved with but I know it doesn’t apply to my horse so I just ignore it, if you know the facts about what you do and you believe you’re trying your best who cares.
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Well yours is gorgeous, and looks like he could also do a job. Not like some I saw not that long ago at Bramham, in the big fat hunter class. After a couple of minutes in the ring, some of them were truly laboured, extremely fat and not how I would like to see any horse of mine.
I agree that the people posting photos of their own horses are not the ones that would concern me.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I can understand why you don't want to post photos of the horse you are concerned about. Unfortunately I don't think that any of us can give an honest reply about that specific horse without seeing those photos or the horse in person.
I would state though that a horse can change a lot through their topline through good practices and care in far less than two years.
A horse that has been out of work for example (I'm thinking of ex racehorses who have been turned away as I have personally known a few of these) and is brought into work properly - good fitness programme and associated requirements - looks noticeably better after six weeks.
This of course doesn't mean that something dodgy didn't happen with the horse you are talking about, but I have no clue about that horse so cannot comment on it.
If someone asked me plainly 'is it possible to greatly improve a horse's topline through good practices over two years?' I would say 'yes' as it does sound possible and reasonable to me.
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
Dublin Horse Show has pictures of hunters from the 1930s who won in the show ring. Its amazing the difference. Even the one from 1991 is quite stark from what we see now. This would all stop if judges chucked out fat horses.
H&H recently featured prolific pony Pretty Polly https://images.app.goo.gl/7i8cjABp9JaCPVxk8
H&H recently featured prolific pony Pretty Polly https://images.app.goo.gl/7i8cjABp9JaCPVxk8
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
This right show horses have got fatter in my life time .
Leandy
Well-Known Member
I do think UK show horses have continued to get fatter even than they were in the 80's when I was showing. Which is surprising because there was the same discussion then about them being too fat. Although cobs and natives have always been the worst offenders. But that isn't what the OP was asking about. I don't think you can compare the toplines of horses from decades and centuries ago with today's horses. There has been substantial selective breeding in that time for the traits which are rewarded in competition and it is possible to substantially enhance certain traits over a few generations if you focus on it. That can lead to a conversation about breeding for extreme conformation but it doesn't mean that unnatural means eg drugs etc are the reason. There has also been considerable progress in the notion of working a horse in a "correct" rounded outline and therefore developing the muscles necessary for that and, of course, preferring and selecting for appropriate conformation for that way of going. I agree that horses can develop significantly over a couple of years however say from the ages of 4 to 6 or 7 just through maturing. I have one, a warmblood mare, now 8, with a large cresty neck and big bum topline (bigger when she is fatter but nevertheless noticeable even when she is slim and fit which she usually is). I was amazed when I found pictures of her with her previous owner as a newly started immature 4 year old. Gawky, weedy and with an upside down neck. She has matured an enormous amount in that time out of the ugly duckling stage. She showjumps, so no particular effort has been made with her neck and topline other than correct work but the development is notable. Really not far off the two photos posted up thread as not being possible naturally. I wouldn't have believed it previously either.
Cam Eq
Well-Known Member
Yes you are completely correct. Thank you for your input
Cam Eq
Well-Known Member
Thank you, that’s interesting ?
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
If ANY of that were true then you wouldnt be asking the question at all or most of your other questions on this forum
Last edited:
Cam Eq
Well-Known Member
All of it is true. There’s nothing wrong with getting second opinions
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
So going on this thread and your previous threads we have a vet who doesn’t know about dope testing, wolf teeth, building muscle or nutrition, or the biomechanics of a horse and who would rather ask random strangers on the internet than consult colleagues.
A producer of “top show horses” who doesn’t understand how to school a horse for lightness in the front, doesnt understand how to feed a horse for muscle or understand that a horse can be turned from scrawny wreck to lovely well muscled show horse in months not years.
And a breeder who doesn’t seem to understand the risks of covering a pony mare (so max 14.2hh) with a large warmblood stallion.
Frankly I don’t believe you at all.
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
Following your response as above, can we revisit your opening comment on this thread please.
Given your vast experience and veterinary degree, why did you open the thread in the first place ? Your opening question and subsequent comments are not those of a professional.
With your professional qualification and experience you are better placed than most of us to address your concerns with the judging panels and The Royal College/BEVA.
I wish you every success with your professionally produced horses, assuming the shows get going again in 2021, which I hope they do, as Covid19 has left me with a novice hunter that will soon be a teenager. She is already known as Miss Sicknote and Covid has given her another year on the dole.
Your questions and suggestions have puzzled me from the start, but I do agree that a lot of show horses are too heavy and a lot do not go on to do another job. Although, having said that, many of the older hunter producers did retire their horses to the hunting field, with many of them becoming hunt staff and masters horses. Work is on going to rectify this through the breed societies. Pleasure horses in general are too heavy and no doubt, as soon as some warm rain arrives so will all the health issues that go with it as the grass comes through.
The picture I posted was to illustrate that tarring all with the same brush in your opinion of show horses is unfair and incorrect. A correctly produced show horse can do all jobs and be a fit happy horse with longevity.
minesadouble
Well-Known Member
Presumably you were a showing enthusiast at that time as I can't see why else anyone would put in the probationary hours that panel selection demands?
Tihamandturkey
Well-Known Member
Wow this thread has turned a bit sour ?
Cam Eq
Well-Known Member
I’m not a vet, I have a degree in a veterinary discipline. I have ponies not horses (Connemara are often over 14.2) If you would bother to read my post the horse was not a “scrawny wreck” he was average weight and very well cared for maybe what some people would say is overweight. Of course I know how to do all of the above but sometimes it’s nice to get a second opinion and most questions I'm not even asking for myself! As far as I can see you have nothing better to do than criticise others on an online forum (using incorrect information) and frankly I couldn’t care less if you don’t believe me!
Cam Eq
Well-Known Member
Thank you. It was just a query I thought may have been common knowledge with some of the less professional producers. You are obviously not one and I must wish you every success with your horses.
Cam Eq
Well-Known Member
I agree, it’s very unfair. Poor people obviously have other problems in their lives
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
Not for the show ring they aren’t and not for breed standards either.
You get overheight connies but they cannot be shown as connies or registered in the main section of the studbook.
They are very Hot on connie heights with the BCPS recalling height certs for remeasurment regularly.
http://www.britishconnemaras.co.uk/breeding-owning/breeding/breed-standard/
https://cpbs.ie/breed-standards/
Cam Eq
Well-Known Member
I know that all too well but there are still so so many over 14.2. I won’t go into it as it’s very much a concern of mine
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
So these over height connies you have at top level, who you have no idea how to school to lighten thier front end or feed appropriately, which classes do you put them in exactly?