what are your views on the chifney bit?

[amandap]

Sounds like a good device for naughty children to me. Don't teach them to behave well, just force em with a bit of pain if they do wrong. Quick, easy and takes no brain power or effort. Ideal solution for humans in this busy modern world.

 

[milesjess]

Sounds like a good device for naughty children to me. Don't teach them to behave well, just force em with a bit of pain if they do wrong. Quick, easy and takes no brain power or effort. Ideal solution for humans in this busy modern world.

Sounds to me like you need educating on a chiffney bit before you give an opinion...

 

[equinim]

chifneys can be ridden in as the racehorses sometimes have them on with their other bit and they are ridden with both bits in.

they are best used with a leadrein on the chifney and a leadrein on the headcoller so u only need to use it when required.
can b disaterous in wrong novice hands

 

[Walrus]

Sounds like a good device for naughty children to me. Don't teach them to behave well, just force em with a bit of pain if they do wrong. Quick, easy and takes no brain power or effort. Ideal solution for humans in this busy modern world.

Isn't it more just an extension on the idea of pressure and release? Yes it's a sharp pressure but in the right hands surely the idea is to release when the horse behaves not to continually apply pressure for the heck of it. My horse has just been brought in from the field in a chifney - he walked calmly next to me and at no point did I apply any pressure, I don't believe he was in pain from just having it in. Now rewind a week and I brought him in in a headcollar with the rope round his nose - I was practically swinging from his nose and waterskiing alongside him through a muddy bog. Pulled him up and told him to behave and he reared up. The whole expereince wasn't exactly pleasant for me or him. He's been brought in in the chifney all week by experienced handlers who informed me that by day 2 he was walking in quietly. Yes it is a quick solution in today's busy society but that's the truth - I work all week, I'm on DIY - my YO brings the pony in daily. I need to make the process as quick and easy for everyone concerned. And yes that does mean that at times the pony is "forced" to behave but I'd rather that have a drawn out process in a bog every day for a week at the moment. I would class other gadgets e.g. draw reins more in the way that you described the chifney although am still open minded enough to appreciate that they may have a use in very experienced hands.

 

[amandap]

This is I think one of the reasons pressure and release is considered bad by some.Pressure dosn't have to be painful or severe to be effective. I would argue that introducing pain and severe discomfort makes the horse resist and brace and certainly not enjoy what he is doing at that time.

I try and imagine a bit of metal sticking into my mouth and even if used by an expert, horses are strong and if they pull as well the pressure can surely be excruciating?

Release is the part that is left out of the pressure and release (negative reinforcement) way of asking a horse. The release needs to be as soon as the horse makes the smallest 'try'/ effort to do what is asked, those small trys are often missed so the pressure is built and built and the horse doesn't understand why because his little 'trys' have resulted in more pressure (meaning no) rather than a release. (to say yes). Then us humans also carry on with the pressure or repeat the pressure when the horse has complied. A prime example here is constantly nudging legs once the horse is moving. Draw reins are often used (ime) to pull a horse into a desired shape or give the rider extra leverage (strength) on the bit to 'control' the horse by force.
I don't believe horses don't feel pain in their mouths or have less senstive mouths than us, in fact I guess their mouths are more sensitive than ours until they learn to push through and against the pain and need stronger bits.
Just my opinion and I know many more knowledgable peeps don't agree, in this case knowledge doesn't mean empathy (ability to imagine others feelings) imo.

There may be a place for chifney use in extreme situations where immediate 'control' is needed but I personally wouldn't use one because the potential for inflicting pain is high imo. I don't believe they should be used as a long term solution but can understand why they are used when different livery's have to lead horses etc.

 

[scarymare]

They are an essential tool for me and very effective if used by the right hands. Recent uses for mine are for bargey cob whom I can't hold in bridle for loading (cob people will understand this) and for TB who used to P*** off when I got her into field. Used twice on her and excellent since.

 

[Cuppatea]

For those who don know what a dexter is, this is a chffney:

this is a dexter:

and it looks like this whan used on a horse:

and this one is neither (straight bar, fixed, non moveable ring only under the chin not through the mouth) but still has a ring underneath so could still be confused for a chiffney:

I have never heard of horses racing with a chiffney on, in my experience horses that are led up with a chiffney on a seperate 'bridle' have the whole lot taken off before it leaves the paddock. im not saying it has never happened but It could well be mistaken for one of the above bits.

 

[somethingorother]

Me thinks some of you doth protest too much. Everyone has their different ways of doing things. But this is a debate on chifneys and there are two sides to that. Although apparently only those who use chifneys are entitled to an opinion on the matter?

I have never had to use one and i hope i never do. I can see that they may be useful for a one off dangerous situation but i do not think they should be used daily. The general consensus here seems to be chifney versus no control and inevitable injury. I think you are forgetting all the many other ways of training a horse. Most horses have times when they get wound up and excited but if they are trained correctly they will control this to some degree and not just go tanking off or rearing. And no, it's not an ideal world and we do get horses which other people have not trained correctly, but that doesn't mean some time and effort and training can't resolve an ingrained problem. I wonder how many of you have tried, compared to how many of you have just 'stuck a chifney on'. It's not a vital tool. It's a very harsh device and comands respect from fear of pain. If a horse can remember to not rear/ tank etc when excited because of a thin piece of metal in it's mouth, then with training it can also learn not to tank/rear etc because of a headcollar and leadrope. Only not through fear.

Don't like to train my horses through fear, i want them to trust and respect me. And i regularly handle youngsters and colts in just a headcollar. And they're not little lambs, they have just had some groundwork done with them to establish some rules.


Jump on me if you wish.

 

[nikkimariet]

I love how any post that is slightly controversial gets jumped on by 3 sets of people: those who agree, those who disagree, and those who make comments so silly it literally makes me roll my eyes.

Like with a lot of bits/tack....in the wrong hand a chifney could be a very bad idea. But I would think (and would like to think!) that somebody proposing to use one would have a very good idea of what they are hoping to achieve by using one....

We used to have a great big hulking 16.2hh wb mare/Duchess, who whilst well mannered in the stable and under saddle, was bolshy and would walk all over you on the yard....so we used a chifney.

IMO it's very much a placebo affect, as soon as we put it on her, she was foot perfect and polite! There were very very very few occasions where we actually had to use it with direct force....

 

[Allover]

Like with a lot of bits/tack....in the wrong hand a chifney could be a very bad idea. But I would think (and would like to think!) that somebody proposing to use one would have a very good idea of what they are hoping to achieve by using one....

No necessarily (sp!!) often people have an over inflated sense of their abilities and think they are perfectly capable of using spurs, draw reins, sharp bit etc when it is quite obvious they do not

BTW your horse is gorgeous.

 

[Chloe..x]

There a useful tool to have when used correctly. If one falls into the wrong hands then oh dear...

 

[Superstar]

I handle a lot of strong welsh cobs and welsh cob stallions on the yard - we use them when needed - I only weight 9 stone and compared with a pumped up 15h 600kg pure muscle built like a brick stallion there would be nothing I could do should a 'situation' arise. Everyone has different views but mine has always been paramount saftey for both horse, handler and other liveries......All carnage would break loose if I lost a cob stallion due to wanting to adopt a softy softy approach....they have their time and place and must be used correctly. often the boys will just dogtrot and bounce next to me in one as they know, but should I have them in a head collar they would be off and i would never hold them.

I challange anyone to try and hold onto a pumped Welsh cob stallion in just a head collar when he is having a moment...!!

It depends what is happening sometimes there are as good as gold and dont need need at all, but they are a handy bit of saftey kit when you do need them.

 

[mcnaughty]

Another parelli dually fluffy bunny by any chance?
I use chifneys, gags, spurs, draw reins, standing martingales and two reins on horses. I must be one of the most evil people going- but my horses are all happy...

Ah, I was waiting for that - the fluffy bunny card - what utter c++p. If someone wants to do pirelli and use a dually what on earth is wrong with that and what has it got to do with you! It is those that press their beliefs on others by name calling that is BS. The chifney is used mainly by the racing fraternity to enable very experienced tiny men and women to control very hot headed thoroughbreds. It works end of.

 

[only_me]

This thread made me LOL

So, anyone who uses a chifney is stupid, unable to train and look after their horse properly. And has been suggested that they return to the riding school.

Might I suggest those that think the above statement also head back to their nearest riding school (preferably one that does not put emphasis on parelli) and ask the instructors how to use a chifney?

A chifney is like any other piece of kit; in the wrong hands can do a lot of damage but in the right hands can be a valuable piece of kit.

 

[cptrayes]

Most horses have times when they get wound up and excited but if they are trained correctly they will control this to some degree and not just go tanking off or rearing.

Would you like to meet mine? Perfectly well trained, thankyou. An absolute angel to lead and load in a headcollar for months at a time. Then suddenly one day he will decide that he will not leave his friends. 650 kilos of horse picks me up and carries me to wherever he wants to go. It's me on the lead rope, not him. He isn't diverted by food. He doesn't respond to pressure. He isn't untrained. But his brain, which is overbred and VERY highly strung, simply switches off and the signals are not reaching him. He looks like someone on drugs when he is in this state - he is zoned out. This is a horse who, when he has decided that he has done enough work, will stand on his hind feet and attempt to box his way through a concrete wall. And whose brother, who I have never even seen, will do similar things, strongly suggesting that this behaviour is genetic, not a failure in training. The father was also temperamental and quirky, jumping Grand Prix SJ one day and refusing to play on another day.

I'm baffled why anyone would think it is wrong with this horse to put a chifney in his mouth, whereupon he retunes to his handler as if someone has waved a magic wand. Not only is he easier to handle by an order of magnitude, so that actually using the bit is not necessary at all, but it is also clear from his expression that he is an immensely happier horse! Someone else has taken responsibility, and he likes it.

Shock horror I also trained my new four year old to load in it too. He threatened once to rear on the ramp, so I put a chifney on him immediately. He tried once to pull on it, and gave that up as a bad idea. From that point on, he has been an angel to load. Now, I could have taken a month with a pressure headcollar, or clicker training, or Parelli, or some other mumbo jumbo, but can anyone tell me what on earth the point would have been? Solved in one day, happy horse, happy owner. What's the big deal??

 

[pansy]

Hi our gelding is in a chifney to come up from the field and go back - he has a lovely personality but can be really bolshy to lead - yes we have done groundwork with him and he can be good but when he wants to go he will either dragging whos with him behind them or just cantering up to his stable either way i can't bring him in & out every day due to work commitments so I want everyone to be safe -in a chifney he is a pleasure to lead - people have to be safe it would be nice to think that he can come out of it in the future but time will tell I'm not over keen on them but at the moment it's doing the job and with the mud & everything else at the moment it's the safest way to lead him xx

 

[somethingorother]

The fact that he listens when there is a chifney on him suggests he is not as far gone as you at first described. It sounds as if he is just ignoring you. He can't be 'perfectly' trained if he tanks off and drags you can he?

And as for happy horse, i doubt he was happy when that thin peice of metal dug into his highly sensitive tongue and mouth...

(you all sound as if you are fighting for your life here. Calm down a bit, if there's nothing wrong with a chifney then there's no need to fight so hard to justify it is there?)

 

[only_me]

lol, just thought of one example for the chifney haters who believe horses are untrained.

We have a 16.2 at the yard, who has the great manners. Dosent walk over you, barge through the door etc. Best mannered. However, if he has not been ridden before being turned out he requires a chifney to control him.

 

[Javabb94]

To be honest people should be allowed to use them when needed and should not be crictised for it.

I use one to load, i dont have to pull on it but the fact java knows its there, he goes in first time when the chifney is not on him he doesnt load, he just stands there!

So in the right hands they are fine and we have been taught to use it correctly by the instructor, we didnt just go out and buy one as we know how dangerous they can be when used incorrectly.

I know people who used them for walking very strong horses in from the field and now they dont have to use it as horse knows now to behave

 

[nikkimariet]

No necessarily (sp!!) often people have an over inflated sense of their abilities and think they are perfectly capable of using spurs, draw reins, sharp bit etc when it is quite obvious they do not

BTW your horse is gorgeous.

Haha I shall tell Bruce he has another admirer!!

Yeah I get what you're saying; makes me cringe and mentally think 'God what ARE you doing using that!'....poor ponies, but what can you do?!

xoxo

 

[ChloeC418]

When I was younger I had a 14.1hh pony, to ride he was fine, not strong, snaffle mouthed. To handle however, he was really strong (this was with my mum holding him, who is pretty strong & she couldn't hold him) he'd push his shoulder into you and tank off in the other direction, even with a bridle on. One show morning he did this so we had to chase a plaited pony, in travelling boots and show rug around a field. With a chifney on, he'd walk over to the lorry as good as gold.

Like any bit, it's very useful, but potentially harmful if used incorrectly.

 

[cptrayes]

The fact that he listens when there is a chifney on him suggests he is not as far gone as you at first described. It sounds as if he is just ignoring you. He can't be 'perfectly' trained if he tanks off and drags you can he?

You think I'm lying? Come and meet him, he's one in a million

And as for happy horse, i doubt he was happy when that thin peice of metal dug into his highly sensitive tongue and mouth...

But it doesn't. With it on, the rope is slack and he follows me like a big wet puppy dog. All my friends have suggested having him put down. I prefer to use a chifney, bit less drastic, don't you think ?

(you all sound as if you are fighting for your life here. Calm down a bit, if there's nothing wrong with a chifney then there's no need to fight so hard to justify it is there?)

Well, we have been accused so far of not knowing how to train horses, and of being cruel to our horses (you yourself accused me of digging the chifney into my horse's tongue.) I'm enjoying the robust discussion thanks, I don't feel any need to calm down, it's taking my mind off far more serious things going on in my life right now

 

[AndySpooner]

There may be kinder ways, but when you have 2 tonne of stupid animal on the end of a piece of rope, then i'm all for doing whatever it takes to stay safe, my life is far more important than a horse being able to drag me or leap and rear at me because its kinder, in my eyes every yard should have one or two in a place that is easy to find it when the situation arises where its needed.

I really do think this comment sums up a lot of the mind set on here and why there are such differing views.

All these big problems folk have with their horse, were little problems which, not being properly addressed became big problems.

When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them.
~Tom Dorrance

 

[Shysmum]

my view on a chifney - a great tool in the right hands, at the right time

if you don't know what it's for and how to use it properly, don't bother. Seen this happen once, not good.

Hope that helps

 

[Cadfael&Coffee]

When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them.
~Tom Dorrance

Off topic, I really like that- I find it usually true!!!

 

[AndySpooner]

Off topic, I really like that- I find it usually true!!!

Just despairing of Stroppy really, who not only has a horse half a ton heavier than the largest ever recorded, but an over developed sense of self preservation.

 

[Allover]

Just despairing of Stroppy really, who not only has a horse half a ton heavier than the largest ever recorded, but an over developed sense of self preservation.

That made me snort!!!!

 

[Zabby]

At my school we used that bit.

We had a nervous mare. At first she was lead with a halter/headcollar like all other horses. She took off every day. So she was lead with a chain. The first two days she was 'controlled'', the she started taking off. Now she got lead with a chain attatched to a lunge-line. Helped for another few days. Then she was lead with this bitting device. Lasted a week.

Four weeks after she was bought, she was sold again, still constantly rearing, kicking bucking and taking off. Difficult to fetch in the pasture and getting issues with fetching in the stall too. Too dangerous for the school (not a regular riding school but a highschool with horses as the main theme).

Let me tell you another thing. When they couldn't fetch her the last weeks, if it was my day at the barn, they called for me. It took me about 10 minutes to get her. I lead her with a headcollar, back to her stall. No misbehaviour whatsoever.
Because I had beaten her? I was big and dangerous? (lol!) I have some extraordinary magic powers? No. I just listened to her. When she ran away in the pasture I didn't chase her, just followed quietl, when she turned I rewarded her. When I lead her and she would start to tense up, I'd stroke her forehead or neck a bit and then walk on calmly expecting her to follow. I'm 160cm high, she's 180 at the withers.

If you need tools like this to controle the horse, you have no controle.

I can and will use a ropehalter and a long leadrope if I come to a ''bad'' horse. I will use a whip to point with and I willhit the horse if it attacks me, not otherwise. I'd never yank it in the mouth, it would definetly not make the day better.

 

[alligator40]

Another parelli dually fluffy bunny by any chance?
I use chifneys, gags, spurs, draw reins, standing martingales and two reins on horses. I must be one of the most evil people going- but my horses are all happy...

Sadly, you are in the minority.
Far too many Fluffies around these days.

 

[pastie2]

Sadly, you are in the minority.
Far too many Fluffies around these days.

Yup, all these dreadful gadgets were designed for the CRUEL! Fluffies know best!!