what are your views on the chifney bit?

IMO yes they do have there place but are far to offten used by inexperianced people that think they are experianced. and in most cases had the horses been correctly trained or re train in leading then there would be no need for them. personaly i would want them all melted down and people actually taught thier horses to lead. they break jaws if they tread on the end of the rope, the bits acts like a cheese wire.
 
nuttynugget said:
Would never use one!!!
If they are used by an inexperienced person and the horse rears can it not break their jaw??
Click to expand...

well then one must assume that you are either:

a: an inexperienced person ... or

b: Have never had to deal with a serious little SOB

I never thought I would use one, but then I got my youngster, the best foal I could have wished for to handle until his balls dropped then a rearing, cow kicking monster! First time in 20 yrs I have ever used a chiffney and very well worth it, stopped rearing straight away.

In understanding hands with the right t*at of a horse they can be an absolute godsend! Just knowing I can win is enough for my angel to behave like one!
:)
 
cptrayes said:
You think I'm lying? Come and meet him, he's one in a million :)



But it doesn't. With it on, the rope is slack and he follows me like a big wet puppy dog. All my friends have suggested having him put down. I prefer to use a chifney, bit less drastic, don't you think :) ?



Well, we have been accused so far of not knowing how to train horses, and of being cruel to our horses (you yourself accused me of digging the chifney into my horse's tongue.) I'm enjoying the robust discussion thanks, I don't feel any need to calm down, it's taking my mind off far more serious things going on in my life right now :)
Click to expand...


I'm not saying you are lying. But if a horse rears/ tanks with no regard to it's handler then in my opinion it obviously needs further work doing with it. I wouldn't call that a 'perfectly trained' horse.

Also i did not accuse you of digging the chifney into his tongue. That's how the chifney works. You yourself said he pulled back on it and then 'decided that was a bad idea'.... yes, because it hurt him. if we used an electric cattle prod to load a horse the first time, and then they loaded fine after that, is that ok??
 
pastie2 said:
Yup, all these dreadful gadgets were designed for the CRUEL! Fluffies know best!!
Click to expand...

Maybe not cruel, I don't think there are that many deliberately cruel who keep horses, but gadgets, as you describe are all designed to exert control. By constantly using gadgets to confine and control instead of getting through to the horse by training and addressing the small problems early instead of letting them become big problems there is no improvement for either the horse or handler, and all you do is cope.
 
OMG - right I am pro Chifney, in its place. I have just got in from foaling a maiden mare, between myself and my boss we have 50+ years experience and are constantly learning and taking on new ideas. The maiden had a tough foaling and although interested in her foal she did not want him to drink. We started off just holding her, applying a skin pinch etc, but she was not having it, trying to kick foal every time he went to suck. Then we got a bridle, still no good, just barged us. So we, horror of horrors, got the chifney out. Note we did give her a chance. Even in the chifney she was still not great, in the end as her colt was getting very tired and still had not drank she was doped, twitched up and had a chifney on. Foal got a decent drink. Now we could have bottle fed the foal but then the mare is not getting over her issues. I have no idea how you get a mare used to having a foal bashing her about, she was quite happy with us stripping her and there are no antenatal classes for young mares! Would you anti chifney guys just stood back and let the foal struggle and get weak?
 
Laafet said:
OMG - right I am pro Chifney, in its place. I have just got in from foaling a maiden mare, between myself and my boss we have 50+ years experience and are constantly learning and taking on new ideas. The maiden had a tough foaling and although interested in her foal she did not want him to drink. We started off just holding her, applying a skin pinch etc, but she was not having it, trying to kick foal every time he went to suck. Then we got a bridle, still no good, just barged us. So we, horror of horrors, got the chifney out. Note we did give her a chance. Even in the chifney she was still not great, in the end as her colt was getting very tired and still had not drank she was doped, twitched up and had a chifney on. Foal got a decent drink. Now we could have bottle fed the foal but then the mare is not getting over her issues. I have no idea how you get a mare used to having a foal bashing her about, she was quite happy with us stripping her and there are no antenatal classes for young mares! Would you anti chifney guys just stood back and let the foal struggle and get weak?
Click to expand...

Personally I think that in the circumstances you describe you do what you feel you have to. What I feel is wrong is when the use of gadgets become routine either in handling on the ground or to deal with riding issues.

Obviously, a maiden mare is subject to numerous influences including hormonal during foaming and the importance of colostrum for the foal is paramount. This is a one off, and does not really fall into the parameters of my argument.
 
As most things/gadgets, they have their place and if used correctly then they are very useful.

People who have never experienced a serious rearer are very quick to say that Chifney's are cruel or should be banned but if used correctly can turn a dangerous horse in to a horse that can be led safely.
Of course in the long term, time and effort should be put in to the training of the horse to reduce the need for the chifney but also to understand that no matter how much time is spent on the horse they may always need a chifney...each horse is different.
 
The only people I know have used a chifney have been dealing with a horse who came to them with issues; it's all very well saying that you should train the horse but training takes time, how are you supposed to handle a potentially dangerous horse in the mean time?
 
somethingorother said:
I'm not saying you are lying. But if a horse rears/ tanks with no regard to it's handler then in my opinion it obviously needs further work doing with it. I wouldn't call that a 'perfectly trained' horse.

Also i did not accuse you of digging the chifney into his tongue. That's how the chifney works. You yourself said he pulled back on it and then 'decided that was a bad idea'.... yes, because it hurt him. if we used an electric cattle prod to load a horse the first time, and then they loaded fine after that, is that ok??
Click to expand...

The chifney does NOT work that way unless there is stress on the lead line. If there is no weight on the lead line then the bit is so light and tiny that it has no effect of any significance at all.

With the first horse, I said he gets separation anxiety on loading once in about three months and behaves perfectly the rest of the time. When he goes off on one he looks like a drug addict, but of course you don't believe that, as you have already said. But lets assume, shall we, that I am telling the truth. How would you train that kind of horse then? The ones that DO exist, whether you like it or not, who have a serious, and inherited, screw loose. Who were born like it? When broken in, not by me, this horse left his companions and jumped two large fences to put himself back in his stable. He broke the windows on the horsebox when he was imported and his brother does the same. If I take him out on a hack tomorrow he will turn and run for home if a daffodil has grown on the verge where there was no daffodil last week. I have improved him beyond recognition in the five years I have had him, but he is still a very emotionally challenged horse.

Some horses are not "normal". You haven't met one yet. Lucky you, I bought one! I'd have sold him a long time ago but no-one in their right minds would buy him from me. I would have him put down rather than let him be passed from pillar to post for the rest of his life by people who can't manage him.

The horse who pulled back the once was my new one and he did it to HIMSELF. That's why it works and that's why prodding him with a cattle prod would be wrong training, because it would have been being done "to him". He taught himself the lesson and he learnt it well.
 
I think this thread entertainingly highlights the gulf between those posters who have owned a couple of cobs, and consequently feel it is their duty to preach about how horses should be handled and those people who have handled/worked with sufficient horses to appreciate that one size doesn't fit all.
 
siennamum said:
I think this thread entertainingly highlights the gulf between those posters who have owned a couple of cobs, and consequently feel it is their duty to preach about how horses should be handled and those people who have handled/worked with sufficient horses to appreciate that one size doesn't fit all.
Click to expand...

Haha this made me snort!!!

You may very well be right actually!!! :D:D apart from the cob part- it can be any breed of the horse and they think they know it all!! (not aimed at anyone in particular)
 
cptrayes said:
The chifney does NOT work that way unless there is stress on the lead line. If there is no weight on the lead line then the bit is so light and tiny that it has no effect of any significance at all.

With the first horse, I said he gets separation anxiety on loading once in about three months and behaves perfectly the rest of the time. When he goes off on one he looks like a drug addict, but of course you don't believe that, as you have already said. But lets assume, shall we, that I am telling the truth. How would you train that kind of horse then? The ones that DO exist, whether you like it or not, who have a serious, and inherited, screw loose. Who were born like it? When broken in, not by me, this horse left his companions and jumped two large fences to put himself back in his stable. He broke the windows on the horsebox when he was imported and his brother does the same. If I take him out on a hack tomorrow he will turn and run for home if a daffodil has grown on the verge where there was no daffodil last week. I have improved him beyond recognition in the five years I have had him, but he is still a very emotionally challenged horse.

Some horses are not "normal". You haven't met one yet. Lucky you, I bought one! I'd have sold him a long time ago but no-one in their right minds would buy him from me. I would have him put down rather than let him be passed from pillar to post for the rest of his life by people who can't manage him.

The horse who pulled back the once was my new one and he did it to HIMSELF. That's why it works and that's why prodding him with a cattle prod would be wrong training, because it would have been being done "to him". He taught himself the lesson and he learnt it well.
Click to expand...

I hear your pain, I have one of these 'inherited' mentalist. He has improved beyond all recognition (sp) but at times we do have to resort to a chifney, plus a dually. Sometime I use a chain over his nose as he tend to resent bits in his mouth at the best of times. Oh and Monty Roberts himself did a demo with him at the ILPH some years ago, so he has been correctly trained. When he loses it he gets that 'druggie' look about him, reverts into himself and really on his own planet with little regard for anything about him. These episodes are no longer that frequent - thankfully.
 
Zabby said:
At my school we used that bit.

We had a nervous mare. At first she was lead with a halter/headcollar like all other horses. She took off every day. So she was lead with a chain. The first two days she was 'controlled'', the she started taking off. Now she got lead with a chain attatched to a lunge-line. Helped for another few days. Then she was lead with this bitting device. Lasted a week.

Four weeks after she was bought, she was sold again, still constantly rearing, kicking bucking and taking off. Difficult to fetch in the pasture and getting issues with fetching in the stall too. Too dangerous for the school (not a regular riding school but a highschool with horses as the main theme).

Let me tell you another thing. When they couldn't fetch her the last weeks, if it was my day at the barn, they called for me. It took me about 10 minutes to get her. I lead her with a headcollar, back to her stall. No misbehaviour whatsoever.
Because I had beaten her? I was big and dangerous? (lol!) I have some extraordinary magic powers? No. I just listened to her. When she ran away in the pasture I didn't chase her, just followed quietl, when she turned I rewarded her. When I lead her and she would start to tense up, I'd stroke her forehead or neck a bit and then walk on calmly expecting her to follow. I'm 160cm high, she's 180 at the withers.

If you need tools like this to controle the horse, you have no controle.

I can and will use a ropehalter and a long leadrope if I come to a ''bad'' horse. I will use a whip to point with and I willhit the horse if it attacks me, not otherwise. I'd never yank it in the mouth, it would definetly not make the day better.
Click to expand...

And if you were leading a stallion out to cover a mare would you let him get away from you and quietly follow him untill he relaxes, give him a pat and carry on as normal. No because in that time some serious damage could have been done to anyone or anything in the nearby area.

Life is not black and white.
 
siennamum said:
I think this thread entertainingly highlights the gulf between those posters who have owned a couple of cobs, and consequently feel it is their duty to preach about how horses should be handled and those people who have handled/worked with sufficient horses to appreciate that one size doesn't fit all.
Click to expand...

And then there are people who has had their ways with difficult horses and won the battle without using gadgets. But I suppose that means that the mare in my previous post wasn't ''really'' bad, or the ardenner stallion attacking people wasn't ''that bad'', or the draft mare, or the shetland pony, or the throughbred that all would take off, rear and go ''insane''. Or when Crow taught himself to take off and go back to the pasture. Since it was handeled and dealt with without stronger bits or gadgets wit mechanical corection built in (like the chifney tunge poke) it must simply not have been that bad horses....?

I know one thing about horses. They arestronger than we are, even with equippment. And if you work only with gadgets, it won't be long before the horse realize it's still stronger.

Of course there are times where extra force is th best way to go, but they are never a part of the everyday routine and they are rare. By using technique and the intelligense we humans claim to have and be so proud of, we can show the horse that it's easier to follow us tha fight us.
If a horse is rearing, I adress the butt, not the head. A good whack with the leadrope on the butt enough times will make the horse think again before it gets up and ''locks'' the but in one place. I will whack the butt since a horse rearing over me is attacking me and that is but the only thing I'm definetly never tolerating. If the horse is just scared and rears away from me, I probably don't have to touch the butt, just swing the leadrope and my energy towards it. Then that's what I'll do.
The horse tries to take off, I work the butt around and make sure to stay in a good angle from the halter where he keeps his heas more towards me. I may adress the issue in a paddock where I don't have the need to hold him but can work with him otherways. And yet these ''acute'' methods are not the fix to the problem. The fix to the problem is getting a good relation in everydays work. Why does the horse take off or rear? How's he's point of view and how can I change that to a more positive one? Horses won't bolt or rear just for the fun of it (apart from testing foals/youngsters, but they're easy to handle), they do it because that moment stresses them a whole lot and/or they have no respect for the person handeling them. Which won't be helped through pain and stuff around their heads.

Can't stress it enough; you need to work with their mind and their butt, not their face.
 
Allover said:
And if you were leading a stallion out to cover a mare would you let him get away from you and quietly follow him untill he relaxes, give him a pat and carry on as normal. No because in that time some serious damage could have been done to anyone or anything in the nearby area.

Life is not black and white.
Click to expand...

I never said I followed the horse. But with a long rope I can let it get away from me without following it. I expected HER to follow me. And that was when she first tensed up, not when she was halfway across the country. Life isn't black and white, so don't read things into posts that's not written there. In most cases, a little patiense and respect to the horse prevents the bad behaviour. If that's not enough, you adress the behaviour when t comes, but not by putting gadgets on and try to cause pain.

Edit: You're talking of in the pasture? Of course that is a completely different problem and handeled in a different way. But it's an example that your mindset and way to work makes a uge differense when handeling problems. And a great example too, because you can't use gadgets untill you've already catched the horse. I didn't have to work much with her when leading because I proved myself as a safe point before that.

A stallion I'd chase away from me and the mare and make him go around me untill he stops and relaxes. I'd make his butt and feet work, not try to keep him still and quiet. Same with any horse in that type of situation. I wouldn't let a mare run to another mare either, the point is that I keep myself in control, not gadgets. If the mare in my example had tried to take off with me - which she didn't since she didn't find that necessary when I litened to her - I'd let her run around too.
 
Last edited:
well life would be easy if everyone could handle and train their horse from day one in the way they want to train it. However, reality check, many of us take on some one elses problems and issues, some of which are too ingrained to re train.
when this happens, short of being killed, you have to resort to using training aids, be that ridden or in hand. Not necessarily for ever but just to show the horse how he should be behaving.
Secondly, althought not ideal, some people have horses for pleasure, unlike others who make it their life. Therefore they simply don't have time to spend hours every day reeducating the horse, the just want a quick, simple way to deal with their horse effectively.
Oh, and some horses are just ruddy great big thugs that you will never reason with!
 
Zabby said:
I never said I followed the horse. But with a long rope I can let it get away from me without following it. I expected HER to follow me.
A stallion I'd chase away from me and the mare and make him go around me untill he stops and relaxes. I'd make his butt and feet work, not try to keep him still and quiet. Same with any horse in that type of situation. I wouldn't let a mare run to another mare either, the point is that I keep myself in control, not gadgets. If the mare in my example had tried to take off with me - which she didn't since she didn't find that necessary when I litened to her - I'd let her run around too.
Click to expand...

and what would you do if you were a horse transporter and often had to load horses that were highly strung and that you didnt know? what if you had to load them from beside busy roads or dangerous areas as often happens.
not all situations allow for your approach.

in the right hands the chifney doesn't hurt at all. it can often save the horse a lot of stress and trauma instead of it rearing and going over.
 
Anyone with a squidge of intelligence will try and address and correct unwanted behaviour in the simplest way possible. Of course I want to lead/load/deal with my horse in a headcollar and nothing else.

Would I use a chifney? Damn right I would, if I thought the situation warranted it. But I would always want to not use it, the same way I dont want to use a twitch or sedate but I would.

And I've only ever had to use one for any length of time for a horse that was difficult to turn out. In his chifney, he trotted with his nose just in front of you, squealing madly in excitement, but with no pressure on the chifney. It was not possible to hold him in anything else, and we tried everything. And I'm not going to give my horse handling credentials, lets just say I know the pointy end from the blunt end of a horse

You're not a bunny hugger if you dont use one or incompetent if you do, its your way of dealing with a situation until you find an easier or better way
 
Zabby said:
No. I just listened to her. When she ran away in the pasture I didn't chase her, just followed quietl, when she turned I rewarded her. When I lead her and she would start to tense up, I'd stroke her forehead or neck a bit and then walk on calmly expecting her to follow. I'm 160cm high, she's 180 at the withers.
Click to expand...

Maybe i misunderstood this?
 
Laafet said:
I hear your pain, I have one of these 'inherited' mentalist.
Click to expand...

Fun, aren't they :) ? I don't think anyone can really understand the "drugged" effect until they see it.

I wonder how Zabby, who suggests whacking his bum, thinks I should reach it? I am either not within 50 yards of it, him having decided, on this one occasion in 3 months, that he will simply rip the rope out of my hands and run off back to his chums, or I am tagging along for the ride swinging from his headcollar in a hopeless attempt to turn him. If I could reach it, does she really think that he would hang around to let me whack him on it? Not a chance!

I think what some people also don't seem to understand until they see it is that the chifney is like a magic potion. You put it on, and simply because it is there you never have to touch the thing. Like a magic wand has been waved and turned your crack-head into a born-again Christian.

Zabby you aren't the only one with a history of retraining other people's disasters. I've done that too, without even thinking about a chifney. But this horse is different, and until you meet one like him you will never understand. To be fair, before I owned him I would probably not have believed it either.

I wonder also how many of these people advocating "kinder" methods have the kind of horses who are forever at your jacket, or your hands, looking for their next "treat". I see people standing laughing at their "lovely boy" as it rifles through their pockets, thinking that it's cute. That's not my idea of good training.
 
cptrayes said:
I wonder also how many of these people advocating "kinder" methods have the kind of horses who are forever at your jacket, or your hands, looking for their next "treat". I see people standing laughing at their "lovely boy" as it rifles through their pockets, thinking that it's cute. That's not my idea of good training.
Click to expand...

It IS cute, it means their horsey worsey loves them more than anyone else in the whole wide world :D
 
amandap said:
This is I think one of the reasons pressure and release is considered bad by some.Pressure dosn't have to be painful or severe to be effective. I would argue that introducing pain and severe discomfort makes the horse resist and brace and certainly not enjoy what he is doing at that time.

I try and imagine a bit of metal sticking into my mouth and even if used by an expert, horses are strong and if they pull as well the pressure can surely be excruciating? :confused:

Release is the part that is left out of the pressure and release (negative reinforcement) way of asking a horse. The release needs to be as soon as the horse makes the smallest 'try'/ effort to do what is asked, those small trys are often missed so the pressure is built and built and the horse doesn't understand why because his little 'trys' have resulted in more pressure (meaning no) rather than a release. (to say yes). Then us humans also carry on with the pressure or repeat the pressure when the horse has complied. A prime example here is constantly nudging legs once the horse is moving. Draw reins are often used (ime) to pull a horse into a desired shape or give the rider extra leverage (strength) on the bit to 'control' the horse by force.
I don't believe horses don't feel pain in their mouths or have less senstive mouths than us, in fact I guess their mouths are more sensitive than ours until they learn to push through and against the pain and need stronger bits. :(
Just my opinion and I know many more knowledgable peeps don't agree, in this case knowledge doesn't mean empathy (ability to imagine others feelings) imo.

There may be a place for chifney use in extreme situations where immediate 'control' is needed but I personally wouldn't use one because the potential for inflicting pain is high imo. :( I don't believe they should be used as a long term solution but can understand why they are used when different livery's have to lead horses etc.
Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^^this brilliantly put!
 
RunToEarth said:
Another parelli dually fluffy bunny by any chance?
I use chifneys, gags, spurs, draw reins, standing martingales and two reins on horses. I must be one of the most evil people going- but my horses are all happy...
Click to expand...

No one off the bare foot brigade.

Yes iv used chifneys.

Same as anything if used right they can be useful, used wrong and harm can be done
 
AndySpooner said:
I really do think this comment sums up a lot of the mind set on here and why there are such differing views.

All these big problems folk have with their horse, were little problems which, not being properly addressed became big problems.

When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them.
~Tom Dorrance
Click to expand...

Absolutely!!!!! I hate it when I hear people call their horses stupid,mental, etc etc, usually means the horse has rather cleverly made THEM look stupid....... and noooooooo.I am NOT a parelli lover, we were doing pressure/release (properly) over 40 years ago.
 
Jeepers. You'd think the only reason everyone can't win the Olympic 100 metres is because they don't want to run it!

Not all people are born angels. Not all are born sane. Not all horses are born angels. Not all horses are born sane.

I'm sure that people have no difficulty at all understanding that one thoroughbred can run faster than another. The brain is only a soup of chemicals. Why then do some people have so much trouble understanding that some horses, like some people, have a very mixed up soup??

Most of the people spouting about the chifney on this thread have clearly never used one. The whole point of it is that the bit is so very severe when pressure is applied to it that the horse does not fight it. Only an idiot would allow a horse to fight a chifney because that would be one hell of a scared horse who should be managed a different way, and yes there are plenty of idiots in the world. But in proper use the horse pulls at it once, (the handler does not pull, the horse does it to himself) and usually only once, and then respects it from that point onwards, on a loose rein where it has no physical effect at all.

Rouletterose my horse is the overbred result of half a century of KWPN warmblood breeding targetting athletic performance at the expense of temperament. He cries when I talk to one of my others instead of him, and I mean "cries" just like a child sounds. If he was human he would have a statement of special needs, a classroom helper and probably live in a care home for his whole life. You need to meet one to understand.
 
cptrayes said:
I wonder also how many of these people advocating "kinder" methods have the kind of horses who are forever at your jacket, or your hands, looking for their next "treat". I see people standing laughing at their "lovely boy" as it rifles through their pockets, thinking that it's cute. That's not my idea of good training.
Click to expand...
You have no idea how inadvertantly funny to me this is. :D I am the scourge of some clicker trainers for my ego, apparent blind following of certain methods and meddlesome, obsessive ways... I was reading what some think of me just before I read this post. :)
Sort of makes you see lots of grey areas when you see yourself through the eyes of others. :)
 
Well I've owned my lad for nearly 6 years, can safely say I know him inside out, however, in the extreme weather something changed and he became the raging tb that would have done well going back into racing, and as he was being so silly and rearing, I bought a chifney for him, for everyones safety including my own! once the chifney is in, he is like a lamb..... on a headcollar he was dangerous.... so in the right set of circumstances, yes I think a chifney is a good idea.
 
On my old WB mare when she was fully fit she would barge and drag you to the field in the mornings and then back again in the evenings, she would literally walk all over you and if something was in the way she would slam you into it.
In went the chifney and after a couple tries no more barging, yes i used it on and off for a couple of months but never needed it again till she was pts 20odd yrs later.
It was safer for her, me and everyone around us, as she would just have tunnel vision to where she was going and nothing would stop her.
I would still use a chifney if i ever needed to and will always have one in my tack room.
Great piece of kit.
 
i dont like them personally, im wincing at the thought of them being in the incorrect hands. i understand however some people have to use them or have no choice and thats absolutly fine. but for me, i dont think would ever use one.
 
I'd rather use a stallion ring than a chifney.

stallion_ring.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top