what are your views on the chifney bit?

[Zabby]

Whacking bum ewas for a rearer rearing at you. A rearer rearing 50 yards away isn't really a problem..

If you have a horse attempting to take off, and you go at the butt the right way, the horse will turn around and get the butt away from you and the face towards you.

I'm NOT saying that these methods will work on every horse at every situation. That's the fun with horses; you have to figure out what works with that siruation and that horse. These are good ways to start if you have that kind of problem, thn the horse may respond unexpectedly and this is where you use your brain to outsmart it.

Keeping the face will rarely do any good in the long run. It's getting the butt and feet to work with the horses head in the acute situation, and training everyday behaviour in all parts of the horse handeling (even parts that's not a big problem) that makes the horse safe and easy.

How many of you with horses that will run away or pull in the halter has spent a few minutesevery day to teach the horse to soften and yield off the preassure? As in standing beside it, taking the slack out from the rope and waiting for the horse to turn it's head and give the slack back. To the right, left and down. That is an excellent way to keep the horse from pulling through. It may not be all of the answer, but a little part. Lots of small parts get big.

Fun, aren't they ? I don't think anyone can really understand the "drugged" effect until they see it.

I wonder how Zabby, who suggests whacking his bum, thinks I should reach it? I am either not within 50 yards of it, him having decided, on this one occasion in 3 months, that he will simply rip the rope out of my hands and run off back to his chums, or I am tagging along for the ride swinging from his headcollar in a hopeless attempt to turn him. If I could reach it, does she really think that he would hang around to let me whack him on it? Not a chance!

I think what some people also don't seem to understand until they see it is that the chifney is like a magic potion. You put it on, and simply because it is there you never have to touch the thing. Like a magic wand has been waved and turned your crack-head into a born-again Christian.

Zabby you aren't the only one with a history of retraining other people's disasters. I've done that too, without even thinking about a chifney. But this horse is different, and until you meet one like him you will never understand. To be fair, before I owned him I would probably not have believed it either.

I wonder also how many of these people advocating "kinder" methods have the kind of horses who are forever at your jacket, or your hands, looking for their next "treat". I see people standing laughing at their "lovely boy" as it rifles through their pockets, thinking that it's cute. That's not my idea of good training.

 

[Zabby]

How many in this thread is discussing this from a view of handeling unknown horses once in their lives at risky/unusual situations for the horse?

I've already said that there may be times when force and gadgets/tack may be the right answer. But those times are rare and never part of the daily routine.

I woudn't mind seeing anyone use this bit for a short time on an unuly horse that perhaps bolts without warning or is impossible to hold with a rope halter (I have yet to meet that horse) no matter how you do it - if the person also trained and worked the problem in other ways. I don't think it's the best thing since this bit gives a completely different preasure than a regular halter/headcollar, so it's difficult to transfer the training to work without the device later. But I'm not against it.

But where do you usually see these things in peoples barns? As everyday tools, or used without any other work to solve the problem, it's normally used to not have to worry about actually dealing with the horses issues. People may use it wih an intent to actually work the problem, they put this device on, the horse gets nice and then they get surprised when the horse still won't go nice in a regular halter - because they havn't adressed the issue to actually train the horse. And in worst case scenarios, the horse learns to pull through this too and then there are no last resort anymore.

and what would you do if you were a horse transporter and often had to load horses that were highly strung and that you didnt know? what if you had to load them from beside busy roads or dangerous areas as often happens.
not all situations allow for your approach.

in the right hands the chifney doesn't hurt at all. it can often save the horse a lot of stress and trauma instead of it rearing and going over.

 

[Zabby]

Maybe i misunderstood this?

That was with a loose horse. When leading it was to adress the stress she showed before she started to misbehave. Naturally I won't pet a misbehaving horse.

 

[Zabby]

Zabby you aren't the only one with a history of retraining other people's disasters. I've done that too, without even thinking about a chifney. But this horse is different, and until you meet one like him you will never understand. To be fair, before I owned him I would probably not have believed it either.

I wonder also how many of these people advocating "kinder" methods have the kind of horses who are forever at your jacket, or your hands, looking for their next "treat". I see people standing laughing at their "lovely boy" as it rifles through their pockets, thinking that it's cute. That's not my idea of good training.

I wasn't aware that we talked about a specific horse. I still very much doubt that a chifney is the best and only answer - especially for the rest of the horse's lifetime. It may work, and it may be an easy way out for both horse and rider if the horse learns to keep the slack on the rein/lead and the rider/person is good with release and timing. But I still believe that there ae other issues underneth the behaviour, that would help in the long run and would help the mental health and behaviour overall of the horse. Finding such reasos can be difficult enough, adressing them might be worse or easier depending on what it is. And if the chifney works, it may not be absolutely necvessary to find those reasons. but I still think it would be good.

I hate begging horses or any horse climbing on you, I doubt the horses are very content and happy with that behaviour either.
I'm not really a ''kind'' or soft person, I believe in respect from both sides, understanding but also consistens and firmness. Lots of ''natural'' horse people would probably think I'm cruel. I've ust found that gadgets and devices shouldn't be necessary. I ride in a shanked bit because of the way it ''talks'' to the horse, not because it makes me stronger - the horse stops and turns as well in a snaffle or halter. Same with other equipment; I don't judge them of how they can be mis-used, I judge them of how they're intended to be used. And the chifney is a device I have a very hard time finding a good use for other than in extreme/acute situations. Like a twitch and sedatiing. If I need to sedate my horse to lead it, I need to adress the problem. But I will sedate him when pulling the wolf teeth out. If I'm leading someone elses ''crazy'' horse once ;I'll use a chifney. On my own horse I'd work with the problem.

 

[Spring Feather]

And in worst case scenarios, the horse learns to pull through this too and then there are no last resort anymore.

I handle hundreds and hundreds of horses every year and although I rarely use chifneys, I have done on many horses over the years, and I've never ever come across one that doesn't respect it. A chifney IS the last resort and it works.

You sound like a lovely person with great ideals however you also sound like someone who has not dealt with a varied range of horse types.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

I handle hundreds and hundreds of horses every year and although I rarely use chifneys, I have done on many horses over the years, and I've never ever come across one that doesn't respect it. A chifney IS the last resort and it works.

You sound like a lovely person with great ideals however you also sound like someone who has not dealt with a varied range of horse types.

I agree, the Chifney is a last resort to those who haven't the time or inclination to try alternative methods. But your last comment is extremely condescending. Just because you "handle hundreds and hundreds of horses every year" is of no consequence - what percentage are truly unmanageable without the use of a Chifney?



.

 

[Zabby]

I handle hundreds and hundreds of horses every year and although I rarely use chifneys, I have done on many horses over the years, and I've never ever come across one that doesn't respect it. A chifney IS the last resort and it works.

You sound like a lovely person with great ideals however you also sound like someone who has not dealt with a varied range of horse types.

Why thank you

But I've handeled a horse that learnt to pull though that. The mare in one of the other posts. I can't say how she was handeled, it was a lot of different people using it and leading her so I doubt all of them was doing it in the best way, but still she learnt to pull through and take off despite the bit.

 

[Allover]

Zabby, now i think i understand your posts better. You are saying that at the right time in the right place the chifney can be a useful piece of kit BUT if a horse is trained to respect its handler and understands and has respect for, and from, its handler then the chifney should not need to be used?

If that is the case then completely agree with you

I think we all know on here though that there are situations that arise with horses that need to be dealt with there and then, especially when horses have learnt to mistrust or disrespect the human handling it, for whatever reason.

 

[skewby]

Wow, contentious issue! Good thread!

I don't really have an opinion. My vet insists on handling all horses in chifneys, I had an opinion on that, and flatly refused to let them put on on mine. Because never on this Earth would he need that, and he proved me right when they backed down and handled and lunged him in his headcollar.

I would however have less of a reaction to seeing a horse led quietly in a chifney, than I do from seeing numerous horses being hoiked in the gob on a regular basis by a too strong bit and nasty hands, ridden.

 

[Tinypony]

Skewby, are you saying your vet was going to lunge your horse in a chifney?

 

[Spring Feather]

Why thank you

But I've handeled a horse that learnt to pull though that. The mare in one of the other posts. I can't say how she was handeled, it was a lot of different people using it and leading her so I doubt all of them was doing it in the best way, but still she learnt to pull through and take off despite the bit.

Interesting. What mouthpiece does your chifney have? Mine has a ported mouthpiece and as I mentioned above I've never handled a horse that has not totally respected it.

 

[Cadfael&Coffee]

Wow, contentious issue! Good thread!

I don't really have an opinion. My vet insists on handling all horses in chifneys, I had an opinion on that, and flatly refused to let them put on on mine. Because never on this Earth would he need that, and he proved me right when they backed down and handled and lunged him in his

What on earth...???? I have never come across a vet like that, and if one insisted I put a chifney on mine I'm afraid he would be told were to stick it!! How dare they assume that every horse needs a chifney!!

As I've said before, there are a few situations when I would consider a chifney, but never on a horse that did not need one!!

I'm sorry, I really can't believe that!! I'm glad you told them where to go though!!

What rubbish!!

 

[Zabby]

Zabby, now i think i understand your posts better. You are saying that at the right time in the right place the chifney can be a useful piece of kit BUT if a horse is trained to respect its handler and understands and has respect for, and from, its handler then the chifney should not need to be used?

If that is the case then completely agree with you

I think we all know on here though that there are situations that arise with horses that need to be dealt with there and then, especially when horses have learnt to mistrust or disrespect the human handling it, for whatever reason.

Yeah, basically that's what I mean I guess But I don't really believe in the chifney as a part of re-training the horse since it gives so different signals than any ''nicer'' head-tack. The chance that the horse wil learn to give to a halters preassure on the poll and mouth when dealt with by preassure of that bit is rather small. It can be used at some times and you might succeed, but I don't think it will be any help.
Perhaps a solution would be to use it in everyday life when you don't have time to deal with the situation, and also set time off with a halter alone to specifically work the leading problem. To save frustration and accidents. We all know that working when you're stressed out is a bad idea, so working a rearer and at the same time have 15 other horses to care for before work is probably a bad idea.

With this I'm leaving this thread. I don't have anything more to add and those not agreeing with me by now probably never will anyway

 

[Zabby]

Interesting. What mouthpiece does your chifney have? Mine has a ported mouthpiece and as I mentioned above I've never handled a horse that has not totally respected it.

One with that ''u'' shape in the middle that pokes the tounge.. didn't know there were different chifneys, actually..? Thought the O-shaped one had another name.

 

[mcnaughty]

If you have a horse attempting to take off, and you go at the butt the right way, the horse will turn around and get the butt away from you and the face towards you.

.

And as it runs past you it gives you a sly kick on the way. I have had this happen - thankfully the young TB mare in question had no shoes on but her bare hoof still left a pretty coloured bruise the size of a side plate on my thigh for weeks.... Actually I prefer my horses to stay where they are supposed to stay - by my shoulder with 4 feet on the ground and I will use whatever means necessary to keep them there!

 

[skewby]

I use Willesley Equine, and I'm sure others can corroborate as I know many of us use them. They're fab, but yes they will only handle AND LUNGE in a chifney. Soon as they were ready for the horse, the vet nurses came over with the chifney. I kicked up a bejesus of a stink, said I'd sign a disclaimer, whatever they wanted, but they were not putting that in my horse's gob as never in this world would he require it! (I also pointed out, that never in this world would it be big enough, as my horse is extra full and a 6.5" bit. Which would have added to his discomfort, so as far as I was concerned they could take a running jump.)

As I said; when the vet arrived, he saw straightaway that I meant business and told the girls to take the chifney away, and went about his work quite happily with my lad still in the headcollar in which he arrived.

Have been their numerous times with friends' horses and it is their policy. Most owners go along with it just fine. They told me that if a horse got away from them and damage was caused, the chifney would prove they had taken all necessary precautions.

I also saw, whilst there, many horses being lunged in the chifney, and more often than not I FELT it affected their way of going. So I was dubious as to the wisdom of it on that score, as a horse unhappy in its head is going to wave it about, thereby affecting the rest of its body/movement. Surely not what you want when assessing a horse on the lunge for any sign of lameness.

 

[Allover]

Skewby i am shocked, a bridle OK but a chifney, no way!!

Ooh, just realised that rhymed!!!!!

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

I use Willesley Equine, and I'm sure others can corroborate as I know many of us use them. They're fab, but yes they will only handle AND LUNGE in a chifney. Soon as they were ready for the horse, the vet nurses came over with the chifney. I kicked up a bejesus of a stink, said I'd sign a disclaimer, whatever they wanted, but they were not putting that in my horse's gob as never in this world would he require it! (I also pointed out, that never in this world would it be big enough, as my horse is extra full and a 6.5" bit. Which would have added to his discomfort, so as far as I was concerned they could take a running jump.)

As I said; when the vet arrived, he saw straightaway that I meant business and told the girls to take the chifney away, and went about his work quite happily with my lad still in the headcollar in which he arrived.

Have been their numerous times with friends' horses and it is their policy. Most owners go along with it just fine. They told me that if a horse got away from them and damage was caused, the chifney would prove they had taken all necessary precautions.

I also saw, whilst there, many horses being lunged in the chifney, and more often than not I FELT it affected their way of going. So I was dubious as to the wisdom of it on that score, as a horse unhappy in its head is going to wave it about, thereby affecting the rest of its body/movement. Surely not what you want when assessing a horse on the lunge for any sign of lameness.

Bizarre! Sounds like someone has lost their nerve re handling horses. Cannot understand the logic of lungeing a horse in a Chifney either.

 

[Kokopelli]

I use Willesley Equine, and I'm sure others can corroborate as I know many of us use them. They're fab, but yes they will only handle AND LUNGE in a chifney. Soon as they were ready for the horse, the vet nurses came over with the chifney. I kicked up a bejesus of a stink, said I'd sign a disclaimer, whatever they wanted, but they were not putting that in my horse's gob as never in this world would he require it! (I also pointed out, that never in this world would it be big enough, as my horse is extra full and a 6.5" bit. Which would have added to his discomfort, so as far as I was concerned they could take a running jump.)

When my boy fell ill he was sent here and they didn't put a chifney in him, perhaps it was because it was an emergency or maybe they have changed their methods since.

They are still amazing vets and I wouldn't think twice about sending a horse here, although they are not my normal vet.

 

[Tinypony]

That's bright of them isn't it? Take a horse that has potentially never had such ironmongery in it's mouth, then lunge it off it and think you will be seeing it's usual way of going. Would anyone lunge off a bit anyway? I wouldn't.
I've come across this situation with vets only handling horses in a chifney though, to my cost. It never occured to me that my vets would routinely slap a chifney in the mouth of every horse they handled (when the owners weren't there). I had to leave my mare there for xrays and she came home headshy and wouldn't let me any where near her mouth. The vet denied using a chifney, but a vet nurse told me later that they did as a routine. So my poor horse, who had never even been ridden in a bit...

 

[jenbleep]

The horse I rode Frankie used to get rather excited when he was being turned out, and his field was across the main road so we used a Chifney to keep him under as much control as we could! Worked for us

 

[somethingorother]

Love how anyone who dares to say they don't like chifneys (never mind that most of us say in rare and drastic one off cases then they have their place!) is either a fluffy bunny hugger, a dopey cob owner or has only ever had one horse and it was a saint....

Which of us live in a black and white world?? And which of us need to get in the real worl... ?

 

[Zebedee]

I will use any tool or piece of equipment that does the job I need it to. If the choice is between using a chifney or putting myself or the horse at risk in anyway the chifney wins hands down. Several that I have found the need to use one on in the last few years have been ruined by inept NH type handling. Obviously not all NH handling is inept -far from it, but those who decide to 'have a go' after seeing a demo, or watching a DVD are little short of lethal !

 

[cptrayes]

I wasn't aware that we talked about a specific horse. I still very much doubt that a chifney is the best and only answer

Yes I thought you weren't reading what I was writing. So I will ask the question again.

The horse is genetically programmed to be extremely over emotional and over reactive. His father is himself described as "quirky" and throws stock with similar traits to my own.

I have spent five years improving his behaviour beyond recognition in the face of my friends questionning why I continue with him at all. He will now stay in a stable rather than climb the door. He will travel quietly as opposed to taking out the windows. He will hack out past hens that he used to insist were going to kill him. He will follow me anywhere and he cries if I leave him. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

He throws separation anxiety behaviour on loading roughly once every three months. I handle him mainly completely naked (him not me ) most of the time and the rest in a headcollar and lead rope if we are going somewhere. The separation anxiety can occur with horses that he has only seen in a collecting ring and has no relationship with, but who he suddenly decides he is not prepared to leave.

You are so insistent that I should not need a chifney for him if only I had him properly trained. How would you retrain this horse not to need a chifney on that one time in three months?

 

[yeeharider]

Rouletterose my horse is the overbred result of half a century of KWPN warmblood breeding targetting athletic performance at the expense of temperament. He cries when I talk to one of my others instead of him, and I mean "cries" just like a child sounds. If he was human he would have a statement of special needs, a classroom helper and probably live in a care home for his whole life. You need to meet one to understand.[/QUOTE]
This statement made me cry I too have a horse that fits into this catagorie he was abused as a youngster and it has taken me years to get hm to trust me I would never use the chifney on him i think he would die

 

[Zabby]

Yes I thought you weren't reading what I was writing. So I will ask the question again.

The horse is genetically programmed to be extremely over emotional and over reactive. His father is himself described as "quirky" and throws stock with similar traits to my own.

I have spent five years improving his behaviour beyond recognition in the face of my friends questionning why I continue with him at all. He will now stay in a stable rather than climb the door. He will travel quietly as opposed to taking out the windows. He will hack out past hens that he used to insist were going to kill him. He will follow me anywhere and he cries if I leave him. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

He throws separation anxiety behaviour on loading roughly once every three months. I handle him mainly completely naked (him not me ) most of the time and the rest in a headcollar and lead rope if we are going somewhere. The separation anxiety can occur with horses that he has only seen in a collecting ring and has no relationship with, but who he suddenly decides he is not prepared to leave.

You are so insistent that I should not need a chifney for him if only I had him properly trained. How would you retrain this horse not to need a chifney on that one time in three months?

I'm insisting that a horse ''needing'' that tack in every day routines needs better training and/or a more confident person.

First off, once every three months is NOT everyday routine. Even if I doubt most horses will have any benefit of it and even if it's more often than I like, it's not every day.

Second off; You are not training with the bit, as I understood it. You're training without the bit and using it as a last resort when the training wasn't enough. As far as I'm concerned from your description, your training with him isn't ''finished'' and you're not using the bit as a solution instead of helping the horse get over his issues. You still work with him to get him more confident by the way you handle him, right?
Besides I have no idea how your horse has been trained in any part of his life, why he gets crazy every third month (perhaps he rather needs medecine to keep the hormones right, what do I know?), if the tack fits, what he has experienced or even how he acts up when you feel you need that bit. How on earth would I know how to train him? Plus, I'm not a professional and I'm not the best horseperson in the world. I've never claimed to be. I have experience with horses but most off I have experience with horse people. And in 99% of the cases when people need more severe tack for controle, the basic issue is training and attitude of the rider. They normally claim it's impossible on their horse. Some realize they're not skilled or motivated enugh to train and that's why they need the tack. (which is a good step because then they are open to learn)
But I still believe that somewhere there is a reason for the horses behaviour and that severe tack will only fix the symptoms, if anything.

Third: Fine. You might have a super special horse that requires pain to be obedient and can't possibly be trained otherwise. How many people using severe tack will use that excuse? :3 Not saying it's impossible that those horses excist, but I wonder how often that's really the case related to how often people claim their horse to be such. (And if those horses wouldn't be better of dead, really. Still talking of everyday routine crazy. And a bit of his father; why on earth breed on it?)

I'm not blaming you for using the bit once in a while. I'm not saying it's cruel to use it during those circumstanses. Obviously you have done a great job with the horse already. Perhaps he just needs even more time. Perhaps he has a brain damage. Perhaps anything. I'm not saying I could have done a better job. But I still believe that there is another way to handle it - even in a special case like this - if you find the true reason to why the horse acts up, there is a big chance that you can find a true solution for it. What stirs the emotions that gets so 'big'' for him? What does he need to stay calm in his mind, what's lacking and how can you give that to him? And I'm not even saying that you have to fix it or find that other way with this very horse, but I still believe it's there. And I bet it would be really exciting to find out what it was.

And I definetly believe that this bit is not solving any problem and shouldn't be used as a solution or instead of training (I've said this before too, and you are obviously training him as well, not only relying on the bit or using the bit as the main aid in the training). It may be necessary in some situations, and under some periods of a horses life during re-training - for safety, but training without it and with focus on working with technique rather than force is still necessary to help the problem and get the horse to a state of mind where he will feel good and be safe. That is my view on the chifney bit as such, and not related to your specific case.

 

[cptrayes]

But I still believe that there is another way to handle it - even in a special case like this - if you find the true reason to why the horse acts up, there is a big chance that you can find a true solution for it.

Zany do you really believe that there is not one horse in the world who was simply born odd? Especially when they are the product of generations of breeding designed to produce movement and not taking account of temperament? Where others in the family show the same behaviour? I find that German horses are known for being much calmer, in general, than KWPN with Dutch origins, for precisely the reason that KWPNs were focussed on their huge movement while the German's also bred for trainability.

The true reason my horse behaves the way he does from time to time (not on any timetable, at random) is because he is mentally unstable, just like some people are mentally unstable. He's a fragile, neurotic brained creature in a huge, athletically capable body. He looks very like Mistral Hojris, and that's a horse who has taken until he is 15 to consent to work on a regular basis, and even now there are days that they bring him out when he will not play nice, and they put him back on the lorry.

I do understand that you are not criticising me, please don't think that I do. But I can't understand how anyone who spends time with either humans or other animals can't see that some horses are born with undesireable behaviour hard-wired.

This is, by the way, NO excuse for idiots who don't know what they are doing to go hauling their horses about in a chifney! But they are a very useful tool to have in the toolbox.

 

[skewby]

That's bright of them isn't it? Take a horse that has potentially never had such ironmongery in it's mouth, then lunge it off it and think you will be seeing it's usual way of going. Would anyone lunge off a bit anyway? I wouldn't.
I've come across this situation with vets only handling horses in a chifney though, to my cost. It never occured to me that my vets would routinely slap a chifney in the mouth of every horse they handled (when the owners weren't there). I had to leave my mare there for xrays and she came home headshy and wouldn't let me any where near her mouth. The vet denied using a chifney, but a vet nurse told me later that they did as a routine. So my poor horse, who had never even been ridden in a bit...

That is an awful story. But yes, my horse went to Willesley for nerve blocks, while we were waiting for them to effect, I stood with him and watched numerous other horses being lunged in chifneys. Clearly uncomfortable in their mouths and moving oddly as a result, but hey what do I know?

If you look at their homepage, http://www.bwequinevets.co.uk/, it's not conclusive, but if you wait for the pic of a haltered horse being held by two owners/vet nurses to appear, you can just see the horse has something in its mouth, resembling a chifney. Also note the horse is in a leather headcollar, and you can see a headpiece also.

 

[bliss87]

my horse has to be turned in and out from the field in one because he gets far to bolshy when going to the field and if everything flips when you bring him in you cant hold him safly ina headcollar

he also has it on loading as he just walks up the ramp with it on unlike if hes in a headcollar

 

[Colleen_Miss_Tom]

Lol .....really am laughing out loud at some of these comments and how patronising some of you actually are .....Every situation and every horse is different .

I use a chifney practically every day for my 4/5 year old 16.2hh mare . She walks with no pressure at all needed .....Why do I continue to use it ?? Because she can have her moments where something will ....god forbid jump out at her and she is a big girl who would pull you off her feet in a headcollar .

She is in no pain WHATSOEVER with the chifney ...... every time I put it on her, she opens her mouth for the bit EVERY SINGLE TIME .....Do you think she would open her mouth if it caused her pain ??
She would not load due to a fall in the horsebox which was through no fault of her own . We did everything slowly until one day she decided that she was going to rear and drag anyone that was on the other end of the leadrope around the yard . Until one day a good friend of mine suggested the chifney whilst up her yard, From that day my mare walks straight into the box without any fuss .

She is a very happy mare and I will continue to use the chifney ......better to be safe than sorry, for her safety and for mine .