What do you think about Parelli?

[RuthR]

Can I just say something about why we ride bareback and bridleless (well, I still need a rope hackemore...but why other people do it

)

It is simply a test - a test of how good your communication is. We call this type of riding freestyle riding and freestyle leads onto finesse - riding with a saddle and bridel with short reins. Freestyle riding is also built upon the groundwork - on-line and liberty.

Freestyle riding is about making sure your horse knows his responsibilities - look where your going, don't change gait, don't change direction. It helps teach him about self-carriage and impulsion (in Parelli we define implusion as when whoa=go). It also helps you maintain your responsibilites of being a balanced rider with an independant seat and using the power of focus (how many times have you seen in traditional lessons the instructor shouting 'look where your going!'?

)

Riding bareback tests how good your seat is, riding bridleless tests how good your communication is. Its means that when you put a bridle with a bit on your horse you won't be pulling on that horses mouth for control because that will come through your seat and your body as a whole and you wouldn't be balancing yourself on the reins. The bit will only be used for highly refined communication.

So, bareback and brideless isn't where the journey stops...its just a test to see if you are truely ready to move on.

 

[Taboo1968]

And another way of getting another wad of cash for the next level!

 

[Mid]

I could get up on any of mine, no tack, and ride them around their field. But I honestly see no point in it. It doesn't prove that we have a bond, it just shows how my horse is willing to please.

I love my horse as he is, and he loves me, in the sense that he trusts me completely, and I spend hours grooming him while he arranges my hair, and he shares his dinner with me... And he's quite a greedy little horse! I'm not gifted or talented, and I certainly didn't spend hundreds of pounds on gadgets. He's ridden in a french link snaffle, which is softer then an egbutt, and I don't use it at all, it's just so that I can look after him if he gets scared (he was from a dealer, and judging by his reactions, he'd never been turned out before, so hacking was completely new) he responds to voice, I can bring him back from a gallop just by shifting my weight...

You see, we have a bond. Perhaps Parelli creates a bond for some people, but all I've seen is dependance from the horse. 100% dependence, for those at level 3, which I can't think is particularily good for the horse. I like mine as individuals. They all follow me around, but they also enjoy playing proper games with their friends.

I'll show you a vid of me and the smallest pony, doing bareback and following and things like that, if I can find someone who can work my camera (this is the reason there are no pics of me riding, but plenty of sisters and things).

Sorry for that VERY long post

Perhaps I'll give parelli a go, if I ever have a laidback horse who won't get upset, I don't want to risk it with any of mine. I did a bit with Jayjay, but he just got bored and wandered off.

 

[Mid]

But look at this video:

HERE

Parelli himself, about halfway through, see him pounding the horses chest with his heels to make it go backwards? I'm sure any of mine would back up if I did that! Also, for nearly the whole video, the horses ears were pinned right back.

 

[Rachel_M]

Which video sorry?

 

[Mid]

Edited because I forgot to add it!

-is dumb-

 

[Rachel_M]

Thank you!

 

[Mid]

You're welcome

 

[Rachel_M]

As I read through the post I have become more open to the Idea of Parrelli ( but definitely not the gadgets they charge for) but the basic fundamental they are trying to achieve.

However, just watching that video- The horse does not seem to be enjoying it, in fact rather uncomfortable to watch and as Deadpan say- if I did that I am sure that most horses would back up or spin away as the horse in the video attempted to do there- that's what a horse does when frightened or confused.

 

[Mid]

I think Monty Robert's joinup makes more sense. I've seen my horses do it in the field, and it's all explained in his book, which I got for 90p from a charity shop.

There are no bizarre gadgets involved, and although I wouldn't use it to "start" a horse, I would like to try it sometime. It's far more natural then Parelli, and seems to create trust more then PNH too.

 

[jinglejoys]

Beginner here and a Mule owner which is what I am told Parelli developed his training for.
"What you see on the ground is what you get in the saddle" and at present what I see on the ground is certainly not what I'd like to experiance in the saddle!

Join up is great for a flight animal like a horse but Mules are fight animals and it doesn't work well.

The Parelli method works much better on them.
Yes I'm one of those middle aged ladies but the reason I don't want to get on him is I don't want to ruin him by doing it for bravado when we aren't ready--so I'll stay on the ground,play safe and when the time comes I'll get on him (Nobody else wants to!!

)
I hope at the end to have a reliable animal I can handle.I'm sorry if this doesn't agree with the "experts" but there aren't any mule trainers in this country.

 

[Mid]

Mules are awesome, good luck

 

[jinglejoys]

Thanks Deadpan--I'm needing it Bless him!He'll be worth it in the long run

 

[nuzicanuz]

Parelli is 'horse sense' and alot of folks do not have it. I wanted horses all my life and finally purchased an eight year old mare when I was 47. She new right away I did not have horse sense and I thought "this is my friend Flicka?". I invested $16 in Parelli's "natural Horsemanship book". learned to make my own rope halter, and the other tools that "natural horsemen' use. Now I have two horses that I ride in just a rope hackamore, they run to the gate to meet me, they enter the trailer when I send them in.........the journey has been fun. All the information the Parelli's present is out there with other clinicians, the way the Parelli's have packaged it has made the difference. <font color="blue"> </font>

 

[Jackie111]

Been there and done that. Took up Parelli for something different. Love it. Can't go back to the 'old ways'. You reassess the horse/human relationship and move into a whole other sphere. You can give up going to the saddlery. I do not need any gear. My horse does everything at liberty - moving about the property, trail riding, getting on the float, playing at the beach. Currently we can do advanced dressage moves in a halter and now we are starting them at liberty. My horse &amp; I are nothing special, anyone can do this through the Parelli program.

 

[gemmah]

To everyone who is saying that they can already ride (if they wished) with no bridle and no saddle and that they have a great relationship with their horses, what's the arguement then?? You obviously have the skills needed to develop a good partnership already, I don't understand why everyone is getting all defensive? I have read a few posts on here from phn poeple which I feel have been quite judgmental and in some cases just plain rude, but it can be said for the other way to! If you have no problems then these comments obviously don't apply to you, but I'm sure we all see things, natural, normal, alien, whatever where things are just not working and it is in those cases that maybe something different might work better. On bridleless riding as said b4 its not about showing off or being able to do something pointless, it's just to see if the horse is 'mentally with you' if he is, gr8, if not it's your choice if you change that or not. Not so long ago in the back of H&amp;H where the pic and story is, there was a fabulous pic of a chap (sorry, in ignorence can't recall who it was) jumping a showjumping course with no bridle and I'm quite sure he had not heard of Parelli! Just a true horseman! Also a time when bridleless could have helped was the report where during x-country a competitors bridle broke and came off and said rider ended up with a few not very nice injuries. It's kind of like wearing your seatbelt. 99 times from 100 you won't need it, don't use it and probably hardly know it's there! but that 1 time it might just come in handy!
Just in response re the fit TB who gets strong x-country, of course if he is stong it doesn't mean he's unhappy! It sounds like he just looses his connection with you a bit and tunes more into the atmoshere and adrenalin of it all. And no thats NOT a critisism b4 anyone starts. The 'correctional' bits I refer to really is anything where you have the bit because you can't stop, steer, get the head up/down etc etc with out it! Any bit really can be used like that, but I just see so many on the market these days promising magical, shiny quick fixes (at ridiculous prices i may add) fror all your riding problems. If you use your bit to communicate then great if not then there's the problem, but please don't say it doesn't happen 'cos I see it all the time. As I've said so many times tho and it tends to just be skipped over by both sides, it's not about Parelli or not Parelli, or natural or normal!!! It's just GOOD HORSEMANSHIP !! If u have it gr8! If u don't then u might want to think about learning it some way. But for anyone to say a person who doesn't do parelli must have an unhappy horse that hates them and misbeaves is just rediculous and extremely rude, just as it is equally rude to say all pnh poeple are emotionally unstable clones who are too scared to ride! Right, Im off to RIDE my horse now! LOL

 

[Lulah]

I can appreciate that for many PNH enthusiasts, going through the levels has improved their relationships with their horses, whether they would have been able to do it a different way is irrelevant for it is up to each of us to choose a route that works for us.

I can also appreciate that when the 7 games are done in an intelligent and thoughtful way that they can help owners to learn about boundaries and having control of their equine in that they can move him forward and back, sideways, up and down. Therefore improving confidence and meaning the horse and human have a new level of interaction and a basis on the ground forming a foundation from which one begins the ridden work. That may be something that many of those drawn to Natural Horsemanship have never experienced before and thus you can understand their keeness to involve other people in what they consider a life changing event for themselves and their horses.

What I feel is important is whether those who decide to take PNH as their only route to horsemanship understand that there maybe flaws in the system that can be detrimental to the horses health and soundness, for example.....

Consider the impact of repetitive disengaging of the hind end on the horses joints.

Ask your self whether it is helpful to hand over complete responsibility to the horse for not only carrying himself but also the additional weight of the rider in a loose, disengaged, disconnected way that forces him to dive down on to the forehand and pull him self and the rider along. If you ride in this way how have you thought of the potential consequences on the long term soundness of your horse?

Does having the bit hanging around the horses front teeth and riding without a contact really help teach both horse and rider the feel of a consistent, elastic and supportive connection?

Think about whether sitting in the back of the saddle so that the riders weight is concentrated over the weakest part of the horses back will encourage him to lift his back and allow him to engage the hindquarter or will it depress the horses back so that it drops and becomes weaker?

If a human aims to sit with a rounded lower back and slumped posture what effect does this have on spinal health?

Have those that partake in this style of riding asked these questions of experts in both equine and human movement who may know the answers?

If you have an understanding of how the horses health and soundness can be affected by the above and still choose to do these activities then you have made an informed decison, and your priority may be that you can ride your horse bareback, with no bridle, that you play the games and do the exercises through the levels and you may be very happy with the results. That is a personal choice but I do think there needs to be an honesty about the limitations from the point of view of the horses physical development and a respect to people who may consider long term health, soundness and performance as a higher priority.

There is nothing kind or natural about riding a horse in a way that causes damage, in my mind it is both direspectful and abusive which as far as I understand are two of the very things that PNH claims so called "Un Natural training" is about.

 

[Castlecourtdaisy]

Just to say, Monty Robert's Dually halter is more expensive than the Parelli halter, unless something has changed since I bought mine those years ago?

And broken down, I think you'll find that join-up is basically a way of getting your horse to think "looking/going towards the predator = release of pressure" (rather than "oh my god, I understand now!!! That two legged predator is really a horse in disguise!! I must follow him!) which I think you'll find is actually similar to what's used in the parelli catching game, and parelli use a greater variety of things in their training.

But anyway, in general, parelli is just a different way of doing things. If so many of you have good relationships with your horses without this, then that's great! Just because you don't wave an orange stick in your horse's face doesn't mean a parelli fan like myself is going to think you can't possibly have a positive relationship with your horse (and those that do think that are a bit brainwashed in my opinion). Doing parelli games and such are just things that happen to work for me. And for the record, I've tried and I can still acheive results with my horse with a regular headcollar and schooling whip, a lunging cavesson, or nothing at all. I'd hate to have to rely on one particular piece of equipment!

 

[Skhosu]

oh dear, that video really shows why I don't like parelli. In it I can see him hit the horse with the stick on the face, and the horses head is up, it does not look happy (as it should do according to others) and it look sto me like a horse who is doing what its told out of fear rather than any heightened connection. any parelli people care to defend that video?

 

[CASP3R]

Ray Hunt ( an inspiration to many, including Pat ) never agreed to have any of his demos recorded, as clips get posted and quotes can be made that are out of context. This is not a specific defence of the video clip only a suggestion that people will see what they want to see.

Many horsemen advocate being as light as possible but as firm as necessary, Pat is no different. The video quality is poor and it is hard to see what cues Pat was using before waving his legs / stick.

 

[Rachel_M]

[ QUOTE ]
The video quality is poor and it is hard to see what cues Pat was using before waving his legs / stick.

[/ QUOTE ]


But being so connected to his horse the fact he still needs to wave his stick and legs in that severe a way does worry me.

To be honest, I don't see anything anymore that cannot be just done as well with English tack and good riding.

 

[gemmah]

Horay!!! Congratulations Titania!! Finanlly some one who has come on tho the board and made some sensible informed comments on the subject!! I totally agree with the comments on how damaging continuous work in freestlye can potentially be on the horse. The problem is that as the program is designed to teach the human, it is often the case that while learning it takes a long time for the human to reach a point where they can obtain the skills to cause the horse to work correctly. Once students reach the higher levels this part of the horses development takes a relatively short time and the rider is able to teach the horse engagement and self carriage as soon as he is ready as they have already developed their own skills. It is then possible, in time, to ride the horse in an engaged manner still with a loose contact. Think western reining etc that sort of thing. There is also the piont of getting the horse mentally and emotionally engaged b4 asking for physical engagement, and again it is the development of the rider that delays this, as the better you are the quicker you have the horse properly prepared.
I think the whole rider position thing has been blown out of all proportion though. When you watch the video demo's it does look very extreme and even quite strange as everything is hugely exaggerated in order to get the point accross. In it's final form the seat position is simply a slight rotation of the pelvis back to simply sitting more like a man (they do have to sit more like this than women for obvious reasons! lol!) It isn't a huge shift back to an armchair seat or anything like that. All the other bits of fluidity are simply aimed at helping the rider not to brace on the stirrups or against the movement and again once refined should be barely noticable.
The bit, whilst it is fitted low, will usually be held by the horse where it is most comfortable for him and again trial and error will show what each individual finds most comfortable and effective. I have seen problems with horses too much on the forehand many times and indeed have had to rectify it in my own horse. I am fortunate enough to have experience accross the board though in riding many horses in different ways and can call on this to make sure I strike a balance between the two extremes. I agree that it is something that does need to be addressed, if anyone is interested Equine Ethology have made some progress in this area. However, once again it is in the application of the programme rather than the programme itself.
For every one that watched the vid, I can't get it to stream properly but i think i know what you have seen. If anyone wants me to expain it I will try but my posts seem to be way2 long already and it wld take ages! lol. If not you can get some idea by getting your hands on any of the levels packs or for free you can google 'horse and country TV' and on their equestrian page there are about 13 short episodes of a Parelli tv program. Not sure how much any of you would enjoy them, but they are there and they are FREE!!
Cheers again titania for the intelligent comments, I would be interested to hear more from you as the freestlye/physical development thing is something I have been considering for a while and in what ways it might be possible to speed up this part of the learning process. With the seat thing there is a gr8 simulation you can do to feel what we are aiming for. If anyone wants to try it i'll tell u but be warned, u look pretty silly when you try it!! LOL.

 

[CASP3R]

I must have missed the bit of the video that says it's Pats horse ?

I agree with you good riding is good riding be it English, Spanish, Western, Cossack, Bare Back, Bridleless .....

 

[Rachel_M]

[ QUOTE ]
I must have missed the bit of the video that says it's Pats horse ?


[/ QUOTE ]

If it is not his horse then why would you be willing to use any form or stick or heavy handedness when you are just getting to know a horse, wouldn't that be the opposite of what you are trying to achieve?

 

[gemmah]

Good call CASP3R. I think Ray has the right idea!

 

[CASP3R]

Hypothetically speaking if a strangers horse stood on your foot what would you do ?

Whisper sweet nothings, ask it politely to move, shout at it or thump it ?

I don't think it matters that the horse in the video is strange the point is - being as firm as necessary. You need to find a way of being effective otherwise the horse will ignore you. Pat has his way and no doubt you have yours. But always use politeness first.

For all we know this is an afternoon session and Pat already did his hellos in the morning.

P.S. In the above scenario I would prefer to move my foot before it got stood on and then ask the horse not to move into my space.

 

[Rachel_M]

[ QUOTE ]
Hypothetically speaking if a strangers horse stood on your foot what would you do ?


[/ QUOTE ]

Quite a difference in the scenario to try and compare the two.

 

[gemmah]

miss-huggy-bear you will find answers to most of your questions in the new level one pack. don't know where u r based but if you are interested I'm sure there would be a local pnh that would lend you one. It is so hard to see on poor quality vids when there is no voice over to explain what is happening. I've also found, strange as it may sound, that super nanny on channel 4 has some very similar principles when working with children (not the carrot stick bit obviously! LOL!)

 

[CASP3R]

True, but the point I was trying to make is maybe Pat needed to wave his feet and stick as an effective means to get the horse to move after trying more polite methods like shifting his weight, squeezing with his legs, clucking ???

The next time or next day he may not need to back up his 'ask' with anything else.

 

[Rachel_M]

I might take you up on that.

I am open to things that help me be a better rider but I do believe that you still can compete, ride with "normal" tack and do without some of the "equipment" that is marketed and be closer to your horse.