Dressage What does a £1.5million dressage 4 year old look like? This!

I am sorry but I am so enjoying this thread. I have no intention of commenting on the horse - my pocket and experience don't qualify me but I share some opinions on here. However I am LOVING the detour into faith and intelligent design. It is the best one for ages. :-) !
 
milliepops said:
I'm puzzled, are you really suggesting the anatomy of the horse was "designed " to carry people around? Because I think you've explained before about using slow and progressive training methods which I had understood to be an acknowledgement of the inherent weakness of the horse's body when it is used for... basically anything except hanging out in a field.[/QUOTE


all my horses are in work, all yours seem to be hanging out in a field with something wrong with them
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HashRouge said:
I don't think this was meant to be funny but I am absolutely howling!!
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I'm sure you are very nice to your horses and treat them very well, but ultimately they aren't designed to be ridden. So if you ride them, you will be doing some harm to them, even if you don't mean to.[/QUOTE]


again would you care to explain how exactly they are being harmed? please
 
tristar said:
all my horses are in work, all yours seem to be hanging out in a field with something wrong with them
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I think you need to take a bit more water with it. MP has a couple of retired old horses, and a broodmare "hanging out in fields".

She also has one that's working towards GP, and an ex racer who is turning into a rather nice little horse. Did you forget about those ones?
 
I'm not sure what's wrong with being old and retired, or being a mum, or 3 months old, even! :p I'm pretty happy for those girls to hang out in the field ;) best place for them :D

I think it was just a sidestep from my question, which was a genuine one. Why go slowly and carefully if it's not about preparing a weak body to do something unnatural? couldn't you just crack right on if the horse is designed to work for humans?
 
milliepops said:
I'm not sure what's wrong with being old and retired, or being a mum, or 3 months old, even! :p I'm pretty happy for those girls to hang out in the field ;) best place for them :D

I think it was just a sidestep from my question, which was a genuine one. Why go slowly and carefully if it's not about preparing a weak body to do something unnatural? couldn't you just crack right on if the horse is designed to work for humans?
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Resorting to personal attacks, when unable to continue to present a compelling argument, I'd say!
 
Well, that escalated quickly ??
I don’t think it's kind to be taking the pi$$ out of someone's faith to be honest. I am not in any way religious I would hasten to add, "the opium of the masses", but people are entitled to believe what they like.
In terms of how that relates to horses, erm, no. Horses were most definitely not designed to be ridden and I very much agree with TPO that we are causing a certain amount of "stress" to our horses when we ride. It's unavoidable and, presumably, why we strive to ride and work our horses in ways that cause the least amount of stress.
As for MP, seriously Tristar, below the belt. MP has some crackers and her horses are a credit to her.

As for the original horse in the post all I keep thinking is...jeeeez 1.5million, how many Clydesdales could I get for that..??? ??
 
I find it hard to believe that this horse can go round like that with minimal work ie. (let's assume) in work for about 12 months in total (backed as a 3yro?), sat on for 20 mins a pop, a few times a week? But then as an amateur, what do I know..!?

What's interesting to me is that presumably the purchasers of this horse have a lot of help behind them. I bet they've had trainers help identify the 'best' horse to buy and I bet it's been vetted within an inch of it's life - and the characteristics it's got are deemed good enough to spend a significant amount of money on. A few posts on here have criticized some of the little things ("it's a bit behind the vertical", "the rider is leaning back", etc.), but at the end of the day, it's 4! And clearly some of the less than perfect things have been deemed not important, and the good things are deemed valuable enough to spend 1.5 mill on!!

If it stays sound (jury's out), I would bet it'll be out competing at int. GP by the age of 9.
 
There is no doubt he is a beautiful horse with fantastic movement I just hope his god is watching over him and will ensure his beauty and talent are fully developed with care and kindness. His price tag is a bit irrelevant as the bulk of people couldn't or wouldn't pay it but I really would love to see him running free playing with others it would be a fantastic sight
 
itroteverywhere said:
I find it hard to believe that this horse can go round like that with minimal work ie. (let's assume) in work for about 12 months in total (backed as a 3yro?), sat on for 20 mins a pop, a few times a week? But then as an amateur, what do I know..!?
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They really can. I worked on a dressage yard in Germany for several years, which also bred/produced youngstock for the very top end of the market. The lift, push, ability to collect and extend, and the way they carry themselves is very natural to this type of horse, and they look far more "produced" than they actually are, because it's just them.

We used to back and ride away the really good ones 2 or 3 months before the big sales, they certainly hadn't had 12 months of work as 3 year olds. They were ridden very well from the outset, so didn't have the added burden of a rider who couldn't ride one side of that much power, and learned to go off a correct aid from the word go.

If you look beyond the movement, this horse isn't doing anything more than walk, trot and canter. Hes just doing it with a lot of added thrust that you wouldn't see from a leisure horse - which is what the majority of us are used to seeing.
 
Auslander said:
If you look beyond the movement, this horse isn't doing anything more than walk, trot and canter. Hes just doing it with a lot of added thrust that you wouldn't see from a leisure horse - which is what the majority of us are used to seeing.
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this. it looks over produced if your eye is used to seeing flat paces of average leisure horses.
some do just come out of the womb with the kind of movement that a less talented horse has to spend years and years developing the strength and understanding to produce.
if the sport rewards the loose thrusting movement then to me it makes sense to use naturally loose thrusting horses! kinda the opposite of what people are saying, its potentially less damaging to use a horse that can ping itself round like that effortlessly, than to have to train hours and hours and hours into a horse that doesn't have that natural ability at its disposal.
 
Wow what an interesting thread ?
I’m just a mere amateur bumbling my way through the dressage levels so not experienced enough really to appreciate horses of this calibre and the advantages and disadvantages of their movement, but what I do think is that us amateurs can totally over estimate the time it takes to train certainly younger horses to a certain level. A pro is not going to take 2 years to get a youngster broken and riding away in front of the leg into the hand, after all it isn’t moving sideways, doing changes or any fancy movements it’s merely working in front of the leg into a contact between hand and leg, a couple of months will get that on a naturally talented horse. My trainer is an ex pro just does some breaking as a hobby now but the ones I’ve seen him do come off the long lines ready to be working from the leg into a nice contact, Some would look at him and think it’s advanced for a horse only broken 4-6 weeks but it’s not really taken much effort at all.
 
milliepops said:
this. it looks over produced if your eye is used to seeing flat paces of average leisure horses.
some do just come out of the womb with the kind of movement that a less talented horse has to spend years and years developing the strength and understanding to produce.
if the sport rewards the loose thrusting movement then to me it makes sense to use naturally loose thrusting horses! kinda the opposite of what people are saying, its potentially less damaging to use a horse that can ping itself round like that effortlessly, than to have to train hours and hours and hours into a horse that doesn't have that natural ability at its disposal.
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Exactly. It's hard to explain - but horses like this just need a little bit of containing. I never really struggled to sit to the big movers, and I am by no means a great rider - educated, but not talented! When you don't have to kick a horse along, or fiddle around getting it off the leg and into the rein, it's actually very easy, as long as you have a strong core, to sit there and enjoy them.
I find Alf a lot harder to ride than a young, bred in the purple warmblood. He's not particularly comfortable, riding his trot is like riding a square wheeled bicycle, and he's a lazy devil. I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the times I've got off him thinking "Wow" - and all those times were after I'd stuffed him with oats, had him short of work, and wound him up something rotten! He needs to be verging on off his rocker to be amazing to ride - whereas it comes as standard with really top class young warmbloods
 
This has been a fascinating thread...! Who knew that intelligent design gave us our wonderful horses ?

I think someone mentioned this article earlier in the thread. I love reading some of the THM articles on breeders, the passion and experience really comes through. It's clear that the Borgmanns really know what they want to produce and have spent decades doing so:
https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2020/08/record-price-at-the-borgmann-online-auction/

I'm off to find the horse that sold for the second highest price now - I bet I can't spot too much difference between a 190,000 euro horse and a 1.65m euro horse! A bit like a £50 wine vs. a £500 wine ;)

ETA: Found it - https://www.hofauktion-borgmann.de/pferde/aringer/
 
I watched (most of) the whole class of Novice Gold at the Winters yesterday - fortunately N37 is a pretty slow test from a writer's POV.
Most of those horses are probably working way above novice by now but "containing" is a perfect description - some were big and elastic natural movers and clearly still growing into their bodies and ability, but the riders did a good job of just getting hold of the 4 corners of the horse and putting them in a balance that let them show themselves off.
 
One of my horse is a extremely big moving with a huge hind-leg action, so I understand how easy a horse like that can make everything. For me though the issues come in when you push a bit quick (because it is so easy) and the stress being that big moving can do. I used to be a gymnast, I also have hEDS, this meant gymnastics was easy for me compared to some others but I broke way sooner. I worry this is the same for horses.
 
Auslander said:
Resorting to personal attacks, when unable to continue to present a compelling argument, I'd say!
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your post is one of the reasons so many people don`t post on here any more,

you can give it , but you can`t take it, you don`t like a taste of your own medicine!
 
oldie48 said:
"all my horses are in work, all yours seem to be hanging out in a field with something wrong with them "

Gosh what a very unkind post!
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if you cant take unkind don`t come on here`

trying to be unkind about our way of doing things, is acceptable then ? its only a reflection
 
j1ffy said:
This has been a fascinating thread...! Who knew that intelligent design gave us our wonderful horses ?

I think someone mentioned this article earlier in the thread. I love reading some of the THM articles on breeders, the passion and experience really comes through. It's clear that the Borgmanns really know what they want to produce and have spent decades doing so:
https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2020/08/record-price-at-the-borgmann-online-auction/

I'm off to find the horse that sold for the second highest price now - I bet I can't spot too much difference between a 190,000 euro horse and a 1.65m euro horse! A bit like a £50 wine vs. a £500 wine ;)

ETA: Found it - https://www.hofauktion-borgmann.de/pferde/aringer/
Click to expand...


Like #2! Sadly searching down the back of the sofa has only come up with 12p so he's also not joining my herd. The slow mo of that extension and the pressure on the joints does show why they can break easily - but then that isn't limited to flash warmbloods as my vet bills this year prove. Really interesting article on the Borgmanns and their breeding strategy - thanks for sharing.

There was a post shared on FB earlier today about the Spanish riding school. I've seen similar articles before where they say although it takes a decade to train up their horses to the top performers they are choosing young stallions who are already showing talent at liberty in their youngstock fields. My eye isn't educated but I guess the Dutch team who forked out €1.6m are seeing the equivalent (another happy hacker who would happily have a go if it was offered up!!!!)
 
shortstuff99 said:
One of my horse is a extremely big moving with a huge hind-leg action, so I understand how easy a horse like that can make everything. For me though the issues come in when you push a bit quick (because it is so easy) and the stress being that big moving can do. I used to be a gymnast, I also have hEDS, this meant gymnastics was easy for me compared to some others but I broke way sooner. I worry this is the same for horses.
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only time will tell, hope the lovely boy comes through
 
j1ffy said:
This has been a fascinating thread...! Who knew that intelligent design gave us our wonderful horses ?

I think someone mentioned this article earlier in the thread. I love reading some of the THM articles on breeders, the passion and experience really comes through. It's clear that the Borgmanns really know what they want to produce and have spent decades doing so:
https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2020/08/record-price-at-the-borgmann-online-auction/

I'm off to find the horse that sold for the second highest price now - I bet I can't spot too much difference between a 190,000 euro horse and a 1.65m euro horse! A bit like a £50 wine vs. a £500 wine ;)

ETA: Found it - https://www.hofauktion-borgmann.de/pferde/aringer/
Click to expand...
Thank you that article is interesting, although I note the controversy about his sire with them stating this

'Interesting that About You was sold to The Netherlands, since he is by the Dutch stallion, Apache (by the Jazz grandson, UB40 out of a Krack C mare). A somewhat temperamental individual, Apache nonetheless competed in the Dutch team at the 2018 WEG with Emmelie Scholtens, and placed 8th at the 2019 World Cup final. He was put down last year after suffering severe laminitis, his later career being somewhat clouded when he proved WFFS positive.'
Which is a risk to take if you were wanting him for a breeding stallion and paid £1.5 mil for. However I do hope we see his full potential as he could be really super.
 
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