Dressage What does a £1.5million dressage 4 year old look like? This!

milliepops said:
I'm not sure i personally am bought into it, I just don't realistically expect anything to change the course that the sport is on.

on an individual level I'd say the opposite is true... I can only rely on my training as I have almost negative levels of horsepower ?

The non-wb champs are a funny no man's land, i am in support of anything that makes the sport more inclusive but there's a fair amount of sniffyness about them from some who consider themselves the higher-ups ?
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But shouldn't your excellent training of a cob be marked the same as someone else's excellent training of a warmblood? Or at least be closer to it? Isn't that what we are told dressage is all about?

I'm sure there is sniffyness, I would be gobsmacked if there wasn't. Very few humans who are in a position of advantage, either carved out through hard work or handed to them on a plate, are minded to give that advantage up in a flood of open-mindedness. It was ever so. But nonetheless, those championships have sprung up for a reason.
 
milliepops said:
I think what I was getting at is that if you were a rich person from a desert type country then you could afford to base yourself somewhere that winter sports were *a thing*.

Bit like some event riders from abroad base themselves here or in other European countries where there's a strong eventing scene.
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I know what you were getting at but that kind of location advantage/ disadvantage wasn't what I was talking about.
 
The discussion didn't start with Olympics though, if the problem is the existence and use of these horses in top sport then is the Olympic argument a red herring? There are other top shows. If you boot equestrianism out of the Olympics there are still other major champs people will go for.
 
DabDab said:
But shouldn't your excellent training of a cob be marked the same as someone else's excellent training of a warmblood? Or at least be closer to it? Isn't that what we are told dressage is all about?

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It is? You are marked against the movements in the test, not the other horses in the class
 
DabDab said:
But shouldn't your excellent training of a cob be marked the same as someone else's excellent training of a warmblood? Or at least be closer to it? Isn't that what we are told dressage is all about?
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Ummm I'm truly not sure on that.
My cobs absolute best extended trot is never ever, regardless of the training I cram in, going to be anything like the quality of a well trained highly athletic wb.
I'm at peace with the inherent unfairness of that.
She can be fairly good but *compared* she's never going to be excellent.
Excellent for her is not the same as objective excellence.
 
TPO said:
It is? You are marked against the movements in the test, not the other horses in the class
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You would think but it often doesn't happen that way. There has been a lot of talk recently of changing the judging to a more gymnastic style judging where there is strict criteria of what 'faults' equals certain point deductions etc to move away from unconscious bias.
 
milliepops said:
The discussion didn't start with Olympics though, if the problem is the existence and use of these horses in top sport then is the Olympic argument a red herring? There are other top shows. If you boot equestrianism out of the Olympics there are still other major champs people will go for.
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I mentioned it because horse sports are already being threatened with being thrown out of the Olympics, and breeding like this will, I think, accelerate it. Which is a shame because it's the only time most people ever see any.
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milliepops said:
Ummm I'm truly not sure on that.
My cobs absolute best extended trot is never ever, regardless of the training I cram in, going to be anything like the quality of a well trained highly athletic wb.
I'm at peace with the inherent unfairness of that.
She can be fairly good but *compared* she's never going to be excellent.
Excellent for her is not the same as objective excellence.
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Why not? If you have trained your cob to do the most excellent extended trot she can do, perfectly on aid, without resistance then why is that not the definition of an excellent dressage movement?

What is objective excellence in modern dressage? The movement of a dressage warmblood. Therefore the movement of that type of horse has become the sport. Which is what I was saying.
 
shortstuff99 said:
You would think but it often doesn't happen that way. There has been a lot of talk recently of changing the judging to a more gymnastic style judging where there is strict criteria of what 'faults' equals certain point deductions etc to move away from unconscious bias.
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I definitely think unconscious bias is a thing and I do understand your point but good judges dont. I appreciate it's not always easy to find good judges but that's why certain people dont ride under certain judges.

Same as the show ring, dog showing, ice skating, gymnastics so on and so forth.

There is definitely some cognitive dissonance on here when some of the stuff posted on here is lauded and encouraged with the obvious ignored but healthy, fit, conditioned, sound, well trained horses (& the breeding operations and riders) get pulled apart.
 
DabDab said:
Well showjumping has always been like that, but then the aim of showjumping has always been to clear the fences, not to demonstrate exemplary training. And eventing still has a really wide range of horses at the top levels, and therefore all through the other levels. Personally I'm not really into the car comparison, and I'm not sure dressage wants to get itself into the same zone as F1, with constantly changing rules specifically to attempt to level the field between the uber uber rich and the just uber rich.
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I love that eventing still has ex racers and sports cobs at the highest levels. It makes it more relatable
 
DabDab said:
Like what TPO? You keep making coded statements about stuff on here being lauded...?
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Not coded, just exactly what I said. Photos/videos of lame horses, horse constantly caught or hauled in the mouth, spurs on very unstable lower legs for starters and they get a lot of positive attention. Then images of good riding and fit for purpose horses seems to open the gates for negative responses.

Certainly the negative part has happened for at least 16yrs in here. There used to be high level experienced dressage riders, jumpers, eventers, trainers, breeders, producers and judges on here, and I know that there still are but just not in the same numbers, who've all given up with here because of it and it's a shame and a real loss. A memorable one was a poster riding at Barbury while the armchair critics (some who had posted not great media) ripped her to shreds.

By all accounts here is a purpose bred horse doing what comes naturally and easy to him and look at the comments? I doubt even the Richy Rich's of this world drop 1.5m on a horse to break it before its first competition. The first hand feedback from someone who's ridden him is positive and look at the storm over this horses welfare? I know I'd far rather be this horse than those in some of the other current threads on here given the choice.
 
ycbm said:
I mentioned it because horse sports are already being threatened with being thrown out of the Olympics, and breeding like this will, I think, accelerate it. Which is a shame because it's the only time most people ever see any.
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I do remember watching Nick Skelton win his individual gold in an almost empty stadium and it really made me wonder whether we can justify keeping equestrian sports in the Olympics when they're so inaccessible (sorry I know this is really a debate for a different thread).
 
Why is a warmblood's extended trot "better" than a cob's? All other things being equal. What if the cob is beautifully trained and correctly 'through' and the warm blood is slightly hollowed, stiff and on the forehand? The warmblood will probably still look more impressive but the cob is better trained, is doing better actual dressage...
 
PapaverFollis said:
Why is a warmblood's extended trot "better" than a cob's? All other things being equal. What if the cob is beautifully trained and correctly 'through' and the warm blood is slightly hollowed, stiff and on the forehand? The warmblood will probably still look more impressive but the cob is better trained, is doing better actual dressage...
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Then in that instance the cob will score higher?

A good judge can see through how something looks to the actual substance and score it against the movement correctly.

Being correct is what gets the marks in dressage. Yes there might be unconscious (or conscious!) bias but there isnt with good judges and that's why they are good judges?
 
I'm not sure they would (score higher). You clearly have faith in dressage judging that I do not share TPO. If it was true that the cob would score higher what's the point of the 1.5 million dollar warmblood?
 
PapaverFollis said:
I'm not sure they would (score higher). You clearly have faith in dressage judging that I do not share TPO. If it was true that the cob would score higher what's the point of the 1.5 million dollar warmblood?
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I wouldnt go that far but then that's why some people dont ride under certain judges. I know the same happens in dog showing so I'd imagine it's a common theme in most competitions of that nature, especially at lower/unaff levels when theres not the same training or standardisation.

It's like saying why isnt that shot putter out there winning marathons. Horses for courses and all that.

Not to say that there arent cobs out there with the physical (& mental) potential to do just that but everything is generally easier with something made for that purpose. As the wise canadian always said dont teach a pig to sing...that doesnt mean there arent world class singing pigs out there but you might annoy a lot of pigs and frustrate yourself more than is necessary
 
But why isn't a cob doing it's best extension the same as a warm blood doing it's best extension. They are both equally well trained and equally physically conditioned in order to achieve their best extension. Why does correct dressage movement = warmblood movement?
 
PapaverFollis said:
But why isn't a cob doing it's best extension the same as a warm blood doing it's best extension. They are both equally well trained and equally physically conditioned in order to achieve their best extension. Why does correct dressage movement = warmblood movement?
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To me it is. If both horses perform the movement absolutely 100% correctly they score the same.

However I'd say that a cob is not bred for advanced dressage moves, despite displaying the moves naturally in the field, and would find it harder than a purpose bred horse. Hence teaching the pig to sing...

If I had a red car designed for the competitive driving I wanted to do on the terrain I wanted to drive on and purpose built to do the maneuvers that I wanted well and I could afford it as well as have the skills to drive it why would I insist on persevering with blue car that wasnt made for my purpose and criticise the competition?

I dont understand the complaint that a cob isnt doing what a 1.5m purpose bred warmblood is? Cobs generally arent show jumping either, nor a warmbloods racing, thoroughbreds reining or Quarter horses eventing...that's not to say that each of those breeds cant do those jobs but if you are aiming for high levels (& you have the means) anyone with half a brain cell would get something for the job they wanted to be doing. Again not saying that horses who arent purpose bred cant do those things but there will be certain things that they will find harder because they arent bred for that exact purpose (& even purpose bred horses dont always live up to their potential)
 
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TPO said:
Not coded, just exactly what I said. Photos/videos of lame horses, horse constantly caught or hauled in the mouth, spurs on very unstable lower legs for starters and they get a lot of positive attention. Then images of good riding and fit for purpose horses seems to open the gates for negative responses.

Certainly the negative part has happened for at least 16yrs in here. There used to be high level experienced dressage riders, jumpers, eventers, trainers, breeders, producers and judges on here, and I know that there still are but just not in the same numbers, who've all given up with here because of it and it's a shame and a real loss. A memorable one was a poster riding at Barbury while the armchair critics (some who had posted not great media) ripped her to shreds.

By all accounts here is a purpose bred horse doing what comes naturally and easy to him and look at the comments? I doubt even the Richy Rich's of this world drop 1.5m on a horse to break it before its first competition. The first hand feedback from someone who's ridden him is positive and look at the storm over this horses welfare? I know I'd far rather be this horse than those in some of the other current threads on here given the choice.
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It is dangerous to post videos of yourself riding online. I wouldn't dare! I can only imagine the responses I'd get ?
 
mule said:
It is dangerous to post videos of yourself riding online. I wouldn't dare! I can only imagine the responses I'd get ?
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Same but that wasnt really my point, also consistent that I dont make my points well!

I am not saying you have to be the best rider in the world to 1) ride 2) post videos.

I am saying that some not great things are posted consistently and the posters are told that they are doing a great job and not to listen to anyone who says otherwise. Sometimes others have pointed it out that it's an accident waiting to happen pr the horse isnt fit for function and when the inevitable does happen it's just bad luck or one of those things.

My attempt at a point is that all those things get let go, and a lot does seem to hinge on the popularity of the poster ad others can be mauled for less, and examples of good riding/training/breeding that I would have thought would be a source of inspiration and motivation are discredited for, amongst other things, being out of reach for the average owner.

There used to be such good discussions on here where people from all walks chewed over things and now they seem to fire off on the strangest of tangents with no substance.

Here's a perfect thread to talk about breeding, training, conditioning and competition and instead we have the "its cruel" and "it'll be knackered by 8" (paraphrasing) posts but no enlightenment in why or what should be done differently in their opinion.

There seems to be a blinkered view between what "we" do and why that's ok compared to professional set ups. I dont know if it's some sort of reverse snobbery?
 
TPO said:
Same but that wasnt really my point, also consistent that I dont make my points well!

I am not saying you have to be the best rider in the world to 1) ride 2) post videos.

I am saying that some not great things are posted consistently and the posters are told that they are doing a great job and not to listen to anyone who says otherwise. Sometimes others have pointed it out that it's an accident waiting to happen pr the horse isnt fit for function and when the inevitable does happen it's just bad luck or one of those things.

My attempt at a point is that all those things get let go, and a lot does seem to hinge on the popularity of the poster ad others can be mauled for less, and examples of good riding/training/breeding that I would have thought would be a source of inspiration and motivation are discredited for, amongst other things, being out of reach for the average owner.

There used to be such good discussions on here where people from all walks chewed over things and now they seem to fire off on the strangest of tangents with no substance.

Here's a perfect thread to talk about breeding, training, conditioning and competition and instead we have the "its cruel" and "it'll be knackered by 8" (paraphrasing) posts but no enlightenment in why or what should be done differently in their opinion.

There seems to be a blinkered view between what "we" do and why that's ok compared to professional set ups. I dont know if it's some sort of reverse snobbery?
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I understand what you mean now. I don't really know. I can only speak for myself of course but i watched the video and thought about how handsome the horse is ?
I didn't really think pay attention to anything else even though the discussion wasn't about the horse being handsome. I was paying more attention to the discussion than the video.

I think, in general, if someone is relatable to you its easier to empathise with them. Perhaps there is an element of that in people's opinions when they post in response to videos.
 
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On the subject of breeding......if we keep breeding horses for certain "x factor" characteristics such as more and more dished faces in Arabs and more extravagant movement in Warmbloods etc then the horse will simply go the way of the pedigree dog. To hell in a handbasket.
Fit for Function is the phrase bandied about in the dog show world but sadly most breeds are no longer suitable for their original purpose, you only need take a brief look at the poor Bulldog to see that. When judges reward the extra flat faces to the extreme in brachycephalic breeds people start breeds for flatter and flatter faces. When a dog is put up with an extra slopy shoulder people start breeding to emulate that. Then you just end up with a genetic and physiological mess which is, invariably, in detriment to the animal.
I personally feel alot of horses are headed this way, and in yhe long run it won't be good.
 
TPO said:
Same but that wasnt really my point, also consistent that I dont make my points well!

I am not saying you have to be the best rider in the world to 1) ride 2) post videos.

I am saying that some not great things are posted consistently and the posters are told that they are doing a great job and not to listen to anyone who says otherwise. Sometimes others have pointed it out that it's an accident waiting to happen pr the horse isnt fit for function and when the inevitable does happen it's just bad luck or one of those things.

My attempt at a point is that all those things get let go, and a lot does seem to hinge on the popularity of the poster ad others can be mauled for less, and examples of good riding/training/breeding that I would have thought would be a source of inspiration and motivation are discredited for, amongst other things, being out of reach for the average owner.

There used to be such good discussions on here where people from all walks chewed over things and now they seem to fire off on the strangest of tangents with no substance.

Here's a perfect thread to talk about breeding, training, conditioning and competition and instead we have the "its cruel" and "it'll be knackered by 8" (paraphrasing) posts but no enlightenment in why or what should be done differently in their opinion.

There seems to be a blinkered view between what "we" do and why that's ok compared to professional set ups. I dont know if it's some sort of reverse snobbery?
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And yet despite the conversation moving on along those lines, you seem determined to drag it back to people's interpretation of lame horses and bad riding. If you want an interesting conversation then have at it, but making long rambling passive aggressive statements taking personal pot shots at people probably isn't going to get you that kind of conversation.

I'm the last person to criticise pros or the way competition horses are kept, and a search of my posting history will quickly tell you that, but I'm also not going to tear down a poster on a video or picture that they post. I haven't particularly read all the comments on this thread because I just kind of scan over the comments on certain lines of discussion because they are not that interesting to me.
 
TPO said:
To me it is. If both horses perform the movement absolutely 100% correctly they score the same.

However I'd say that a cob is not bred for advanced dressage moves, despite displaying the moves naturally in the field, and would find it harder than a purpose bred horse. Hence teaching the pig to sing...

If I had a red car designed for the competitive driving I wanted to do on the terrain I wanted to drive on and purpose built to do the maneuvers that I wanted well and I could afford it as well as have the skills to drive it why would I insist on persevering with blue car that wasnt made for my purpose and criticise the competition?

I dont understand the complaint that a cob isnt doing what a 1.5m purpose bred warmblood is? Cobs generally arent show jumping either, nor a warmbloods racing, thoroughbreds reining or Quarter horses eventing...that's not to say that each of those breeds cant do those jobs but if you are aiming for high levels (& you have the means) anyone with half a brain cell would get something for the job they wanted to be doing. Again not saying that horses who arent purpose bred cant do those things but there will be certain things that they will find harder because they arent bred for that exact purpose (& even purpose bred horses dont always live up to their potential)
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But that's not the original stated 'aim' (for want of a better word) of dressage. Dressage means training, not having a horse that moves in a very particular and increasingly narrowly defined way, which is more akin to a niche type of showing.

Dressage by it's original aim is a very attractive sport to a lot of us, that we would like to participate in and watch. But the elite version of the sport has diverged (is diverging) from that, which I think is a shame. It doesn't mean I think people involved in it are awful, or that the horses aren't beautiful and well cared for, or that people shouldn't be enjoying the sport in that form if that's what floats their boat, I'm just literally expressing my opinion on the sport aspect of it.
 
Warmbloods were not the 'original' dressage horse, in fact the 'original' dressage horses barely get a look in at competitive dressage now. Instead the sport has changed to suit the warmblood as the pinnacle of dressage. It has sort of happened in eventing with the dropping of long format allowing the warmblood a greater influence then a true endurance horse type.

I don't really comment on anyone's riding, more I am disappointed with the direction modern breeding is going.
 
I have always (well for a long time) seen it as rather odd that the modern warmblood dressage horse is a universe away from it's origins - if we accept those origins are the SRS, CN, traditional Iberian horses/training etc. Things change and move on of course but it's not as if those Lippizaners and of course fabulous Iberian horses have vanished. I wonder why that is really - is it because it is somehow much easier to have a modern warmblood to get to that level than the more old fashioned baroque horses who do need years of training and look essentially better designed for long term health and soundness as well as collection ? If extension is the focus of modern dressage then this modern sort of horse would be much better it seems but for collection, to me it seems a more difficult sort of horse...But of course, it's chicken and egg - which came first; the sport generally struggling with collection/training around collected exercises and thus making the most of extension or the horses that drove that?
 
they had a dressage demo here with people riding various levels and Judy Reynolds commenting on them. there was an Irish draught at one of the top levels (can't remember exactly which level) doing foot perfect work with a lovely attitude. the comments from the experts were basically 'happy horse lovely movements, but will get stuck at a level of mark because it doesn't have the wow factor that pushes an 8 to a 9. I thought that was really unfair at the time but could see what they meant when the next springy elastic warmblood bounced in all with flashy movements. the draught was obedient and working hard but you could kind of see the effort going in. the next horse that came in literally bounced in like it was made of springs.
 
DabDab said:
And yet despite the conversation moving on along those lines, you seem determined to drag it back to people's interpretation of lame horses and bad riding. If you want an interesting conversation then have at it, but making long rambling passive aggressive statements taking personal pot shots at people probably isn't going to get you that kind of conversation.

I'm the last person to criticise pros or the way competition horses are kept, and a search of my posting history will quickly tell you that, but I'm also not going to tear down a poster on a video or picture that they post. I haven't particularly read all the comments on this thread because I just kind of scan over the comments on certain lines of discussion because they are not that interesting to me.
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Where is it personal? Who is it directed at? You can check all my previous posts too and I've never replied to any photos or videos with any comments unless there has been a post specifically asking for opinions on how to do X or improve Y.

I dont understand what you are digging at. I too am perfectly capable of not opening threads by posters that I dont like or agree with and can happily scroll past their threads. It's not hard.

I thought this was intended to be a discussion about modern breeding and training yet somehow it's the "cruelty" of purpose breeding horses, which every intentional mating is at every level, and training said horses, how it's not fair of you cant afford a ££££ horse and judges are biased. Some horses naturally have more cadence hence using and breeding those horses but it's not fair that they have a natural advantage over a horse that doesnt? Clearly rational is not on the menu today.
 
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