Dressage What does a £1.5million dressage 4 year old look like? This!

i guess it very much depends on the judge(s) on the day.
I found it interesting on Monday to chat with my judges while writing because they explained a bit about what they were thinking when judging the horses. like one might have a really short neck (overbent or just tight) but it had some other positive quality that was mitigating that issue. the neck isn't the be-all and end all. just an example, i'm not saying you are simplifying that much wheels but often people do just look at btv or Ifv and that's as far as they see. it's a very complex thing to do, weigh up all the zillions of factors and come up with a number in the space of seconds. I find it fascinating to write for very experienced judges.
 
milliepops said:
i guess it very much depends on the judge(s) on the day.
I found it interesting on Monday to chat with my judges while writing because they explained a bit about what they were thinking when judging the horses. like one might have a really short neck (overbent or just tight) but it had some other positive quality that was mitigating that issue. the neck isn't the be-all and end all. just an example, i'm not saying you are simplifying that much wheels but often people do just look at btv or Ifv and that's as far as they see. it's a very complex thing to do, weigh up all the zillions of factors and come up with a number in the space of seconds. I find it fascinating to write for very experienced judges.
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yes, the btv I was using an example because it is one of the most common things and one of the easiest to see! If the horse is BTV then that is generally not the only issue, they are also on the forehand and they will also not have the poll the highest point so even that 1 thing is already 3 things!
 
LEC said:
And that is called classical dressage. You can take the purist approach and train for fun. Modern dressage is an Olympic sport with millions and millions of pounds awash in the system. If you look at any judged sport the complexity and the wow factor has gone up. What humans are capable of now in gymnastics now is very different to the 1970s. Same in Ice Dance. You cannot take out the need for wow factor. Its why the Iberian horses don't win medals.
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true to some extent for me, however after watching fuego the others were like watching paint dry, and following one was totilas
 
Wheels said:
yes, the btv I was using an example because it is one of the most common things and one of the easiest to see! If the horse is BTV then that is generally not the only issue, they are also on the forehand and they will also not have the poll the highest point so even that 1 thing is already 3 things!
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it is, but it might also be doing an otherwise correct movement that has a load of other requirements that go to form the 6 or 7.... and it might also be only affecting some movements. so it's not automatically insufficient (and the level of the test is also relevant to how much of an issue each fault might be). I watched those stephen Clarke judging dvds again recently and it reminded me of how many things go into forming the scores in those little boxes.
 
tristar said:
true to some extent for me, however after watching fuego the others were like watching paint dry, and following one was totilas
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That’s the thing about dressage.
There is the technical aspect, the FEI directives and the parts that make it ‘sport’ but there is also that element of art that comes into it. Have you ever heard art critics ?

Anyway, I can completely understand how elite dressage can divide opinion.

I personally can’t stand dog showing, but I don’t go onto dog forums and engage in showing threads because, well, it’s not my bag so why waste my time?!
 
shortstuff99 said:
But yet they do breed from them, there are plenty of pretty famous stallions whose career could not stand up to the GP work, Vivaldi for example or Jazz. Or (a mare) Farouche who also couldn't but is now breeding. The flash was worth it there.
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I think you might need to take Jazz out of this, as he is in the pedigree of multiple GP horses, he is a very clear producer of the GP, even if he wasnt the greatest himself.

But as someone else said, breeding falls into two very clear markets, YH and GP, and I'd imagine for a breeder the YH market is much more profitable.
 
Horses have been bred for certain characteristics for eons, the ethics of that are a different argument. Top flight dressage is a different world, but for me the point is that I can aim to emulate a tiny bit of it. However woeful that effort might be.

To witness any horse working correctly and happily is beautiful.
 
daffy44 said:
I think you might need to take Jazz out of this, as he is in the pedigree of multiple GP horses, he is a very clear producer of the GP, even if he wasnt the greatest himself.

But as someone else said, breeding falls into two very clear markets, YH and GP, and I'd imagine for a breeder the YH market is much more profitable.
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Yes, I totally get why the do it, breeding is a pretty hard way to make a living and the quicker you turn it round the better. The YH market is the easiest way to make money, I'm just not 100% how I feel about it!
 
shortstuff99 said:
But yet they do breed from them, there are plenty of pretty famous stallions whose career could not stand up to the GP work, Vivaldi for example or Jazz. Or (a mare) Farouche who also couldn't but is now breeding. The flash was worth it there.
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when i`ve lived abroad full time, i had the time to notice how some of the euro breeds changed enormously over 20 ish years in type, and racehorses look to have improved in looks confo and presentation, advent of sea the stars, who i have seen in the flesh at the aga khans stud, in ireland, not just on the tele the landmark for me

last time i looked in haras dèlle`s yearling paddocks the yearlings where considerably finer and more blood like and without the large feet

breeding for sport is by nature an evolution, the approval of the continental stud book stallions for use in many other stud books brings the inevitable changes

racing showjumping and eventing are true sports, i don`t know how to define dressage comps
 
daffy44 said:
I think you might need to take Jazz out of this, as he is in the pedigree of multiple GP horses, he is a very clear producer of the GP, even if he wasnt the greatest himself.

But as someone else said, breeding falls into two very clear markets, YH and GP, and I'd imagine for a breeder the YH market is much more profitable.
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It has a much quicker result as well as profit. Your breeding stallion would only have to wait 3 years for youngstock results. Maximum of 6 years for YH championship results (if really that good). Plus its a lot less of a financial commitment to get your 3yo offspring into the right hands as only would need a few months under saddle. To have a horse for GP is 8 years minumum and then it needs to have the right atributes, right jockey and stay sound. Realistically there is no money in GP when you look at time/effort vs financial £££. Much better to aim at flash and YH and maybe maybe get one who does come out at GP.

We don't seem to have this mentality in UK so much. There is very much a focus on GP as the ultimate. I would say very much the Carl/Charlotte influence as they are all about GP and the fact there is not the YH extravaganzas so no money in it. We don't have the whole hype/money around breeding shows, stallion gradings and auctions.
 
shortstuff99 said:
Yes, I totally get why the do it, breeding is a pretty hard way to make a living and the quicker you turn it round the better. The YH market is the easiest way to make money, I'm just not 100% how I feel about it!
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I hate it, but appreciate the financial side of it, the idea of breeding a horse to be a YH star and not much else goes against everything I believe, I love the training, the journey, so its not for me, but I'm not a breeder, and I dont need to make my living this way.
 
LEC said:
It has a much quicker result as well as profit. Your breeding stallion would only have to wait 3 years for youngstock results. Maximum of 6 years for YH championship results (if really that good). Plus its a lot less of a financial commitment to get your 3yo offspring into the right hands as only would need a few months under saddle. To have a horse for GP is 8 years minumum and then it needs to have the right atributes, right jockey and stay sound. Realistically there is no money in GP when you look at time/effort vs financial £££. Much better to aim at flash and YH and maybe maybe get one who does come out at GP.

We don't seem to have this mentality in UK so much. There is very much a focus on GP as the ultimate. I would say very much the Carl/Charlotte influence as they are all about GP and the fact there is not the YH extravaganzas so no money in it. We don't have the whole hype/money around breeding shows, stallion gradings and auctions.
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Totally agree.
 
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shortstuff99 said:
But yet they do breed from them, there are plenty of pretty famous stallions whose career could not stand up to the GP work, Vivaldi for example or Jazz. Or (a mare) Farouche who also couldn't but is now breeding. The flash was worth it there.
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Well Jazz was 17, I believe and had been competing at GP for several years before sustaining an injury, Farouche was 10 and competing at small tour when she sustained a strained fetlock injury which ended her career and tbh I don't know much about Vivaldi except his progeny have been doing rather well. Whether their injuries were as a result of "not being able to cope with GP work" is something that does not seem to be in the public domain. Interestingly I think we do jump to the conclusion that horses like these sustain injury because of who they are and what they do rather than it just being very bad luck. It must have been gutting for Michael Eilberg to have to retire Farouche but apparently embryo transfer was problematic when she was in work so at least there was a silver lining.
 
oldie48 said:
Well Jazz was 17, I believe and had been competing at GP for several years before sustaining an injury, Farouche was 10 and competing at small tour when she sustained a strained fetlock injury which ended her career and tbh I don't know much about Vivaldi except his progeny have been doing rather well. Whether their injuries were as a result of "not being able to cope with GP work" is something that does not seem to be in the public domain. Interestingly I think we do jump to the conclusion that horses like these sustain injury because of who they are and what they do rather than it just being very bad luck. It must have been gutting for Michael Eilberg to have to retire Farouche but apparently embryo transfer was problematic when she was in work so at least there was a silver lining.
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I don't doubt that they tried their best and were gutted, but I'm still not 100% sure why you would choose to breed from injured horses (injury dependent) personally. I don't want to get too into Vivaldi as I think his training may have contributed (EG rode him and his methods are not my favourite). Jazzz was an issue for me as his temperament was problematic and so are a lot of his progeny but he makes flashy movers.

Eurodressage do a lot of very interesting articles on the young horse winners and where are they now and very few become the GP horses.
 
I think one thing it shows is how well us amateurs do with our bum high stiff backed slightly randomly bred horses! I’ve just got my first purpose dressage bred horse (sort of- German bred to be a dressage pony), from totally the other end of the market to this, but the differences even between her and a SJ bred horse in terms of natural ‘sit’ and natural back movement is unbelievable. The SJ bred WBs I’ve had have cadence to the movement and great walks but its like apples and pears. And that’s at the bottom of the market not even mid market! It’s a stunning 4yo and I don’t know much more than that to comment. That end of the market is so foreign to me it’s like when I go to tattersalls and like the 10k yearling over the 150k one. I literally don’t know what I’m looking at or the bloodlines well enough to judge!
 
shortstuff99 said:
I don't doubt that they tried their best and were gutted, but I'm still not 100% sure why you would choose to breed from injured horses (injury dependent) personally. I don't want to get too into Vivaldi as I think his training may have contributed (EG rode him and his methods are not my favourite). Jazzz was an issue for me as his temperament was problematic and so are a lot of his progeny but he makes flashy movers.

Eurodressage do a lot of very interesting articles on the young horse winners and where are they now and very few become the GP horses.
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Totally agree on Jazz's temperament, not a stallion for an amateur's horse but this is true of many top class horses. it would appear he was pretty sound overall though. I agree it depends on how an injury has been sustained as to whether a horse should be used for breeding, just wish more owners of lame mares considered this! I had an interesting conversation with my farrier yesterday about pasterns and how they affect soundness. He prefers slightly longer pasterns as he feels that are better at shock absorbing and result in fewer issues in the feet, rather anti Spanish horses for this reason. there's so many things that affect soundness in addition to work load and basic conformation
 
ihatework said:
That’s the thing about dressage.
There is the technical aspect, the FEI directives and the parts that make it ‘sport’ but there is also that element of art that comes into it. Have you ever heard art critics ?

Anyway, I can completely understand how elite dressage can divide opinion.

I personally can’t stand dog showing, but I don’t go onto dog forums and engage in showing threads because, well, it’s not my bag so why waste my time?!
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Yep, totally agree. And for me I think it is perfectly possible to love grass roots dressage but simultaneously feel like it is completely detached from the the elite version of the sport. It just feels increasingly like it is two different disciplines clinging awkwardly together. And on a soundness-front, while I am pretty unconcerned about elite horses, completely bred for the job, I am much more concerned about 'ordinary' horses who's riders spend a lot of time and training effort trying to make them move like warmbloods (because that is seen as the goal).

Lately I've just been wondering if it would be better to split dressage into the two disciplines it already feels like it is, giving a sport with the current emphasis in the directives, and another with a different emphasis, I'm not sure if it could be done practically, just thinking out loud.
 
well that would really test the soundness of the hindlegs ;)

it's my understanding that it's mainly specialist horses that train towards the airs above ground even in places like SRS. I'm not sure I'd personally be up for adding in that degree of effort in a normal competition environment. firstly it would make the sport even more elitist in terms of "equipment" because fewer horses again could really develop the strength and ability to do it. and secondly i think a lot more horses would break in the process.

I have a horse that will often levade as a progression from piaffe work (not on demand, just cos she gets over ambitious) :p
 
Lovely yes! As an aside I could have done without the corny music in the selling video........ but that's just me being a grouch!

Gorgeous horse and obviously someone somewhere was prepared to pay the asking price.

But at the end of the day he is still a youngster.............

Show me this vid when he's had the chance to mature a bit and be a youngster and chill out a bit and I might be impressed.

But sorry, for me this is too much way too soon.
 
milliepops said:
well that would really test the soundness of the hindlegs ;)

it's my understanding that it's mainly specialist horses that train towards the airs above ground even in places like SRS. I'm not sure I'd personally be up for adding in that degree of effort in a normal competition environment. firstly it would make the sport even more elitist in terms of "equipment" because fewer horses again could really develop the strength and ability to do it. and secondly i think a lot more horses would break in the process.

I have a horse that will often levade as a progression from piaffe work (not on demand, just cos she gets over ambitious) :p
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guess again it boils down to whether you are OK with the idea of competitive dressage (more or less accessible) or whether you think that's a heresy and prefer to just do the classical work for itself.
 
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It would test collection (the ultimate goal, surely?) and would be very difficult to fake. Unlike piaffe which seems to get good marks even when the weight is entirely on the forehand. If the right rider is on top.

Why does adding levade at the very top of the sport make it less accessible? And only being able to win on very expensive warmbloods thar can produce the wow factor extensions doesn't?
 
This thread has been an interesting read. I love hearing the different opinions.
From my point of view, I’m far more comfortable watching the horses bred for the job, doing it with ease, than what I witness from some amateurs, whos horses may be working at advanced levels but look stilted and uncomfortable doing it, and the rider looking like they are having to pretty much hold them together. It doesn’t make for a pleasing picture from where I stand.

I have a distinctly average small horse who happily works at novice- ele at home, can also do a bit of half pass and travers (with absolutely no flourish, I must add) and is collecting in canter enough that I know piris wouldn’t be a million miles away if I wanted them. I’ve watched her passage her way around the field, but she is not built for that sort of work with a rider on board and I feel that even if I did achieve it, it wouldn’t be coming from a place of ease. Or she would eventually break.
 
PapaverFollis said:
Why does adding levade at the very top of the sport make it less accessible? And only being able to win on very expensive warmbloods thar can produce the wow factor extensions doesn't?
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there are lots of slightly contradictory arguments on this thread so what I was referring to was the suggestion that breeding should be scaled back to make more normal horses because the current horsepower requirements make dressage too elitist to be an olympic sport.

if we all have ordinary horses, even fewer people will have one of the animals capable of an even harder movement.
 
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