Mule
Well-Known Member
It is completely unnecessary, everyone is trying their best, why drag someone down. Theres no need for it.
Dressage What does a £1.5million dressage 4 year old look like? This!
- Thread starter shortstuff99
- Start date
ester
Not slacking multitasking
dressagehub has a reputation 
The bendy thing I think is pretty complicated, there's a few genetic variants of EDS now but not all testable still I don't think?
I do know bendy people who have no issues at all as a result. Whereas I am only bendy in certain places and have no end of trouble as a result.
The bendy thing I think is pretty complicated, there's a few genetic variants of EDS now but not all testable still I don't think?
I do know bendy people who have no issues at all as a result. Whereas I am only bendy in certain places and have no end of trouble as a result.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
He’s a beautiful horse much nicer than Farouche , who however lovely she was was over topped for her limbs IMO
its the half steps he’s doing not passage I do that with all my horses early in training although it has to be admitted not as well as that horse ?
I wish that horse a long and happy life with people who love him for himself , and most of all I wish him a groom who loves him through out his life .
its the half steps he’s doing not passage I do that with all my horses early in training although it has to be admitted not as well as that horse ?
I wish that horse a long and happy life with people who love him for himself , and most of all I wish him a groom who loves him through out his life .
BBP
Well-Known Member
This is a good example of hypermobility. Extreme hyper extension of the fetlock. You may expect to see this level of drop at a gallop or when jumping, but this is a slow canter with no degree of collection asked for. If this horse were to gallop or jump there is no greater degree of support that the hind suspensory can provide to the joint. Both hypermobility and DSLD are systemic, present throughout the body, it’s just that the suspensory provides an easy to see marker if you are looking. (I’ve learned a lot in a few weeks!). If you look up Glocks Zonik, that’s an example of a horse working at Grand Prix with extreme hyper extension of the front fetlocks.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
agree but dont forget part of the mark will include paces so even if both perform the movement correctly, the better moving horse will get a slightly better mark, but quite often the flashier horse can make mistakes so if the cob continues to do a correct test he could beat the flashy one. my friend trained an ordinary horse to GP and he was not a flashy mover but she was a good accurate test rider and rarely made mistakes and regularly beat some of the well known riders who were on much better horses..
McFluff
Well-Known Member
Well I liked the original horse and rider. I couldn’t ride (or afford!) that horse, and would love to have a fraction of the skill of the rider.
Some really interesting debate. Particularly around sport. My job involves top level sport, and in my experience top sport is not, and never will be, fair. The vast majority of us would never reach there even with ££££ behind us. There is a lot of selection and subjective decisions to determine who is invested in. And even when people are spotted at an early age for their conformation and/or talent, the failure rate is high.
Ironically I take part in dressage because I ( with my less than ideal conformation) and my not bred for dressage horse can take part. We can train, and be inspired by the best. In theory, I could reach the top level, just not competitively. I can’t think of another sport where that is the case to quite the same extent (climbing maybe). I love the training and actually don’t care if someone does better than me. I know that they will have worked hard to earn that, even if they have a ‘better’ horse, they still have to ride it well to do well. I’m just pleased if we do well, for us, and if my horse is happy and willing in his work.
Some really interesting debate. Particularly around sport. My job involves top level sport, and in my experience top sport is not, and never will be, fair. The vast majority of us would never reach there even with ££££ behind us. There is a lot of selection and subjective decisions to determine who is invested in. And even when people are spotted at an early age for their conformation and/or talent, the failure rate is high.
Ironically I take part in dressage because I ( with my less than ideal conformation) and my not bred for dressage horse can take part. We can train, and be inspired by the best. In theory, I could reach the top level, just not competitively. I can’t think of another sport where that is the case to quite the same extent (climbing maybe). I love the training and actually don’t care if someone does better than me. I know that they will have worked hard to earn that, even if they have a ‘better’ horse, they still have to ride it well to do well. I’m just pleased if we do well, for us, and if my horse is happy and willing in his work.
paddi22
Well-Known Member
yeah one of the things that made me stop doing affiliated dressage was seeing how a top rider and horse won a national championship class here, despite the horse spooking for half the test and not going down one end of the arena. it was a horrible test to watch and one of those tests where you are just waiting for the horse to kick off and spook again. I was amazed to see the rider had scored more than riders who had done lovely tests before them on other high-level horses. My trainer understood it by saying the horse scored amazing marks for the parts of the test it DID do. I just thought it was totally bullshit, because as far as I would consider it the horse didn't go in and do it's job properly or in any way harmoniously.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I was thinking about this last night and this ^ is a key part of the debate to me.
say it was somehow possible to strip out the "horse quality" part from the judging of dressage training competitions.
I'd bet the top flight would be made up of mainly the same riders that are dominating the sport now. Because it's not just the fact that they have access to amazing horses that puts them up there. it's also a huge amount of skill, hard work, practice, attention to detail and talent. they would use those same attributes on any horse.
I know as an amateur with plenty of limitations I try bloody hard to develop my skills and practice well etc... but it would be pretty short sighted to think I could rival any of the top riders in those aspects
I sort of fail to see what the difference would be in a hypothetical new sport.oldie48
Well-Known Member
This mirrors exactly how I feel. Years ago when I first started riding I had a little TB who tbh was a doddle to ride in a test. He didn't have the biggest paces but happily flicked his toes, could do a pretend med trot (all front legs no backend) and was very obedient. I used to do quite well on him UA and I knew no better. As I've had the opportunity to ride "better" moving horses, capable of getting higher marks, I've actually done less well because they need heaps better riding. I've been in a constant cycle of having to up my game which I find is the thing that really keeps me hooked. Clearly I am not a talented rider but to be involved in a sport, at whatever level, where an oldie like me can take part along side much younger , much more talented people is really special and I don't care if I win provided I feel I am improving.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
The only reason I would be interested in it would be that it would stop the march towards elite dressage becoming a circus show of freaky animals bearing little relation to horses ordinary people ride.
There's only a small market for race horses which don't make the grade because so many of them can't be ridden by ordinary riders. The rest that don't breed and don't have caring owners are shot. Warmblood breeding feels to me as if it's moving in exactly the same direction.
.
tristar
Well-Known Member
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I understand that but as so far nobody has been able to give any suggestions about how you can objectively just score training in a sport where something can always be more supple, more expressive, more elastic... I still can't wrap my head around the concept in any meaningful way! it's nice to talk about but it's kind of a nonsense unless someone has a vision of how it could realistically be achieved.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I absolutely love your attitude, and wish this was more prevalent in the sport.
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
It's a judged sport. The criteria for assigning marks are arbitrary and can be changed. Like a conformation breed standard for a dog show... none of those breed standards should end up with exaggerated animals. But they do because the human judgement placed on top pushes it that way. But the human judgement can be more conscious of what it is doing and rewarding. Change the mental blue print of good movement automatically meaning "moves like a warmblood"...
Supple is good. Doesn't mean the most supple is the best. There's a point were supple becomes lax.
I do think, looking at this guy compared to Totilas say, that there has been a shift in the right direction.
I don't know. I have no skin in the game at all. I fall apart competing so it's always just going to me at home using dressage as an antidote to the potential harm caused by riding. Rather than dressage being an end in itself. ?
doesn't mean I can't have an opinion and I don't think it's an outrageous one.
Supple is good. Doesn't mean the most supple is the best. There's a point were supple becomes lax.
I do think, looking at this guy compared to Totilas say, that there has been a shift in the right direction.
I don't know. I have no skin in the game at all. I fall apart competing so it's always just going to me at home using dressage as an antidote to the potential harm caused by riding. Rather than dressage being an end in itself. ?
doesn't mean I can't have an opinion and I don't think it's an outrageous one.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I have no vision, sorry, but I accept that modern dressage has become something more like a sort of athletic beauty contest (or niche showing, as someone else described it) in which the way of performing or moving, the expression, has become as important, or even more so, than the technique. This is not just down to the innate ability of the horse let us not forget, it also requires exceptional skill and talent from the rider, beyond what "normal" riders are capable of or prepared to do. That's what makes it an "elite" sport I suppose.....
Cortez
Tough but Fair
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
That's what I mean? This one looks better. ?
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Sorry, missed your gist there.....
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
It's a judged sport. The criteria for assigning marks are arbitrary and can be changed. Like a conformation breed standard for a dog show... none of those breed standards should end up with exaggerated animals. But they do because the human judgement placed on top pushes it that way. But the human judgement can be more conscious of what it is doing and rewarding. Change the mental blue print of good movement automatically meaning "moves like a warmblood"...
Supple is good. Doesn't mean the most supple is the best. There's a point were supple becomes lax.
I do think, looking at this guy compared to Totilas say, that there has been a shift in the right direction.
I don't know. I have no skin in the game at all. I fall apart competing so it's always just going to me at home using dressage as an antidote to the potential harm caused by riding. Rather than dressage being an end in itself. ?
i don't think its an outrageous one and I'm sort of unsure why you seem to be on the defensive, but I find it hard to see how what people are arguing for would ever work, without some sort of examples of HOW it could be achieved. otherwise it's a bit like me saying I just want everyone to have enough money but without coming up with a way to make that happen (I don't think a standpoint like that would last long in the club house
) I take issue with the idea that a horse can be too supple and is therefore somehow over-rewarded for it - if laxness was an issue then that would present itself in other ways that would hold the mark down - a loss of rhythm, or badly controlled shapes, or a loss of balance etc. everything has to work together for an excellent score. but to take out the qualitative factor of suppleness, which by its nature is open ended, makes it impossible to compare one half pass or one circle with another? if you just said well the horse half passed, sort of - give it an 8, that makes the sport a complete mickey mouse operation IMO
Regandal
Well-Known Member
They could maybe adopt some hi-tech stuff? You know, put electronic ‘markers’ on the horse and then film them, like those lameness test things. Shouldn’t be too hard to work out the optimum range and correct movement for any given conformation......!
Take the human eye/bias out of it.
Take the human eye/bias out of it.
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
I'm defensive because I hate arguing on the Internet, have been drawn into it cos I'm an idiot. I'm breaking my golden rule and it's stressing me out. ? I'm just rubbish at writing what I actually mean then end up arguing stuff I don't really mean because what I've written has been read in a way I didn't mean.
I've not even criticised the original horse or rider particularly.
I just don't think it can be simultaneously true that a cob is being marked fairly for it's work AND that warmbloods are "the F1 cars of dressage". Either dressage is dressage or dressage is being the best warmblood. If that can't be made to work in practical dressage competition then so be it.
I think there's a chicken and egg situation where modern dressage and the modern warmblood are evolving together, each making the other slightly more extreme. And personally don't think that that is good for horses or horsemanship. Overall. I'm sure that horse care/treatment etc are the same mixed bag all through the levels of equestrianism because people are people. Some are nice. Some are awful.
But judging by the fact this horse actually moves it's legs as pairs and has a pelvic tuck and some "sit" to it then there is at least a back swing away from really ridiculous spider legs and no substance going on. So that's good.
I've not even criticised the original horse or rider particularly.
I just don't think it can be simultaneously true that a cob is being marked fairly for it's work AND that warmbloods are "the F1 cars of dressage". Either dressage is dressage or dressage is being the best warmblood. If that can't be made to work in practical dressage competition then so be it.
I think there's a chicken and egg situation where modern dressage and the modern warmblood are evolving together, each making the other slightly more extreme. And personally don't think that that is good for horses or horsemanship. Overall. I'm sure that horse care/treatment etc are the same mixed bag all through the levels of equestrianism because people are people. Some are nice. Some are awful.
But judging by the fact this horse actually moves it's legs as pairs and has a pelvic tuck and some "sit" to it then there is at least a back swing away from really ridiculous spider legs and no substance going on. So that's good.
paddi22
Well-Known Member
probably not an apt comparison but would there be some similarity to singing? like I could study a song, prepare my vocal cords as best I could, technically hit each note, have the right pitch & tempo, inject emotion and performance, but I can guarantee if someone like Ariana Grande or Whitney Houston came in with their nature range and ability, it doesn't matter how hard I tried or how much I perfected my own ability, they would still wipe the floor with me in a singing contest. they would just have more natural ability and a better looking overall package and performance, even if technically I did nothing wrong.
tristar
Well-Known Member
Fellewell
Well-Known Member
It's a good comparison and you might be the next Tom Waits, Leonard Cohen or Joe Cocker.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Classical Riding Club tests do a pretty good job, if they're still used.
But singing has never had rules laid down saying it's the ultimate test of training for the horse, which is what dressage always was. I think it still says that in the FEI rules, but other bits have been shifted to allow more and more submission/athleticism to outdo correct training. The change to allowing the head to come to the vertical in piaffe, it used to be that all paces should be ridden in front of the vertical, not that it is seen often in any test even though all other paces, at all levels should be ridden iftv.
Wheels
Well-Known Member
Maybe, if you had been bred solely with that in mind!
Fellewell
Well-Known Member
Maybe it really is a question of one man's meat so to speak.
A judge in one part of the arena may award a wildly differing mark to another, apparently watching the same horse. Is this human error or simply a matter of preference? How often do you see a combination not get the mark they deserve?
If judges reward style over substance then that is what people will bring to the arena.
A judge in one part of the arena may award a wildly differing mark to another, apparently watching the same horse. Is this human error or simply a matter of preference? How often do you see a combination not get the mark they deserve?
If judges reward style over substance then that is what people will bring to the arena.
oldie48
Well-Known Member
Nope, judges at different places see different things eg a judge at C will see if a halt is square at the front, on the centre line but won't see if the back legs are under and square or not, whereas a judge on the long side will see this but won't know if the horse is on the centre line and straight.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
^ this
I sat with 2 different judges at E on Monday and they pointed out what they could see that the M or C judge wouldn't be able to catch.
do people have examples of where style over substance is being rewarded or is it just a hunch? I'm interested because often people complain about stuff with dressage *in general* but when you break down where the marks can be gained it's more complex than whatever hang up each individual person might have. you can end up with a result that is not what you expected because of the way the numbers work, coefficients for example.
eta to add to this, in case people think I'm 100% behind the status quo and can see no wrong, which seems to be what comes across to the folk on the other side of the fence
I'd take Adelinde/Parzival as a combination I often did not enjoy watching. But she could ride a correct test, and delivering the movements correctly delivers a big dump of the marks. I've just looked at his FEI results and the straight test GP was typically a mid 70s score. which translates to between fairly good and good. Not excellent, not even very good. they happened to be at the top of the pile sometimes but that placing is only dependent on who turns up on the day and not really a reflection of their performance objectively. (see related debate on the thread about non-tb racehorses and the coloured horse that placed 3rd by default - but was still "placed")
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HufflyPuffly
Well-Known Member
All of this is very true, I was lucky enough to be a scorer at Bolesworth International a few years back. Charlotte won a class on a horse who made some pretty big mistakes, would have been super easy to say oh it's just because it's her, it's just because the horse can move for a 10, etc. However, I got to see the individual marks for each movement and the mistakes were marked accordingly by each of the judges (think sub 5's for the iffy bits), the rest of the test pulled the mark up enough to win, as although her marks ranged from say 2-10's other people made less obvious mistakes but more of them (say their marks were therefore in the 6-8's range) to bring the whole test down more than the handful of big ones Charlotte made.