What is you definition of an indiscriminate breeding?

Delicious_D said:
The KS were ruled it as an issue as we focus on the pelvis he had no pain response in the back. Suspensories were just normal wear and tear and she has no more heat spots. After that report I got a second opinion. Delicia is healed and sound. :)
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So, all of a sudden the mare doesn't have KS :confused: The hind suspensory problem may well be just wear and tear, but putting her in foal will add to that ten fold, and... the SI problems?
Sorry, I just cant see how from that vets report the mare is suddenly fit as a fiddle and ready to have a foal. If that really is the case, I'd be wanting your original vet struck off :o

It doesn't take away from what a lovely mare she is, but as I've said to you all along, if she were mine, she wouldn't be going anywhere near a stallion.
 
Can I just ask, if Dee is healed and sound - why are you putting into foal rather than riding her? I don't follow your threads massively, but I thought she had big problems and then was coming right before lameness etc.
 
Because I have my own issues with my back. With work busy as hell and my own back giving me issues I've given myself time off.

Since the original vet I've had two other vets look and they agree it isn't anywhere near as bad as first reported... The SI issue was a ligament apparently. I can only call it as I see it. Dee's never looked better and never moved better. :)
 
Delicious_D said:
Because I have my own issues with my back. With work busy as hell and my own back giving me issues I've given myself time off.

Since the original vet I've had two other vets look and they agree it isn't anywhere near as bad as first reported... The SI issue was a ligament apparently. I can only call it as I see it. Dee's never looked better and never moved better. :)
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I find that really hard to believe, sorry :o

Anyway, good luck with getting your mare in foal.
 
springtime13 said:
Personally, I feel you should only breed the best with the best. So, unless a mare and stallion are proven (meaning in my opinion that they have won at a national level or above - not a few rosettes at local dressage/shows) and perfect (no physical or mental issues at all).

I don't agree, many people want a 'happy hacker' or an animal they can have fun with at riding club or taking part at small local shows and these don't need to be bred from horses winning at national level or above. Using only horses of this standard could possibly put the price of horses out of reach of the average 'horsey' family. Many excellent riding ponies have been bred with neither parent being known as many people will see on the passports. It is a problem when 'breeders' keep producing horses and ponies that have no future other than the meat market.
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ester said:
I don't want a 'competition horse' that wasn't good enough to make the grade, I'd want a nice part-bred that could maybe jump a meter, nanny me round a BE90, look after me on the hunt field, be sensible on the hills/beach and ignore my mad moments when I have a desperation to play gymkhana games again ;) :) - as do a lot of your average joes-- well maybe not the games bit :p

I agree DD that both parents should then be of a reasonable quality but suspect temperament then has to preside over actual ability! :D

and no.. there really aren't that many of them out there to do the above... at various times over the years I've looked :D.
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Just a thought but given the cost of breeding quality (must be £2000 ish - vets, stud etc.) and then waiting 3/4 years (inc livery - so another £15,000 over that time ) then breaking etc. surely you could reschool something in that time with that cash?

My boy is a 'failed' competition horse he competed eventing 4* (badly, but nicely 3*), so I assume he must have been sharp/ reponsive at some point. It took a relatively basic 12 months reschooling (I'm no expert by any means, just no crazy feed and patients) and now he's the perfect allrounder, nice novice dressage, happy to go in a group to the beach, happy on hound exercise etc. XC when I have my brave pants on !! - the odd moment to check I'm still paying attention (his character rather than his past I think)

He's an irish mutt of no known breeding
 
I think it is perfectly reasonable to breed from a much loved mare if you intend to give the foal a home for life, even if that mare is unproven competitively, and has less than perfect conformation. However, IMO it is not acceptable to breed from such a mare with the intention of selling the foal.
 
With all due respect ladylala, you also didn't believe I owned dee from a 3 year old. Sorry you feel im putting my mare at risk but that just shows how little you know about me really. I have had several vets, physios, chiropractors farrier etc look at her. All agree now. At the end of the day what I choose to do with my mar eis my choice. Everything is a risk. Foaling down risks any mare just as any pregnancy is a risk. But if people didn't take risks you wouldn't have the horses you own and call your own.

Thanks for the good luck wishes. But please, dont worry about dee. She's my pride and joy :)
 
Wagtail I agree, bred mine 20 years ago from a mare that had done well locally and was a delightful little horse, the filly didn't turn out as expected, only reached 14.2hh but I have kept her and she will stay with me until the day she dies, now rising 20 had major health issues and has been 'retired' since the age of 6. I chose to have her and she will always be my responsibility through sickness and through health, mostly sickness:( Never mind she is happy and healthy now.
 
Here's a thought instead of attacking one person. Do some hunting and research. See how many big studs breed from OCD horses. How many breed from mares that in fact have done nothing. And maybe in the 3rd dam they have decent progeny. Big breeders will insist OCD isn't hereditary and that it's all due to management. BS. While I have no scientific proof I can tell you certain stallion lines, and through their mares, had a much higher incident of OCD than others. This was all in racing because I got on a lot of similar lines. They weren't all raised the same way. I used to get on a mare that couldn't even get up to a breeze she was so crippled. They paid 3.2million for her. She was bred and has produced black type winners as well as some not so great ones that I'm sure were also bred.

The types of breedings we are talking about here didn't create the massive surplus in horses. But because you can't go after them you attack here. Oh wait a minute, maybe we should all rally around those people and start fund raising for them. Talk about how hard done by they are. Blame the RSPCA for a witch hunt. People buying the sad cases because they deserve a chance at life keep idiots like you find on DD and the other irresponsible breeders in business. I work hard for my money and I'm not going to have a barn full of no pedigree badly put together horses because other people don't think before they breed. Maybe that's harsh but do something about those people. If the surplus of horses really gets to you then get something done about those people. Coming here and ripping apart one person for breeding her one mare isn't a solution.

Terri
 
Delicious_D said:
With all due respect ladylala, you also didn't believe I owned dee from a 3 year old. Sorry you feel im putting my mare at risk but that just shows how little you know about me really. I have had several vets, physios, chiropractors farrier etc look at her. All agree now. At the end of the day what I choose to do with my mar eis my choice. Everything is a risk. Foaling down risks any mare just as any pregnancy is a risk. But if people didn't take risks you wouldn't have the horses you own and call your own.

Thanks for the good luck wishes. But please, dont worry about dee. She's my pride and joy :)
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Incorrect, I remember you buying Dee as a three year old... as a very well established three year old, competing very successfully... you put up a picture in Misfits, remember :) In fact I think you were saying that you believe she was put under too much strain and they asked too much of her too young. I remember agreeing that you were probably right, since the mare was competing at such a decent level so young.

What you choose to do with your mare IS your choice, but since Im the person you came to for advice, brandishing a vets report clearly stating that your mare has Kissing Spine, Sacroiliac Joint issues and hind suspensory troubles... and I spent a great deal of time advising you and helping you to the best of my ability... imagine my surprise when I hear you are planning on putting it in foal :rolleyes:

Sorry, DD, but I've been honest with you from the start about this and I don't think your mare is suitable to breed from. That doesn't mean that I don't think she isn't a lovely mare, or that you dont care for her. If you choose to take offence, thats your call, but my comments are not meant with malice, only concern.
You have said you are following your (new) vets advice, and so if that is the case, I wish you and Delicia all the luck in the world.
 
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See was being backed when I bought her. She competed in sheer water classes when I owned her. :) I have a great amount of respect for you so shall agree to disagree.
 
I do think think it's a bit strange that there is an attitude that I will call them hobby breeders ( not being rude but need a handle to try to explain myself) get blamed for indescrimanate breeding and no one worrys about the big studs and the massive numbers of strange shaped creatures with no breeding that come in from Ireland .
And people say you should not breed why not if you can afford it and want to why not as long as you have the ability to work on with young ones and a creditable plan for a job for the horse .
You need to understand you may have to sell them I did this twice one was too big and very bolsy and difficult for because of its size because I had not had my hip replacement at that time I sold to a some one I know for a local pro to ride she was sold on again later.
Another a lovely sweet horse regularily getting very high percentages unaffiliated just did not enjoy jumping much above a metre and she wasnot quite up to my husbands wieght so she went to be a school mistress in a deal sent up a friend who's a dealer and producer shes was a complete star for that family and has foals of her own now.
And you have to understand you might have to brave and cull I have done this twice once for a one with a very nasty temperament and once when one was injured in the field and did not come right.
And it's great fun having them its not cost effective which is ultimately why I stopped but we had loads of pleasure from them.
 
Just to add in studs all over there will be mares with far far worse health / soundness issues than DD's mare churning out foals the difference is DD is very upfront about her mare.
 
GS, the term hobby breeder should never be taken in a snide way just like you describe. It simply means you don't make a living from breeding. Agree with your post %150.

Terri
 
Agreed GS. A LOT of dressage mares who have tendon issues have a foal whilst they heal. I'm 100% honest about DD but the market shouldn't be concerned as the foals for me :)
 
We've a mare who is literally everything we ever wanted, and the thought of losing her terrifies me. I spent YEARS looking for her. She's exceptionally well bred, but has the temperament of a saint. She hasn't won huge national classes, because she's been used as a PC pony because of her temperament and she hasn't got the wow factor when doing LR (she does have it FR though).
She has health issues which have come from age.

Would I breed from her?

In a word, no. I won't risk her happiness and health on a whim of wanting something for myself.
 
Delicious_D said:
Agreed GS. A LOT of dressage mares who have tendon issues have a foal whilst they heal. I'm 100% honest about DD but the market shouldn't be concerned as the foals for me :)
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That's exactly the point you will get your foal and get on with giving it a nice life and accept what you get sent.
As for the issues your mare has had you will very careful with your foal ,it's life style issues your mare had and you will manage your foals work carefully and I don't believe that having a foal is going to cause the mare any issues at all .
I wish you luck and will enjoy watching the story now I don't have my own.
 
Goldenstar said:
As for the issues your mare has had you will very careful with your foal ,it's life style issues your mare had and you will manage your foals work carefully
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Its not the foal I have concern for.

Goldenstar said:
Just to add in studs all over there will be mares with far far worse health / soundness issues than DD's mare churning out foals the difference is DD is very upfront about her mare.
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Sorry, but just because somebody somewhere is doing worse, doesn't make putting a mare with Kissing Spine (et al) in foal, OK.
I struggle to believe that any vet would have OK'd the mare to foal, or that the original vet could have got his findings so wrong, but like anything, it is entirely possible, and as I've said to DD if she is following the advice of her vet, then best of luck to her.
Just having a look at her BD results now, she's a talented little mare, hopefully she'll throw a lovely foal. As I've already said DD, all the best with her. Just because I dont think you ought to be putting her in foal doesn't mean that I don't plan to ogle the pictures of her or the foal when I see them :)
 
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I am one of the best breeders in my country, for my preferred sport. That isn't an arrogant comment, it's a fact. But this will be my last crop for at least five years, probably forever.

Despite knowing I could sell more foals, I don't feel it is responsible when there is such a surplus, and in economic times when you never know where a foal will end up if it ends up sold on.

I know my horses are classy, but bred to have a temperament suitable for less confident riders and handlers, because I feel that makes them easier to place in homes. If temperament was viewed as being as essential in breeding sports horses in the UK, as it is for me maybe there would be fewer issues?

As an aside, it honestly irritates me so much when someone says they are breeding and quality doesn't matter because it's a foal for them. You have no idea what's just around the corner - I have mares and a stallion I said I'd never sell, but my health problems mean I have to.
 
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Lady La La said:
Its not the foal I have concern for.



Sorry, but just because somebody somewhere is doing worse, doesn't make putting a mare with Kissing Spine (et al) in foal, OK.
I struggle to believe that any vet would have OK'd the mare to foal, or that the original vet could have got his findings so wrong, but like anything, it is entirely possible, and as I've said to DD if she is following the advice of her vet, then best of luck to her.
Just having a look at her BD results now, she's a talented little mare, hopefully she'll throw a lovely foal. As I've already said DD, all the best with her. Just because I dont think you ought to be putting her in foal doesn't mean that I don't plan to ogle the pictures of her or the foal when I see them :)
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KS is a term thrown about covering an issue that be either very mild and easily fixable or apsolutly catastrophic horses often show symptoms secondary to the hock issue DD's mare had its very likely that now the mare is sound the back will resolve itself .
Although I would be very careful that the mare does not get too fat and if she where mine I would lightly long rien and lunge her if the vet was happy with it to keep her muscles up until the pregnancy made me need to stop.
 
Ladylala I apologise in advance for the possibility of your time spent looking at them all :p. she is a talented mare and I believe the issues were caused by being backed too young, draw reins and perhaps being led into making decisions by the wrong people. :)

I jut worry about those ears being hereditary :(
 
I viewed a few babies when I was looking for my weanling that I would say were bred indiscriminately.

Yard 1.

Stallion, TB, injured young so not ridden (was supposed to race I believe) lived in a stable was brought out for nookie basically.

Mares, a field full of varying height and colours ( mostly Gypsy type mares with the oddwelsh cob X) Long feet, tangled manes and tails and just nothing of any 'class' so to speak :P

Foals, Coloured cobs x tb....all a bit 'Meh' there was one that had her dads head and was quite pretty but she wasnt ever going to make the height advertised.

I didnt buy from that yard. I would define that yard as breeding indiscriminately

Yard 2.

Lady had an ex Point to Point mare, she had been with them for years. She was origianly bought for daughter to event but daughter lost interest so she was kept and given a job. So she had foals, possibly one a year/one every other. They have all sold and I am still in contact with my Mares breeder via Facebook and email.
I will say I got my Mare for Peanuts as she was supposed to be coloured (as in she was by a coloured stallion out of a bay mare) :)

I suppose this could be seen as indiscriminately breeding, but the mare is well looked after, the stallions are chosen pretty well and all her youngstock sells.

I had always said I would love to breed from my Mare when shes a bit older. But as she is approaching 4 years old and after owning her for 3.5 years of her life Im far too attached to put her at risk.
 
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Dee's being lunged and long reined to keep her ticking over. :) KS is indeed the 'in' word for a blanket term. I agree. Before I rider again I am going to invest in a lighter saddle, I'm losing weight and I'll do it slowly on my terms. :)
 
Goldenstar said:
KS is a term thrown about covering an issue that be either very mild and easily fixable or apsolutly catastrophic horses often show symptoms secondary to the hock issue DD's mare had its very likely that now the mare is sound the back will resolve itself .
Although I would be very careful that the mare does not get too fat and if she where mine I would lightly long rien and lunge her if the vet was happy with it to keep her muscles up until the pregnancy made me need to stop.
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I presume you've seen the vets report then? Also, how do you plan to prevent a heavily in foal mare from getting 'too fat' ? I assume that when you say 'too fat' this is because you are worrying about weight ... my exact reasons for expressing the concern over putting this particular mare in foal. You cannot prevent weight gain and excess strain to the joints, spine, pelvis etc, when you put a mare in foal. I know this, due to being heavily in foal myself ;)
 
RealityCheck said:
I am one of the best breeders in my country, for my preferred sport. That isn't an arrogant comment, it's a fact. But this will be my last crop for at least five years, probably forever.

Despite knowing I could sell more foals, I don't feel it is responsible when there is such a surplus, and in economic times when you never know where a foal will end up if it ends up sold on.

I know my horses are classy, but bred to have a temperament suitable for less confident riders and handlers, because I feel that makes them easier to place in homes. If temperament was viewed as being as essential in breeding sports horses in the UK, as it is for me maybe there would be fewer issues?
P
As an aside, it honestly irritates me so much when someone says they are breeding and quality doesn't matter because it's a foal for them. You have no idea what's just around the corner - I have mares and a stallion I said I'd never sell, but my health problems mean I have to.
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I am not saying quality does not matter , DD's mare is very classy .
Mine where a Irish mare who was intermediate at six but an accident on the yard
stopped her ridden career and fantastic hunter mare lovely conformation who would have evented and a advanced mare who had fantasic limbs And was brave tough and very sound.
The quality did matter to me but I bred them for us to use the ones who went wrong I PTS the ones two I just could not find a job for I did sell on but people persistently say that people like me contribute to over breeding I simply don't believe I did.
If you read my past posts on this I did say that being prepared to cull is something you have to be prepared to do.
 
Goldenstar said:
I am not saying quality does not matter , DD's mare is very classy .

.
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Interesting statement. Do you think 'class' equates to quality in a horse?

In my mind a quality animal is a high achieving, completely sound, conformationaly correct horse, preferably with a desirable temperment. 'Class' has very litle to do with it, soundness does.
 
Lady La La said:
I presume you've seen the vets report then? Also, how do you plan to prevent a heavily in foal mare from getting 'too fat' ? I assume that when you say 'too fat' this is because you are worrying about weight ... my exact reasons for expressing the concern over putting this particular mare in foal. You cannot prevent weight gain and excess strain to the joints, spine, pelvis etc, when you put a mare in foal. I know this, due to being heavily in foal myself ;)
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No I have not seen the vets report and I assume you have not too , but I take DD word that her vet has advised her it's ok at face value.
But I know a bit about all this because BF is a vet who does a lot of stud work and we shared mares at one time I was always very carefull with all the mares wieght you can't stop the wieght of the foal but you can control the fat they gain by managing diet too many people let mares in foal over eat .
 
Don't want to cause offence but my opinion of this is someone who breeds their mare because she can't do anything else. Not because she's achieved something and has a good bloodline and the breeder wishes to pass this talent and good breeding on, but because she's aged, or injured or the opportunity arises. There's nothing wrong with breeding from a talented, well bred mare who has become injured and unrideable provided she's done something beforehand and has something worthwhile and measurable to pass on to her offspring. The same stands for the stallion.

An example of this is a girl I know who wants to breed from her mare which has been diagnosed with arthritis at a young age. This mare has done nothing of note and while she has reasonably good breeding it's nothing brilliant, and to top it all off she's sour, aggressive and bad tempered so now not only has she got a risk of passing her genetic arthritis to her foal but also her poor temperament. To me this is irresponsible breeding.
 
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