What is you definition of an indiscriminate breeding?

Quite simply, what is going on in Bishop Aukland and Darlington areas - thousands of 13hh black and white cobs. Every field, every scrap of waste land, old slag heaps, they are they. Industrial estates, tethered in parks, they are there.

I cannot believe the council has not cracked down on it - it is quite awful to see.
 
Goldenstar said:
No I have not seen the vets report and I assume you have not too , but I take DD word that her vet has advised her it's ok at face value.
But I know a bit about all this because BF is a vet who does a lot of stud work and we shared mares at one time I was always very carefull with all the mares wieght you can't stop the wieght of the foal but you can control the fat they gain by managing diet too many people let mares in foal over eat .
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I have seen it, yes. That's the whole point to my comments on this thread :confused:
I just find your comment strange, since you have brought up the need to control the mares weight you are obviously aware of the possible damage excess weight can cause, especially to a horse with the above issues :o
 
littlemisslauren said:
Interesting statement. Do you think 'class' equates to quality in a horse?

In my mind a quality animal is a high achieving, completely sound, conformationaly correct horse, preferably with a desirable temperment. 'Class' has very litle to do with it, soundness does.
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Thats a fair point but DD is breeding this foal for herself I bred different types for what we do I would not have used warmblood mares as I prefer to buy that sort I bred hunter / event types useful to us.
I don't think high achieveing is necessarily a prerequisite for a hobby brood mare type soundness and temperament ( particularily that ) and conformation are .if you are breeding an all rounder use a good alrounder mare if you a breeding a top level showjumper use a top level proven mare .
What I am trying to say is often people breeding all rounders are critised by people trying to breed top level horses and it seems to be an attiude that we should not be breeding our purpose bred horses so we can buy their not good enough top level ones to be our all rounders.
DD's choice is hers to make taking into account the advise from her vets her finances and the facilities she has aviable to her.
 
I bred my own 7 years ago, I really liked the mare graded hann, and I used a son of heartbreaker who I love and he is graded. I did all my research and was expecting a 17h with a fair amount of bone and potential superstar status. I actually go a wonky, cub footed tb x Arab look alike who was diagnosed with navicular before he was 3. Oh and he matured to 15h2!!! I was gutted but I bred him and even if he didn't have the navicular I would never sell him on as I bred him for me. Luckily I have land and he is out with my retired guys but I will never, ever breed again as even with all the research in the world you can never be sure what you will end up with
 
Shysmum said:
Quite simply, what is going on in Bishop Aukland and Darlington areas - thousands of 13hh black and white cobs. Every field, every scrap of waste land, old slag heaps, they are they. Industrial estates, tethered in parks, they are there.

I cannot believe the council has not cracked down on it - it is quite awful to see.
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Spot on I was once very involved with these sorts of horses and it's madness what goes on , some days I thought my head would explode.
 
Shysmum said:
Quite simply, what is going on in Bishop Aukland and Darlington areas - thousands of 13hh black and white cobs. Every field, every scrap of waste land, old slag heaps, they are they. Industrial estates, tethered in parks, they are there.

I cannot believe the council has not cracked down on it - it is quite awful to see.
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I am in Durham so unfortunately know exactly the type you are describing.
 
neep said:
I bred my own 7 years ago, I really liked the mare graded hann, and I used a son of heartbreaker who I love and he is graded. I did all my research and was expecting a 17h with a fair amount of bone and potential superstar status. I actually go a wonky, cub footed tb x Arab look alike who was diagnosed with navicular before he was 3. Oh and he matured to 15h2!!! I was gutted but I bred him and even if he didn't have the navicular I would never sell him on as I bred him for me. Luckily I have land and he is out with my retired guys but I will never, ever breed again as even with all the research in the world you can never be sure what you will end up with
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That's what you have to understand and embrace if you breed for your self I put my wrong one whose temperament was awful to sleep and never bred from that mare again.
 
Lady La La said:
I have seen it, yes. That's the whole point to my comments on this thread :confused:
I just find your comment strange, since you have brought up the need to control the mares weight you are obviously aware of the possible damage excess weight can cause, especially to a horse with the above issues :o
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I have not seen the report as I said and take at face value that the vet is happy.
I have a thing about fat horses that's why I brought it up you will see it in many of my posts I am good at horse diets , less good at my own sadly.
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
Spring Feather, American living in Ireland here. Everything you said is obviously correct. However, what freaks people out here is the abandoned horses and the surplus. Which we have back home too but not really in the sport horse sector.
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Oh I totally agree. We have more than our fair share of 'adandoned' horses who end up at the auction houses with many being shipped for meat too; significantly more than in Ireland or UK. I was more trying to clarify the sport horse market I'm in, and the types of horses that are bred by people like me really are quite easy rides for most people so if they don't end up doing much competition wise they are still in demand for riding club type activities and being happy hackers. A huge amount of the horses who end up in auctions or go for meat here (as you know) are often very well bred AQHAs and similar breeds. Even more are OTTBs and standardbreds. I know breeders who breed different type of horses for a different market who also seem to do very well and are just as responsible when it comes to trying to safeguard their stock. Although I do know some big breeders, the majority of the breeders I know are small scale like me and if we don't sell all of our weanlings at or before weaning time then it's not a particularly big deal, we just keep them for longer. Oh and I cannot agree with you enough on the problems that some trainers, inexperienced owners can cause a young horse. I've seen it so many times where the horse leaves the breeder, something goes wrong, breeder buys horse back, spends 6 months trying to just get the horse back to where it was prior to sale, and then another 6 months catching up on what it's missed.

Wagtail said:
I think it is perfectly reasonable to breed from a much loved mare if you intend to give the foal a home for life, even if that mare is unproven competitively, and has less than perfect conformation. However, IMO it is not acceptable to breed from such a mare with the intention of selling the foal.
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I'm not sure I agree with this Wagtail. I think everyone who breeds a horse should breed a foal with the mindset it will be sold. It may never be sold but the likelihood of that is quite slim overall because most are at some point. So if the mare does have less than great conformation she shouldn't be bred from at all (imo). I'm not talking a few dings here and there, I'm talking potentially major conformational/temperamental problems which could have some effect on the foal.
 
Goldenstar said:
What I am trying to say is often people breeding all rounders are critised by people trying to breed top level horses and it seems to be an attiude that we should not be breeding our purpose bred horses so we can buy their not good enough top level ones to be our all rounders.
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Absolutely no criticism from me as although we have a name for the discipline I breed for, it is basically the same, these horses are great allrounders and suitable for most people to ride from professionals to relative novices. People just tend to pay more for them here than over in the UK.

I know a few breeders in the UK who breed very nice horses, there's a couple at least come on this board. Some have licensed/graded stallions, some don't but from what I've seen they are all breeding very nice stock and have made a name for themselves in their marketplace, so although registered/papered horses over here are desired by many, it's not of such importance in the UK I don't think.
 
Goldenstar said:
What I am trying to say is often people breeding all rounders are critised by people trying to breed top level horses and it seems to be an attiude that we should not be breeding our purpose bred horses so we can buy their not good enough top level ones to be our all rounders.
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Really? Full credit to you for breeding more of what's really needed! My circles are swamped with lame reject WB types. :o
 
Flame_ said:
I don't know tbh, both I think.
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It would be interesting to find out why so many are breaking down at such young ages. I have my own thoughts on that but I'd be really interested to see a large, longterm study done on this. No money in performing such a study I guess so not going to happen unfortunately.
 
I used to breed dressage horses in a fairly large, commercial way (15 - 20 foals a year, for 12 years). I gave up breeding 21 years ago, and I will NEVER breed another horse. Because: there are too many horses, too few good homes: it is MUCH cheaper to buy a nice three year old than to breed it: if you buy you get to choose the size/sex/colour/conformation, not wait with fingers crossed to see what pops out. I happen to be able to produce my own horses (the only reason I made a living at breeding, BTW), but a very large number of small/hobby breeders do not.

Scenario A: I love my mare SO much that I will breed an ickle foal to be just like her.

Result: foal is NOTHING like either mare or stallion, I havn't the necessary skills to deal with it and it turns into a demented maniac.

Scenario B: I hate my crazy/lame/deformed mare, so I will breed a foal that will be stunning/talented/easy to deal with, and I won't have to face selling or putting down the mare.

Result: I get another crazy/lame/deformed creature that I havn't the neccessary skills to deal with.

Please: DO NOT BREED.
 
Lady La La said:
I presume you've seen the vets report then? Also, how do you plan to prevent a heavily in foal mare from getting 'too fat' ?

My maiden mare did not get 'fat' at all and looked a perfectly healthy weight right to the end of the pregnancy. I stopped riding her very early on but walked her 4 or 5 miles every day. My only issue for breeding now is the health of the mare and foal, my miniature mare that I bought knowing she was pregnant had a still birth last April and I would never put another mare or myself through that again. I was just very grateful that the mare came through it and is now a very happy girl. When my filly was born 20 years ago I never gave a second thought to things going wrong but having gone through the loss last year it would be on my mind continuously. I do wonder how many foals are lost with these 'breeders' with fields full of cobby coloureds or mares that are lost along the way.
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It takes at least 6 years to make a 5 year old riding horse. If all the breeders who are breeding to a programme stopped breeding tomorrow, what would we be left with in 6 years time? Teenage horses and coloured cobs? And then another 6 years for the breeders to get back up to having 5 year old riding horses, what would be available in the interim of these 12 years?
 
Wagtail said:
I think it is perfectly reasonable to breed from a much loved mare if you intend to give the foal a home for life, even if that mare is unproven competitively, and has less than perfect conformation. However, IMO it is not acceptable to breed from such a mare with the intention of selling the foal.
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Totally agree with this statement. We had a woman on our livery yard who had the mare she bitch from hell, it kicked, it had bitten every one of us, it was inconsistent (it had done BE intros badly) and it was one vile piece of work, it had a pretty face, but her neck was on upside down, she dished and had a lot of problems conformation wise, but she loved her terribly. Her job took her away a lot and she decided it was better to turn here away and make some money from breeding her as well.

Our YO tried to persuade her otherwise and told her she had to leave if the mare had a foal, and this woman spent ages looking for a nice stallion to breed with her mare, who was a full TB.Thank god she came to her senses and sold the mare, as I dread to think what would have happened as that was one nasty mare.

To be fair we did consider breeding Bonnie if she had not come sound from her injuriy last year, and if we had gone that route, her foal would have been related to Dee's foal, (I know they will be via the Samber line anyway), as was really impressed with Dee's potential husband, they were really helpful and the stallion is a gorgous boy. However, we have now decided to do it when her eventing days are over, or when I can afford to do it via embryo transfer. Bonnie is a lovely well bred, graded mare, with a fantastic temperament, but if we do, we will keep the baby ourselves for Mini TX to ride.
 
Cortez said:
I used to breed dressage horses in a fairly large, commercial way (15 - 20 foals a year, for 12 years). I gave up breeding 21 years ago, and I will NEVER breed another horse. Because: there are too many horses, too few good homes: it is MUCH cheaper to buy a nice three year old than to breed it: if you buy you get to choose the size/sex/colour/conformation, not wait with fingers crossed to see what pops out. I happen to be able to produce my own horses (the only reason I made a living at breeding, BTW), but a very large number of small/hobby breeders do not.

Scenario A: I love my mare SO much that I will breed an ickle foal to be just like her.

Result: foal is NOTHING like either mare or stallion, I havn't the necessary skills to deal with it and it turns into a demented maniac.

Scenario B: I hate my crazy/lame/deformed mare, so I will breed a foal that will be stunning/talented/easy to deal with, and I won't have to face selling or putting down the mare.

Result: I get another crazy/lame/deformed creature that I havn't the neccessary skills to deal with.

Please: DO NOT BREED.
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Or Scenario C bred from nice mare good temperament no glaring awful faults you accept what you get sent be brave enough to cull any disasters and then sell the odd one that does not suit into suitable jobs the rest live out there working lives with you and are PTS at home when the time comes in my book they where lucky lucky horses they died yards from where they were born.
The two I sold where not rejects they where half sisters and very nice horses if they had been unsuitable because of soundness issues I would not have parted with them.
The sort of breeding I did was not indescrimanate .
I think ATM if I where younger I would buy a really top class old fashioned type of ID mare if I wanted to bring on and sell as my ID I could sell anytime there always seems to be people desparate for his type likewise my clydesdale / welsh D I know several people who would love him if he was aviable , one asks me every time she sees me.
But it's no good just breeding you have to be able to make them into good well trained happy all rounders or it just wont work young horse work is not for everyone .
 
Spring Feather said:
I'm not sure I agree with this Wagtail. I think everyone who breeds a horse should breed a foal with the mindset it will be sold. It may never be sold but the likelihood of that is quite slim overall because most are at some point. So if the mare does have less than great conformation she shouldn't be bred from at all (imo). I'm not talking a few dings here and there, I'm talking potentially major conformational/temperamental problems which could have some effect on the foal.
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When I mean less than perfect conformation, I mean something like my mare here:

tenyearold.jpg


I certainly don't think ANY horse with a less than amiable temperament should be bred from.

I decided not to breed from my mare though as when I was debating it, she was already sixteen and I didn't want to risk her. But I would have been breeding to keep the foal for myself.
 
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Wagtail said:
When I mean less than perfect conformation, I mean something like my mare here:

tenyearold.jpg


I certainly don't think ANY horse with a less than amiable temperament should be bred from.

I decided not to breed from my mare though as when I was debating it, she was already sixteen and I didn't want to risk her. But I would have been breeding to keep the foal for myself.
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Okay yes we're on the same page then :) She's nice. Sometimes it's difficult to gauge what posters mean when they say they have nice mares but who aren't totally conformationally correct. I've seen some right doozie mares being bred from in my time on here who I would never dream of even considering breeding from, but their owners do because they think they are nice. And I've also seen plenty who have bred to keep and then further down the line, life happens and the youngster is sold. So I do still believe that when people breed their mare they should ALWAYS consider that th offspring may be sold one day and bear that in mind.
 
I'm not breeding now nor do I have plans anytime soon. Because I do think about the fact I'm bringing a living breathing creature into the world. One that requires people to look after from birth til death.

I mentioned in an earlier post what I've done with one who isn't a extremely nice model. She's not of exceptional talent either. Yet when people see Heidi they always remark what a nice mare. When I say not talented I don't mean trips over her own feet. Just not a 1.20 or 1.30 jumper. Very average. I adore her and she has many good qualities except you don't breed these types. They are to be enjoyed. She would be a cull.

And I agree with Spring Feather. Not breeding nice horses won't make change what else will be available and people will go elsewhere to get it.

Terri
 
Agrre terri....whilst we might make the conscienous decision not to breed or only breed from good horses...joe bloggs down the road will probably still breed.
 
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