what most of us knew already :)

ycbm

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The reason people won't comment is because they have been asked not to. Simple.
Palo your defense of illegal hunting beats me. I wondered why, on another thread, you knew for a certainty that people who follow a hunt which they know is hunting fox illegally are not committing a criminal offence, only the hunt officials. I guess now we know why you had felt the need to be sure of that yourself.
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Tiddlypom

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"Video no longer available due to a copywriter claim by the Hunt office". Theres a surprise.
Surprising that it took so long for that to happen, pro hunt legal beagles will have been scrambling to find a way, any way, to get it off FB et al :p.

But the transcripts remain, and I for one have saved those to Word. Plus many folk will have saved the webinar footage to their hard drive, too.

The reason people won't comment is because they have been asked not to. Simple.
Of course. You are awaiting instructions from the hunting high ups on what it is permissible to post.

I like you as a poster, palo1, and Id like to believe your previous assertions that your small pack does indeed trail hunt, but those webinars have blasted any trust in what the hunting community say out of the water.

Remember that I used to hunt well before the ban - I had been out with 7 different packs over a few seasons. Once the Hunting Act came in, I believed that hunts had indeed switched to trail hunting - and I would never have condoned or followed any pack that was still illegally hunting.
 

palo1

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Palo your defense of illegal hunting beats me. I wondered why, on another thread, you knew for a certainty that people who follow a hunt which they know is hunting fox illegally are not committing a criminal offence, only the hunt officials. I guess now we know why you had felt the need to be sure of that yourself.
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I am not sure what you are implying here @ycbm but in that other thread and post I was simply reporting what the legality of the hunt follower is. When the ban on hunting was introduced most people who wanted to continue were informed that this was the position that they would be in. I have never had need to identify a particular legal situation in relation to myself personally speaking nor in relation to a specific situation that I have encountered.
 

palo1

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Surprising that it took so long for that to happen, pro hunt legal beagles will have been scrambling to find a way, any way, to get it off FB et al :p.

But the transcripts remain, and I for one have saved those to Word. Plus many folk will have saved the webinar footage to their hard drive, too.

Of course. You are awaiting instructions from the hunting high ups on what it is permissible to post.

I like you as a poster, palo1, and Id like to believe your previous assertions that your small pack does indeed trail hunt, but those webinars have blasted any trust in what the hunting community say out of the water.

Remember that I used to hunt well before the ban - I had been out with 7 different packs over a few seasons. Once the Hunting Act came in, I believed that hunts had indeed switched to trail hunting - and I would never have condoned or followed any pack that was still illegally hunting.
Thank you for your kind words Tiddlypom. :) I am not waiting for 'instructions' in any way lol as it is most unlikely that anyone would contact me to tell me what to say or do but I am happy enough that the body overseeing hunting has asked people, quite reasonably, not to comment on the HSA post and accusations. I have no desire to play into a HSA led dance and cannot really offer anything to a discussion; I too have watched the webinars though and read the transcripts. I have no intention of saying what I think here - it simply isn't productive for either party in the debate.
 

meleeka

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Thank you for your kind words Tiddlypom. :) I am not waiting for 'instructions' in any way lol as it is most unlikely that anyone would contact me to tell me what to say or do but I am happy enough that the body overseeing hunting has asked people, quite reasonably, not to comment on the HSA post and accusations. I have no desire to play into a HSA led dance and cannot really offer anything to a discussion; I too have watched the webinars though and read the transcripts. I have no intention of saying what I think here - it simply isn't productive for either party in the debate.
Are you a politician? If not you might want to consider it as a career :)
 

palo1

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re. the 'silence' I don't actually think we have that may regulars who are hunting subscribers here anymore. It's a very quiet part of the forum in general.
Even though the Horse and Hound publication has been completely clear about it's support for legal hunting (and especially so of late) this would not be most people's choice of place to discuss hunting matters as clearly it is rather more popular with those that do not wish to see any kind of hunting related activity continue in the UK. That does sort of make it a teeny bit 'unwelcoming' and unpopular with those that do want to discuss hunting...I am not sure why I respond to threads on here mostly as there are other more interesting places to do that tbh.
 

ycbm

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. When the ban on hunting was introduced most people who wanted to continue were informed that this was the position that they would be in.

Why did anyone need to be informed that they would not be committing a criminal offence if they followed a hunt which was hunting illegally, unless people fully intended to be hunting illegally?

I don't know why I'm arguing about this really. In Cheshire we all knew that hunts were deliberately laying no trails or false/weak trails and continuing to hunt fox. Many years ago on this forum I was accused of lying about it. I'm pleased that it can no longer plausibly be denied.
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Tiddlypom

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re. the 'silence' I don't actually think we have that may regulars who are hunting subscribers here anymore. It's a very quiet part of the forum in general.
There are a few, though, and several have posted elsewhere on the forum since this thread became live - they will not be unaware of it :).

Palo, I dont think there are many ban all forms of hunting folk on here. There is support for genuine trail hunting, drag hunting and hunting the clean boot (not sure on all the correct nomenclature for all of those, I only took part in the full fat version pre ban).

My own local pack went legit from the start of the 2019/20 season. Trouble was, it had long been that saying it was legit before that when it wasnt. It was only the threat of losing access to a large tranch of country because the estate was fed up of all the bad publicity that they were bringing that forced the change to trail hunting. (I know this from first and second hand conversations with folk directly involved with followers of that pack, not from anything that the antis may have said).

They do seem to be enjoying themselves trail hunting. The antis pop in from time to time to keep an eye on them, but seem satisfied that nothing untoward is now going on.


Its a huge relief that peace has been restored for us residents, too.
 

palo1

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Why did anyone need to be informed that they would not be committing a criminal offence if they followed a hunt which was hunting illegally, unless people fully intended to be hunting illegally?

I don't know why I'm arguing about this really. In Cheshire we all knew that hunts were deliberately laying no trails or false/weak trails and continuing to hunt fox. Many years ago on this forum I was accused of lying about it. I'm pleased that it can no longer plausibly be denied.
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There are a few, though, and several have posted elsewhere on the forum since this thread became live - they will not be unaware of it :).

Palo, I dont think there are many ban all forms of hunting folk on here. There is support for genuine trail hunting, drag hunting and hunting the clean boot (not sure on all the correct nomenclature for all of those, I only took part in the full fat version pre ban).

My own local pack went legit from the start of the 2019/20 season. Trouble was, it had long been that saying it was legit before that when it wasnt. It was only the threat of losing access to a large tranch of country because the estate was fed up of all the bad publicity that they were bringing that forced the change to trail hunting. (I know this from first and second hand conversations with folk directly involved with followers of that pack, not from anything that the antis may have said).

They do seem to be enjoying themselves trail hunting. The antis pop in from time to time to keep an eye on them, but seem satisfied that nothing untoward is now going on.


Its a huge relief that peace has been restored for us residents, too.
That is good to hear :):) It seems as if no matter what I might say people will suggest that I am dissembling or lying really on this part of the forum about this issue but I do know that our local wildlife liaison officer is a decent bloke (I have no idea how he feels about hunting or anything else though as I have only heard him speak at meetings and heard what other locals have to say about him) and when accosted at a Wildlife Trust meeting about illegal hunting felt able to say that around here it is not an issue. How that may be interpreted by others I have no idea but my interpretation was that he did not feel that illegal hunting was threatening local wildlife. I can only speak as I find and believe. The debate seems akin to that around drink driving; it is illegal to drink and drive but people are still allowed to go to the pub. Publicans and the brewery industry are not and should not be treated as complicit in drink driving offences though their occupation makes them more vulnerable to being associated with those crimes. Not everyone that goes to the pub will drive home over the limit though some will and there will be disastrous consequences. We are still licensing pubs and allowing them to serve alcohol.

But hey ho, this part of the forum is not that interesting and whatever the result of the HSA's hysterical 'Mass Criminality in Hunting Community...' 'scoop' is will play out eventually. I am not holding my breath tbh.
 

Tiddlypom

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The debate seems akin to that around drink driving; it is illegal to drink and drive but people are still allowed to go to the pub.
Eh? There is no comparison between someone going to the pub and drinking within the limit to someone who rides with an illegally hunting pack.

The former is both morally sound and technically legal, the latter whilst it may not be technically illegal is morally utterly reprehensible. The person knows that they are involved in and supporting an illegal activity.

And then you further spoil things by calling the HSA scoop hysterical. I think not.
 

The Jokers Girl

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Eh? There is no comparison between someone going to the pub and drinking within the limit to someone who rides with an illegally hunting pack.

The former is both morally sound and technically legal, the latter whilst it may not be technically illegal is morally utterly reprehensible. The person knows that they are involved in and supporting an illegal activity.

And then you further spoil things by calling the HSA scoop hysterical. I think not.
I think posters like palo may be why the hunting office asked illegal hunters to keep quiet as they are just making things worse for them
 

The Jokers Girl

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I understood palos point to be a comparison between those riding out with legal packs, and those riding with illegal packs?
But I don't think anyone has an issue with legal trail, drag hunting etc. It's the mindless torture and killing of defenseless animals, after you've chased them for several miles across countryside, often through private land and properties causing other damage in their wake that is the issue.
The hunt local to me certainly don't operate legally. If they did they wouldn't have been banned from entering local farms in the area after the hounds have killed pets and farm animals. If the hunt was legal and they were following a set scent trail they wouldn't be so far into private land doing horrific damage to their pets and livelihood.
I'm certainly not going to name the pack but if you google them there is all sorts of articles reporting on their activities and the damage and distress they have caused
 

ester

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perhaps palo can clarify :) it wasn't really my point to make I just interpreted it differently.

I don't need to google anything- hard to google something you aren't given the name of anyway. I am aware of one up here and one in somerset that spend a lot of time upsetting people with their behaviour.
 

ycbm

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The debate seems akin to that around drink driving; it is illegal to drink and drive but people are still allowed to go to the pub. Publicans and the brewery industry are not and should not be treated as complicit in drink driving offences though their occupation makes them more vulnerable to being associated with those crimes. Not everyone that goes to the pub will drive home over the limit though some will and there will be disastrous consequences. We are still licensing pubs and allowing them to serve alcohol.
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Doesn't work for me, P, sorry. The Pub industry would be very outspoken if publicans were exposed as encouraging people who are over the limit to drive. And it is inconceivable that anyone would train publicans to do that.

The rest of the people in the pub are not complicit in the drink driving offence, while an illegal fox hunt has dozens or even hundreds who know exactly what is being done but don't report it. And worse, the entire legal hunting industry in the UK, drag and trail, knew what was going on and seemingly failed to lift a finger to stop it.

The silence from the powers that be in fox hunting has been deafening, with a statement limited to saying things have been taken out of context, (when they clearly have not), and telling people who hunt not to talk about it, in the hope that the issue will die down.

I hope we have reached a turning point with this exposure, and illegal hunting will now stop.
 

The Jokers Girl

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It was a figure speech I wasn't asking you to google anything :rolleyes: just making the point that the pack local to me operate very much outside the law and have been publicly called out on in many times after peoples animals on private land have been killed.

Yes maybe palo can clarify her comparison to drink driving (blood sport hunting) that everyone knows is illegal, but popping to the pub for a pint (trail/drag hunting) isn't.
 

Tiddlypom

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I think it was palo in an earlier thread who pointed out that you are not breaking the law if you knowingly take part in illegal hunting but as a member of the field. It is the masters and the hunt staff who would carry the can if the case came to court.

It is fair to say that I have no time for people who are happy to use that cop out.
 

PurBee

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Gloucestershire hunt, hunt foxes. I saw it with my own eyes as i was relaxing in my friends quaint village garden having a cuppa! Heard screaming pack of hounds in the fields below...no horses....then suddenly a huge fox flew up the lane, and scrambled over a tall stone wall into a churchyard...the dogs got closer but lost the scent and went another direction. So the dogs had fox scent, and still going for them, even if a trail had been laid.
 

palo1

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I think it was palo in an earlier thread who pointed out that you are not breaking the law if you knowingly take part in illegal hunting but as a member of the field. It is the masters and the hunt staff who would carry the can if the case came to court.

It is fair to say that I have no time for people who are happy to use that cop out.
I certainly didn't say that.
 

palo1

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I understood palos point to be a comparison between those riding out with legal packs, and those riding with illegal packs?
Exactly this. And many people in a pub will see people drinking to excess and possibly even know that they will get in a vehicle to drive. Publicans are entirely aware of those of their customers that do this as well. I do understand however that this discussion isn't about drink driving - I just felt it to be a fairly similar analogy.
 
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