What next?

Birker2020 said:
Still from the video of when he took off with the pro rider. And from what he did with me in reaction to being ridden during a saddle fit. I never quite got my confidence back after that.
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That is a lot to deal with, mine has pretty much demolished my confidence :(
 
So, last update on this as Im actually boring myself now talking about him (I can only apologise to those who have to listen to me!)

We had the chiro on Tues and actually she said he was moving the best she had ever seen him 👏 Dare I say, sound?

He was loose lunged and there was a lot of pretty ferocious bucking, very argumentative, unhappy at being asked to do something and challenging beibg asked to change direction etc, it looked like defiance but I dont know if horses can actually be defiant. But very much like he is the boss.
She suggested speaking to a natural horsemanship person she works with, who might be able to completely restart him. Send him for a month or 2 and see what she can do.
But really he looks to be challenging being asked to do anything by anyone.

Now the problem is I can't work with him myself, he has chipped my confidence away to nothing and I do not trust him or my ability to work with him.

So my options are:
A) send to natural horseperson and try to restart
B) scope and hope we find something to treat that could explain behaviour
C) Sell (I would never sell him given all of his issues, just including as someone suggested this)
D) just stop, and PTS (which feels impossibly unfair on him when he is presenting sound, and Im so guilty that if he had a different person maybe theyd be more able to work him through this behaviour whereas I just cant)
 
jilly2024 said:
So, last update on this as Im actually boring myself now talking about him (I can only apologise to those who have to listen to me!)

We had the chiro on Tues and actually she said he was moving the best she had ever seen him 👏 Dare I say, sound?

He was loose lunged and there was a lot of pretty ferocious bucking, very argumentative, unhappy at being asked to do something and challenging beibg asked to change direction etc, it looked like defiance but I dont know if horses can actually be defiant. But very much like he is the boss.
She suggested speaking to a natural horsemanship person she works with, who might be able to completely restart him. Send him for a month or 2 and see what she can do.
But really he looks to be challenging being asked to do anything by anyone.

Now the problem is I can't work with him myself, he has chipped my confidence away to nothing and I do not trust him or my ability to work with him.

So my options are:
A) send to natural horseperson and try to restart
B) scope and hope we find something to treat that could explain behaviour
C) Sell (I would never sell him given all of his issues, just including as someone suggested this)
D) just stop, and PTS (which feels impossibly unfair on him when he is presenting sound, and Im so guilty that if he had a different person maybe theyd be more able to work him through this behaviour whereas I just cant)
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Please don't feel guilty.
Which ever option you go for the horse has had nothing but understanding and love from you.
He isn't aware of anything that might or could be done.
He is loved and everything is being done for him that can be.
 
Horses aren't defiant, I think something it being missed but that no-one would blame you for not getting a different perspective (NOT NH, I'd not send him to anyone to restart or to try to work through this) from a holistic practitioner and PTS, but it IS another option, not the same as B (as is almost doing the second opinion yourself with assessing him via the gentle groundwork I linked to, and also the brilliant resources on equitopiacenter.com).

I want to say again, I would absolutely not blame you for PTS, there are worse fates.
 
I have a little different train of thought where maybe he is finally actually feeling decent and not in pain. His demeanor when you got him might have been because of pain issues and so he was never truly broke just not comfortable and feeling like he could do the things to communicate his discomfort so it’s led to this behavior. If you want that last nail in the coffin of trying I think restarting might be a really good idea. If you feel like it’s all been too much that is extremely valid and honestly it might be true where even if he is finally comfortable he’ll never be able to be a safe rider due to his past before you ever even laid eyes on him. Regardless you deserve to have a horse you feel safe riding and horses don’t know there’s a tomorrow. There’s much worse than a safe home to pass in
 
Fraggle2 said:
Please don't feel guilty.
Which ever option you go for the horse has had nothing but understanding and love from you.
He isn't aware of anything that might or could be done.
He is loved and everything is being done for him that can be.
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Thank you so much, I really do just want the best for him and I think/hope knows he is loved x
 
sbloom said:
Horses aren't defiant, I think something it being missed but that no-one would blame you for not getting a different perspective (NOT NH, I'd not send him to anyone to restart or to try to work through this) from a holistic practitioner and PTS, but it IS another option, not the same as B (as is almost doing the second opinion yourself with assessing him via the gentle groundwork I linked to, and also the brilliant resources on equitopiacenter.com).

I want to say again, I would absolutely not blame you for PTS, there are worse fates.
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Out of sheer noseyness, why not NH? Would that be a massive mistake?
And yes thank you, will have a read through your link properly over the weekend, definitely worth a go x
 
MoodyFox_13 said:
I have a little different train of thought where maybe he is finally actually feeling decent and not in pain. His demeanor when you got him might have been because of pain issues and so he was never truly broke just not comfortable and feeling like he could do the things to communicate his discomfort so it’s led to this behavior. If you want that last nail in the coffin of trying I think restarting might be a really good idea. If you feel like it’s all been too much that is extremely valid and honestly it might be true where even if he is finally comfortable he’ll never be able to be a safe rider due to his past before you ever even laid eyes on him. Regardless you deserve to have a horse you feel safe riding and horses don’t know there’s a tomorrow. There’s much worse than a safe home to pass in
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This is a train of thought I probably hadnt considered so thanks :)
 
jilly2024 said:
This is a train of thought I probably hadnt considered so thanks :)
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I also second not NH. While in theory their theory can sound good at the very surface level but when you actually look into it and the reality of how it is utilized it really doesn’t make sense. Certain things for horses hasn’t greatly changed but they’ve been domesticated for so long at this point they really need to be trained like the domesticated animal they have been bred and selected to be. Which there’s a lot of great different ways but horses haven’t been natural how they claim for a long while. Mine would simply pass away without his fan on a warm day lol
 
Poor boy and poor you! You’ve both been through so much!
I’m in a similar position with my 5 year old ID x Welsh who started showing unpredictable behaviour under saddle and being aggressive to tack up. Several people said she was trying it on but luckily I got vet out and also contacted an amazing lady who does radionics (she gave me so much info on why she was behaving like she was)! She had ulcers, sore front hooves so shod and then diagnosed with juvenile arthritis😭 She’s had hocks medicated, Tilden infusion and ulcers treated! She now feels amazing to ride! But we’ve had the odd moment where she has lifted a hind leg while tacking up! My friend who is an equine vet recommended watching videos by DR Gemma Pearson who is a vet specialising in behaviour. I realised mine was displaying grumpy behaviour when tied up eating her hay as also on restricted diet. She now comes in, has her feed in middle of yard, I do a few mins of groundwork, pick hooves up, put saddle on reinforcing good behaviour and then she gets 15 mins munching hay in peace before I ride! Her behaviour has been perfect over the last week!
It’s so hard to know if it’s pain or learned behaviour!
 
I would suggest if he is sound blood test him.

I was having an issue with my pony and it turned out it was his liver causing his behaviour. It presented very similar to ulcers. He scoped clear for ulcers and blood tested him and his liver enzymes were raised 147 should be 49 or less. We have treated his liver condition with Hepalyte and after nearly two months his bloods are almost back to normal and he is like a different pony.

Apparently there has been a lot of liver issues this year.
 
Sound doesn't equal not in pain, and they can seem sound when they're bilaterally lame. I'm not against a NH person I use them myself and you could do it as one last try, but if you do, I really recommend you get your mind set that it is the LAST try.
But it's more money and I suspect the answer will be there's pain somewhere.
 
jilly2024 said:
Out of sheer noseyness, why not NH? Would that be a massive mistake?
And yes thank you, will have a read through your link properly over the weekend, definitely worth a go x
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It's more about not having him restarted, I think it's a huge risk and my instinct is always to avoid putting other professionals in danger. NH because you mentioned it, but also when you want to assess how the body is physically, and you need to build correct balance and movement, the tendency towards disengagement would be a significant issue working against the overall aim.

Have a look at Mills Consilient Horsemanship, some aspects of NH and cowboy/vaquera stuff and some very correct classical dressage, coming from a "balance first" perspective. She has an inexpensive FB membership group where she's developing a Beta course on assessing equine movement patterns. I also come across well regarded or at least busy, NH practitioners who I'd not put a horse within a mile of too, even if they don't use disengagement techniques.
 
sbloom said:
It's more about not having him restarted, I think it's a huge risk and my instinct is always to avoid putting other professionals in danger. NH because you mentioned it, but also when you want to assess how the body is physically, and you need to build correct balance and movement, the tendency towards disengagement would be a significant issue working against the overall aim.

Have a look at Mills Consilient Horsemanship, some aspects of NH and cowboy/vaquera stuff and some very correct classical dressage, coming from a "balance first" perspective. She has an inexpensive FB membership group where she's developing a Beta course on assessing equine movement patterns. I also come across well regarded or at least busy, NH practitioners who I'd not put a horse within a mile of too, even if they don't use disengagement techniques.
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So, funny you say all of this.
I spoke to the NH person, and actually she said she wouldnt be in a position to take on a horse of his size who has learned to use his size and who responds in the way he does, as she would be putting herself at risk of injury.
She also said he probably wouldnt physically stand up to the physical demands of restarting and correcting those behaviours given all his pre exisiting issues.
She did have a very frank conversation with me and said I dont need to feel guilty if I decide ive reached the end of the line that Ive done everything I can to keep him healthy and physically ok, but his attitude now is a massive barrier to progressing further safely and I need to also think of myself (easier said than done) and its okay to just stop now.
Was very emotional but I needed to hear it and I felt somewhat relieved. I dont think I can do anymore x
 
Alibear said:
Sound doesn't equal not in pain, and they can seem sound when they're bilaterally lame. I'm not against a NH person I use them myself and you could do it as one last try, but if you do, I really recommend you get your mind set that it is the LAST try.
But it's more money and I suspect the answer will be there's pain somewhere.
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She wont take us on as a client :( (see previous comment) so thats really that. Totally understand where she was coming from, no hard feelings, absolutely understand. Still sucks tho x
 
jilly2024 said:
So, funny you say all of this.
I spoke to the NH person, and actually she said she wouldnt be in a position to take on a horse of his size who has learned to use his size and who responds in the way he does, as she would be putting herself at risk of injury.
She also said he probably wouldnt physically stand up to the physical demands of restarting and correcting those behaviours given all his pre exisiting issues.
She did have a very frank conversation with me and said I dont need to feel guilty if I decide ive reached the end of the line that Ive done everything I can to keep him healthy and physically ok, but his attitude now is a massive barrier to progressing further safely and I need to also think of myself (easier said than done) and its okay to just stop now.
Was very emotional but I needed to hear it and I felt somewhat relieved. I dont think I can do anymore x
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Then listen, because you can look for problems forever and even if you find them the chances are they arent fixable. I let one of mine go on too long. Pressure from vets, disbelief it was happening and hope that he would recover all came together and let me justify one more thing. In hindisght I wish Id called time a hell of a lot sooner, but once the worst of the grief was over I made peace with it.
 
jilly2024 said:
I did a quick google of signs of liver issues in horses and I dont see any that apply to him- what behaviours were you seeing in yours?
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He started off with bucking under the saddle into canter. Then he was getting more and more nappy refusing to go forward under saddle. On the lunge he was ok but then starting bucking in canter and then he became difficult on the lunge coming into the middle backing up. He reared once. He became defiant. Worse on the right rein and also doing side bitting. Liver is on the right. Presumed it was ulcers but scoped clear. He is muzzled when in the field and not on ad lib hay as he is fat native. Bute trial made no difference and saddle was adjusted but check was impossible to do properly as he was refusing to go forward into trot and napping so much. Physio said back was good and so did vet and saddle fitter.

Blood test with liver profiles including call out was £200.

It has taken a couple of months on Hepalyte to get his liver under control.

On horse that is sound but exhibiting performance issues my vet did the following. Bute trial. Scoped for ulcers. Blood test. We also x-rays back hooves to check hoof balance.

Professionals were able to manage his behaviour somewhat but he was really exhibiting very extreme behaviour with me. He is young native had a few issues last year with locking stifle and his front hooves which got very soft during the wet weather, saddle fit. He has also grown quite a bit between 5 and 7. He was bum high and no wither and has finally evened out.

If the blood test had been negative the next step would have been a bone scan.
 
I was having a chat with my physio about this the other day, about how some horses are ‘stoic’ and put up with a level of mild discomfort or confusing signals from their human and just get on with it without getting angry and reacting dangerously. These are the ones we should be buying, according to her, as with the best will in the world, no-one can be perfect all the time and ridden horses will never be completely free from discomfort. Same as any human athlete will be pushing themselves in the gym, or having the occasional pair of uncomfortable trainers. Nice humans will be looking for signs in their stoics that things are not quite right and will act accordingly. Everyone is pretty happy and rubbing along nicely.

This chap is sadly not one of those. He may be ‘sound’, but something is upsetting him and he’s reacting in a way that is dangerous for you and other people who may take him on. He’s not really happy being a horse in the presence of humans with all that they expect of him. He is not a stoic one.

You are a very nice human and I don’t think there’s anything you can really do to turn him from sensitive to stoic. He is what he is.

I had a very similar one and I got the end of the line and pts. I do feel guilty sometimes, but he was not even happy just being out in the field. Would have moments of such unpredictability he was a danger to himself, his humans, and sometimes even the other horses.
 
I'm Dun said:
Then listen, because you can look for problems forever and even if you find them the chances are they arent fixable. I let one of mine go on too long. Pressure from vets, disbelief it was happening and hope that he would recover all came together and let me justify one more thing. In hindisght I wish Id called time a hell of a lot sooner, but once the worst of the grief was over I made peace with it.
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Thank you for this, and Im sorry youve been through something similar as its absolutely draining and heartbreaking. But yes pretty sure Ive made my decision and its same as yours. Can't believe its got to this x
 
Jellymoon said:
I was having a chat with my physio about this the other day, about how some horses are ‘stoic’ and put up with a level of mild discomfort or confusing signals from their human and just get on with it without getting angry and reacting dangerously. These are the ones we should be buying, according to her, as with the best will in the world, no-one can be perfect all the time and ridden horses will never be completely free from discomfort. Same as any human athlete will be pushing themselves in the gym, or having the occasional pair of uncomfortable trainers. Nice humans will be looking for signs in their stoics that things are not quite right and will act accordingly. Everyone is pretty happy and rubbing along nicely.

This chap is sadly not one of those. He may be ‘sound’, but something is upsetting him and he’s reacting in a way that is dangerous for you and other people who may take him on. He’s not really happy being a horse in the presence of humans with all that they expect of him. He is not a stoic one.

You are a very nice human and I don’t think there’s anything you can really do to turn him from sensitive to stoic. He is what he is.

I had a very similar one and I got the end of the line and pts. I do feel guilty sometimes, but he was not even happy just being out in the field. Would have moments of such unpredictability he was a danger to himself, his humans, and sometimes even the other horses.
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Funny we used to kind of joke that he would let us know pretty quickly if something was upsetting him but now that seems to be his undoing. He is sensitive, nothing stoic about him, and its the unpredictability I cant cope with, Im not equipped to deal with these kinds of issues and as other posters have said, its a risk to even professionals who take them on. Sorry you went through similar, I know the guilt too well already but hopefully in time it goes away. Will work up to calling the vet this week :( x
 
I would certainly say horses can be “defiant”. I had one that was a thug, and had spent 15 years of his life throwing his weight around and scaring people.

After a lot of ground work, and a lot of the toys coming out of the pram, and “shan’t”, and “won’t” from him, we came out the other side with a totally different horse.
 
This is pretty much exactly where I am at present with mine. Its a very hard decision to make particularly when they are such nice horses to work with.
 
So… prior to the vet issues he was a sweet easy dope on a rope personality. Now he is dominant and aggressive, not wanting to move forwards. Horses have a personality that is pretty much set from birth. They can improve in terms of ‘growing up’ and becoming more mature, but they don’t become less pleasant as individuals without significant trauma or current pain.
 
jilly2024 said:
Yeah I think to be honest I agree. If he scopes positive for ulcers, then that might be all it is and that's great we can treat that, but just with so much going on behind, its so plausible there is something else. I promised myself I wasnt doing anymore big veterinary investigations, we are many 1000s in at this stage and Id considered PTS instead if the suspensory op but thought one more try. Its so hard given he is STUNNING and is a big playful goofter most of the time but clearly he is not totally happy on the inside :(
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Is he just like this when ridden? Not quite like your horse but my new mare was very unhappy when ridden. After a lot of examinations by every equine professional under the sun & a week in horsepital - X-rays / MRI / nerve blocks / the lot! Nothing conclusive came out, just a lot of maybes. Advice from specialist was just don’t ride her. That was 7 yrs ago. She’s now a happy relaxed delightful field companion for my golden oldie & my rescue pony.
 
Just a final final update on this and I have now spoken to the vet and sadly we have his last day booked for Friday next week.

Having spoken at length with our yard owner, our vet/chiro (who is also a friend), our vet, the NH woman and our freelance rider, the common consensus is that this is the best option for him. Its been a long few years of injury, and as sound as he might look he is still miserable. He has started to demolish his stable with his teeth, and his biting has progressed to narrowly missing my face (how Im not injured is a miracle). He no longer likes to be groomed and is anxious even doing the same handwalking in the yard we did for months on rehab and he just seems to be getting more miserable in his own skin without a job, yet all of this really progressed when we were trying to give him his job back. I think physically and mentall, restarting will be too much for him, and actually he will imo never be really safe for a general everyday rider and ultimately I cant risk myself or anyone else, but his brain needs a job. So catch 22.

I guess we cant save them all, and my heart is broken, but I am at least content in the knowledge I cant do anymore and I have given him as much help and support as I possibly could.
 
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