What should the maximum number of dogs that a professional dog walker should be responsible for at one time be?

[stangs]

I don't really get this. Can you explain a little more please. So if you have a pack of dogs( or horses) are you saying that there is no pecking order and none of them are dominant over another dog (or horse)

The definition of dominance is that dog X, the dominant one, consistently wins in conflict with less-dominant conspecifics, and so eventually only needs to use 'light' agonistic signals to get what they want. They get their pick of resources before everything else, choose bitches/mares before everyone else, etc. This results in the herd/pack having an unchanging linear or pyramid structure.

But that's not what actually happens. Herds and packs have much more varied, complex, and changing structures; traditional dominance theory doesn't account for affiliative relationships; and the animal that gets a resource first isn't necessarily the dominant one. So "dominance" (i.e., dominance theory's "dominance") doesn't seem to exist for a variety of species. Hierarchies exist, (more so in herds; less so in free-living and feral dog packs), yes. But "dominance" doesn't.

Besides, for domestic dogs/horses, dominance tends to get used in three main contexts:
a) This animal is of a 'dominant' nature and therefore needs a specific training style (except dominance isn't a character trait)
b) The animal is being 'dominant' (when really it's just resource guarding/in pain/etc, and labelling the behaviour as dominance prevents you from getting to the root of the problem).
c) The owner needs to be dominant to train an animal (but when you remember that "dominance" is, by definition, agonistic experiences... is that really what you want to be doing?)

The words 'dominance'/'alpha' etc, are still used in the literature, as other terms for describing rankings that you see aren't mainstream. However, this usage is always between conspecifics. There's not much supporting the idea that human-horse or human-dog relations could be dominance-based. So, when owners/trainers, start talking about dominance in relation to themselves, it's just not really right.

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jveb.2008.08.004 - A good overview of dominance theory with dogs
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.beproc.2013.10.007 - A fun little study on horses that does make reference to dominance, but conveys the complexity of equine relations

 

[twiggy2]

The second you start talking about dominance and packs it is wrong. Its been scientifically proven to be wrong.

The pack the research was done on was not a pack and it was wolves not dogs, it was a group of wolves unknown to each other that were plonked together, their behaviour was not that of a pack, so the research was floored.
That doesn't mean that the idea of a pack is floored though as dogs do live in packs and form bonds and places within the hierarchy.
Very few dogs will fight for dominance and resources though as they are usually born into the chance of a high ranking position and the vast majority don't want to be high ranking.
QweQw see it in our pack, the most high ranking dogs don't have to concern themselves with the other dogs as a rule and will only step in if needed, fighting is rare because the others won't challenge a high ranking dog.
a high ranking dog is usually calm amd level headed and brings that calmness to the whole group, they mostly follow that dogs lead through choice.

I believe dogs operate a hierarchy, I don't believe they think that humans are dogs too.
I believe dogs need good leadership but there's a difference between a good motivational boss and a boss who just acts like a prick and flogs you to death.

A truly dominant dog barely takes others under his notice. They're not that important.

I don't think they think we are dogs, I do believe that they are more receptive to a calm leadership from humans too, they like us to be dependable. Like you say not an explosive abusive prick.

 

[marmalade76]

I'm not sure I could be considered fluffy, but I do reward my dogs for good behaviour with food/toys/play, not always just 'because I told you to', it keeps them happy and motivated. Dogs only do what is in their best interest.
What is missing among a lot of pet dog owners is the compliance element, 'you must/must not' but IME it has to be balanced with motivation/reward or else you just get a dog that does everything and looks flat or a dog that picks and chooses when it does what it is told.

Depends what you're asking your dog to do, I suppose. Hanging out down the yard with me is reward enough for my dog and I can assure you she is never "flat".

 

[CorvusCorax]

Depends what you're asking your dog to do, I suppose. Hanging out down the yard with me is reward enough for my dog and I can assure you she is never "flat".





A) I can't tell from that distance
B) It's a collie, they're usually happy out ?

 

[some show]

I love giving my dog treats/praise to learn basic commands. It makes him happy and engaged, which makes me happy, and as he's a greyhound he absolutely wouldn't deign to learn anything if there wasn't food involved anyway. We don't do much 'learning' now he's 10 but I used to just use portions of his actual meals during the training, so it's not like he was getting fat off hundreds of treats.

 

[marmalade76]

A) I can't tell from that distance
B) It's a collie, they're usually happy out ?

Exactly. She's not into toys, either, but does enjoy exercising squirrels & rabbits.

 

[ArklePig]

I love rewarding my dog too, sometimes it's a treat, sometimes it's her favourite toy. I want her to want to learn, and have a nice time. And she is super motivated it she suspects Mr Bear is somewhere on my person, or even better, a squeaky ball. Making her happy and engaged makes me happy. And when she's with other dogs she still listens to me. I suspect I'm 'fluffier' than some on here though ?

And to be fair, modern dog training isn't fluffy, it's science.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I love giving my dog treats/praise to learn basic commands. It makes him happy and engaged, which makes me happy, and as he's a greyhound he absolutely wouldn't deign to learn anything if there wasn't food involved anyway. We don't do much 'learning' now he's 10 but I used to just use portions of his actual meals during the training, so it's not like he was getting fat off hundreds of treats.

I am chuckling and scratching my head at how else I would have trained our Greyhound without food. I just picture us looking blankly at each other for a while until she decided to go off for a nap!

 

[some show]

I am chuckling and scratching my head at how else I would have trained our Greyhound without food. I just picture us looking blankly at each other for a while until she decided to go off for a nap!

And people say they're not clever!

 

[honetpot]

I suspect the lady was a different kind of person to most multiple dog walkers these days. (I did not say all). The ones round here seem to do it as a job to fit round the kids and for cash. Which is fine with the cockerpoos and the mini schnauzers and the JRTs but not so good with the big ones.

Having just taken on a dog that is not well socialised and the increase of multiple dog households, dogs are not getting the amount of training they got even five years ago. Added to the fact people are now returning to work leaving dogs with walkers which are probably less desensitised to life than they would have been, I think two, to do the job safely and properly is enough.
We have one pro walker who has a large van, and I have seen her out with six large dogs at a time, with a helper. If you have ever seen a proper dog fight, I can not see how this is safe. It is not usually the dog you have control of but a dog off the lead who starts the fight.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

And people say they're not clever!

I used to think that too but now I think maybe she's just an independent gal who knows her worth and doesn't get out of bed for less than cheese or cooked meat ?

 

[paddy555]

We have one pro walker who has a large van, and I have seen her out with six large dogs at a time, with a helper. If you have ever seen a proper dog fight, I can not see how this is safe. It is not usually the dog you have control of but a dog off the lead who starts the fight.

It's not safe, it's ludicrous. I'm not up to date with the lady who died and what happened to the dogs (ie will they be PTS) but surely the customer should now be asking themselves if I let them walk my dog it is going to be safely at home when I get back from work and not in police custody because there is very little margin for error with that number of dogs and even less with larger breeds.

 

[PippiPony]

We have one pro walker who has a large van, and I have seen her out with six large dogs at a time, with a helper. If you have ever seen a proper dog fight, I can not see how this is safe. It is not usually the dog you have control of but a dog off the lead who starts the fight.

We have one round here who take 6 large dogs in her van ON HER OWN (!) and runs them off lead round our footpaths. I know she doesn't pick up properly by the sheer amount of mess there is left behind. It's not fun when i meet her out with my 2 on lead greyhounds, and hers charge up to my girls. and i get the "oh it's ok they're friendly!" whilst my girls (not so much now as we've worked very hard on their training) were turning themselves inside out. I'm afraid I have been known to "discourage" them from sniffing my girls butts with the toe of my boot.

 

[CorvusCorax]

A local guy has just set himself up as a dog walker and is advertising one spot left on a group forest walk at the weekend. Said forest HIVING at the weekends, is full of fallow deer, has a wildfowl reserve on one side and a bird of prey sanctuary on the other.

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG.

 

[SilverLinings]

There are obvious places round here where the professional walkers gravitate; areas of off-road walking with parking available such as woodland or NT land. At these places I have never seen a dog-walker get into/out of one of these vans with fewer than six dogs, and on more than one occasion I have seen 8+. The walkers always appear to be on their own (the only human), so that is a LOT of dogs per person, all running riot.

There may be commercial walkers I see on my walks with fewer dogs (I accept that there may actually be plenty who only walk 1-4 dogs at one time), but it is only when getting in/out of branded transport that I can tell if they are a dog walker or not, so it seems that walkers handling <5 dogs would be uncommon here.

I wonder whether the recent fatal incident will encourage more dog owners to ask their walkers how many dogs are taken out at once; whether commercial dog walkers will actually start to advertise that they take out smaller numbers as a positive thing; and whether insurance companies will start capping numbers they will cover commercial dog walkers for?

 

[Tiddlypom]

The first professional dog walker's insurance policy that came up on my google search allows up to 6 dogs to be walked at a time ?.

• Dog walking & including off-lead walking

This policy will insure you to walk a maximum of 6 dogs at any one time. This automatically includes walking dogs off lead however we do recommenced that you seek the owners written consent.

 

[SilverLinings]

The first professional dog walker's insurance policy that came up on my google search allows up to 6 dogs to be walked at a time ?.

• Dog walking & including off-lead walking

This policy will insure you to walk a maximum of 6 dogs at any one time. This automatically includes walking dogs off lead however we do recommenced that you seek the owners written consent.

I wonder whether companies might start reducing the numbers, or making it more expensive the more dogs you want to walk at a time? Six seems a lot when it is likely to be a mixed group who don't necessarily know each other, and they are being walked in a public place.

I do now try to avoid riding in areas the commercial walkers use as unfortunately they rarely seem to have any control over the dogs once they've been set free from the van. The fact that in the recent incident the dogs also chased horses and hurt another dog walker must be putting the wind up insurers as it looks like more than one fatality (or very serious injury to the other walker and the rider who fell) could have been the outcome.

 

[druid]

I often "walk" up to 9 or 10 at once. They are at heel though off lead. I don't let them run about, they don't interact with other dogs and they rarely meet the public except when working/trialling/showing.

 

[Moobli]

There’s a lovely large wood with a small car park where I used to regularly walk my dogs. The professional dog walkers found out about it and the car park would frequently be filled with sign written vans and dog sh*t all over the path for the first hundred yards or so. We got accosted by loose, out of control dogs once too often and so decided not to go there anymore.
In more recent times, the car park was closed to the public and the track up to it gated off. Hallelujah! ?. I know a secret spot to park one car and the woodland is now only used sparingly again and no PDW so I’m a very happy person.

 

[maisie06]

There’s a lovely large wood with a small car park where I used to regularly walk my dogs. The professional dog walkers found out about it and the car park would frequently be filled with sign written vans and dog sh*t all over the path for the first hundred yards or so. We got accosted by loose, out of control dogs once too often and so decided not to go there anymore.
In more recent times, the car park was closed to the public and the track up to it gated off. Hallelujah! ?. I know a secret spot to park one car and the woodland is now only used sparingly again and no PDW so I’m a very happy person.

Same around here. local nature reserve first100yds full of dog crap from these so called professional walkers...I would rather kennel my lot and nip home at lunch when I'm working than allow a stranger to walk them...

 

[P3LH]

I'm sorry you feel like that. For my part I am simply totally fed up with loose walker's dogs chasing my horses when I am riding, I was especially pissed off with the one that allowed their staffie's teeth to become locked around the horse's hind leg and then they were unable to open them. Fed up with walkers on cycle/walking tracks allowing their dogs to run straight across me as they barely look up from their screens, fed up with same walkers allowing their dogs to latch onto my jeans or my leg. Fed up with taking my large dog out double leaded and made to sit at the very edge of a path, pavement or track whilst a walker lets their small dog run up to him with the words "my dog likes big dogs?
That makes a change from the walkers telling me, when their dog is underneath my horse,"my dog likes horses"

I'm afraid I am totally fed up with a large number of people with their dogs out of control in public places. If you want a dog adopt some responsibility for it. I don't want your dog, please keep it away from me and my animals.

ETA and to add to the moan fed up with retractable leads. For heaven's sake put it in a proper lead not running around and across everyone.

Although I echo many of your frustrations about these kinds of idiots, and often vent about them on this forum - I struggle to see how this is as a result of someone owning/walking more than three?


I have three. 9 out of 10 times I am walking all three together. Mine are happy to stay in lead, and march off through fields, parks, lanes etc with me and mind their own business. It is very often I acquire a fourth dog on said walks, who’s owner insists it must be off lead and has no control over, who will pester mine for however long it takes the owner to rejoin it - whilst my three dogs continue stomping on without even batting an eyelid. I fail to see how me only walking two of my three, would make life any simpler if I’m honest

 

[P3LH]

I believe dogs operate a hierarchy, I don't believe they think that humans are dogs too.
I believe dogs need good leadership but there's a difference between a good motivational boss and a boss who just acts like a prick and flogs you to death.

A truly dominant dog barely takes others under his notice. They're not that important.

Agree. I also think dogs are better at figuring people out, via repetitive behaviour of said people, than we give them credit for. Mine act quite differently for different people - eg are PITA for others but blissful angels for yours truly. They 100% know who then can get away with stuff with, and they know what the expectations of them are IMO. I don’t have any squabbling between them, any incessant barking at things like the door etc, or any general ‘push off I’m ignoring you’ yet OH and Mum who is assigned dog sitter (through choice - she likes having part time dogs) certainly put up with mischief and nonsense. Which is the operative time, put up with.

I also have a dog I would describe as a truly dominant dog. Over time I have built a mutually respectful, but still deeply questioned, relationship with her which can get her to agree (rather than do in a ‘thou must’ say) to what I expect of her/ask of her. This is the same dog that ignores everyone else in her life, even if they were to work at either end of the spectrum of being super firm and trying to demand defeeebxe or being super positive with endless treats. She isn’t really motivated by anything consistently and even when using treats, with most people she would simply snatch it out their hands and walk away if they asked her to do anything. I can actually motivate her to do things - SOMETIMES.

I know a lot of dog trainers, some decent ones, and let two experiment with her when she was about 18 months. She was a novelty to many I knew being a Pembroke corgi, as they are notoriously stubborn and headstrong - and I had told everyone how she took this and stretched it to the maxim.

One believes exclusively in positive reinforcement, lots of treats and noisy toys - and not challenging poor behaviour. She tends to work with pet dogs to some success. One believes more in firm expectations and repetition - I would describe as fair but perhaps boring, he is primarily a gun dog trainer either working or working types as pets (when owners are struggling with needing a dog asbo). Neither method worked, neither could get her to even come over to them to attempt to do any trining. She blanked both of them and pottered around the paddock doing her own thing without even looking at them. The very positive person was crouched down about a foot away from her; throwing treats on the ground and speaking very lovely in a high pitched voice which I’m sure many dogs would love - and she continued to sniff every individual blade of grass. Dogs eh.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I fail to see how me only walking two of my three, would make life any simpler if I’m honest

Whilst yours may well be perfectly well behaved, it's when things go wrong that a max of two dogs per adult is much wiser. Say a loose dog comes in and starts attacking your dogs, and a multi dog fight ensues - I hope it doesn't ever happen to you but it does happen all too often - then two of your own dogs to deal with in the melee are quite enough.

 

[ycbm]

I actually think dogs do see us as part of the pack, scientifically disproven or not.

I actually think dominance is a thing in horses, too. I've seen enough of it in the horses I've owned. I think a lot of this sort of discussion is just quibbling about terminology.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I agree that some dogs are very good at sussing humans out.
I have to leave very explicit instructions with my eldest dog, if he perceives a person is in any way intimidated or nervous around him, he really throws his weight around.

He is not dominant, he is an opportunist/knows how to improve his position.
If he was a human you'd say he was a bully or had small man syndrome.

At the kennels where I currently leave him, he is the proprietor's favourite.
At a place I left him in 2015, where the owner laughed at my stipulations and said I was spoiling him/worrying about nothing, I was told he was never allowed back when I collected him....

 

[asmp]

And the BBC reports things like this ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-64227620

 

[Pearlsasinger]

And the BBC reports things like this ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-64227620

 

[P3LH]

Whilst yours may well be perfectly well behaved, it's when things go wrong that a max of two dogs per adult is much wiser. Say a loose dog comes in and starts attacking your dogs, and a multi dog fight ensues - I hope it doesn't ever happen to you but it does happen all too often - then two of your own dogs to deal with in the melee are quite enough.

And the above has happened, quite badly last year. If I didn’t feel I could control a situation, to the best of my ability, I wouldn’t put myself or them in it personally eg I wouldn’t walk the three together.

 

[Moobli]

I agree that dogs have a hierarchy, especially among those that live together in multiples, but in my experience it’s also fluid, in that there isn’t one “top dog” in all situations. I don’t believe dogs see humans in that set up but mine definitely respect me as the boss/leader/she who must be obeyed. I do reward my dogs when training new things (a mix of toys, food, praise) or for a job well done.

 

[twiggy2]

I agree that dogs have a hierarchy, especially among those that live together in multiples, but in my experience it’s also fluid, in that there isn’t one “top dog” in all situations. I don’t believe dogs see humans in that set up but mine definitely respect me as the boss/leader/she who must be obeyed. I do reward my dogs when training new things (a mix of toys, food, praise) or for a job well done.

I find different dogs value different things, Belle is in charge here, if she wants it she has it but there is not much she is bothered about, she is very level headed, Reeva makes a lot of noise and values a few things but she doesn't have the clout Belle does and the other mostly ignore her, everyone else just sort of fits in, the dogs occasionally get a bit pushy with each other but Sam is defiantly top out of them, Cap and Louis still need to work out who is who.