What would you do? (be nice please)

[Curragh]

Hi,

I'm more of a lurker than a poster, but here goes....

I own a 12 year old ISH, who was diagnosed with navicular 2 years ago, tried bare foot and all that jazz. I now have him on bute (1 a day) with advice from the vet, I only hack him quietly but lately I have found he's deteriorating and hasn't felt good. I have never felt happy working him on bute and do not want him on any more just to hack out.

So, in an ideal world I'd retire him, but while I have him, I can't afford another horse. Plus the fact I do not want to just hack out, I'd rather compete too.


So...what would you do?!

 

[Spring Feather]

So...what would you do?!

I'd keep him as a pasture ornament but I have lots of land so I'm able to keep my old retired horses till they pop their clogs.

 

[AmyMay]

I see no problem in having a horse on two Bute a day - if it keeps them comfortable. It's about quality of life, not quantity.

If the horse still enjoys going out and about for a quiet hack, then I would certainly up his Bute (Danillon actually).

But you also need to speak to your vet and farrier about further shoeing options etc.

But, if you don't want to hack and can't afford another horse you have two options, look for 'rides' to complete, or have the horse put down in order to buy another one.

But what would I do?? Keep him. I've had 3 put down - never again.

 

[Decision_Tree]

I would consider three options:

1. Retirement livery - not sure if any cheaper than normal but worth a look IMO.
2. Ask around to see if anyone local to you and that you trust is looking for a field companion, I would however offer to pay for some of his keep as it costs alot to keep a big horse vs a pony.
3. Consider PTS.

 

[BBH]

I bought my own land when my horse horse retired through lameness, he lived another 14 yrs. I was and still am of the view I feel uncomfortable putting a paddock sound animal down for what seems like a lottery in that if its their misfortune to be owned by person A they get PTS yet a luckier horse with person B gets to live.

I'm a real advocate of life is sacrosanct until they tell us when they are ready.

 

[rhino]

I have a big pampered pet (although not on painkillers and sound) and ride/compete for other people, is that an option for you?

 

[*hic*]

Mine are retired at home.

 

[MissMincePie&Brandy]

I have a young retired one, but I also have another horse, so that's no help to you. Knowing how delicate my retired horse is, there is no way he'd cope on a retirement farm or in a blood bank, etc so if there ever came a time where I wasn't able to keep him, then I would consider PTS, but I'm not in that position, so I don't really know if I'd go through with it - I'd probably starve first .

However, I agree with Amy May, there's no harm in upping the bute. I had one of my old horses on 2 butes a day for years with no ill effects from the drug.

Just a thought...sometimes farriers tend to dress barefoot horses as if they are being shod, which only causes sore footedness. We had this problem. I highly rate my own farrier, except for barefoot trimming. Perhaps looking for a specialist barefoot trimmer who comes with recommendations would be worth a try?

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

at the risk of being shot.... can you loan him out as a companion (to someone you know well) if you pay for his medical bills? It may be that when he is out of sight any difficult decision is easier to make- or it could be that on more bute and no work he can be maintained pain free?

 

[Rowreach]

in that if its their misfortune to be owned by person A they get PTS yet a luckier horse with person B gets to live.

.

Hmmm or vice versa I have a client whose horse was diagnosed with navicular two years ago, she's tried all sorts to keep him hacking sound, but he too is deteriorating rapidly to the point where even unhorsey people are commenting, but she won't do the right thing by him and have him put down because, she told me, of what people might think

OP it is your decision and yours alone. If upping his bute helps, then try that. If you are not happy with that or if, as you say, he is deteriorating, there is nothing wrong with having him put down. There are far too many horses which in my opinion are kept alive because of the sensibilities of the owners rather than for the benefit of the horse.

I wouldn't even have a problem with you putting him down on economic grounds.

And before I get jumped on for being hard hearted and callous, I've got two retirees, one old and one young, so I don't just see them as instantly expendible when they can no longer work

 

[smellsofhorse]

Tinsel trouble, I agree with you.
He could have a good life as a companion or light hack for someone.

Just offer to pay something towards his keep or vet bills etc.

As for Bute, as said it quality not quantity of life, so up it if he needs it.

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

As for Bute, as said it quality not quantity of life, so up it if he needs it.

I interpreted that as a short but sweet life... In the OP's position I would have a word with the vet now and say that you are aware that he is deteriorating but in the event of the extra bute not working please can you guide me through other options- including being pts- today.

I would do that now so when/if the time comes you know the options and it will be less traumatic for everyone.

 

[Hedwards]

I'm in a very similar boat, although have already decided my mare is retired.

I have been riding on and off a couple of other horses on the yard as and when its been offered, however tonight I'm going to try another, and if I like him I will be 'part' loaning him from his owner, with contribution towards costs, but doing all chores 7 days a week - owner has 3 horses and has neither the time or money for all 3, but doesnt want to get rid of them - this should hopefully mean she can keep all her horses, ride the one i'm planning to loan if she wants to, but doesnt have the worry of commiting the time to sort him out and has a reduction in costs.

Its a rubbish feeling I know, wondering what you are going to do, but there will be people out there who will be looking for someone like you to help them out.

 

[Spring Feather]

There are far too many horses which in my opinion are kept alive because of the sensibilities of the owners rather than for the benefit of the horse.

I am finding more and more that I see the exact opposite of this. I've seen a lot of people in recent years having their horses put down to suit their pockets and to satisfy their wish for having a sound riding horse. They aren't able to afford 2 horses so the ailing one gets the bullet. If the horse is really sick or in pain then yes of course an owner should do the right thing but I've seen a lot of people make up rubbish and try to tell others how sick their horse is when in fact the horse isn't and could happily wander around a field for a few more years. Whatever reasons anyone gives for having their horses put down is up to them but I think they should at least have the power of conviction and not tell porky pies for why they are having their horses killed.

Sorry OP it's not my intention to make you to feel bad, I'm just saying what I've seen off late. You have to do what rests easy on your conscience and do what you know in your heart is best for your horse. If PTS is the best thing for the horse then do it. If you know this is for you and not the best thing for the horse and you go ahead and have the horse PTS then that's your decision to live with.

 

[cob&onion]

Could you not find grass livery for him? would he live out?

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

I am finding more and more that I see the exact opposite of this. I've seen a lot of people in recent years having their horses put down to suit their pockets and to satisfy their wish for having a sound riding horse. They aren't able to afford 2 horses so the ailing one gets the bullet. If the horse is really sick or in pain then yes of course an owner should do the right thing but I've seen a lot of people make up rubbish and try to tell others how sick their horse is when in fact the horse isn't and could happily wander around a field for a few more years. Whatever reasons anyone gives for having their horses put down is up to them but I think they should at least have the power of conviction and not tell porky pies for why they are having their horses killed.

Personally I would feel guilty in putting to sleep a horse that didn't need it and was just old or wonkey, but navicular is a degenerative disease and I would feel more comfortable putting to sleep just before the pain in not manageable- than when the horse is in constant discomfort.

Of course this is easy to say when you're sat at a keyboard and not facing the issue or dealing with the emotions!

 

[whisp&willow]

i would just retire him and have him as a field ornament... but we have the space to do so.

if you really cant keep him in a retirement role, then i would be looking at finding him a new home as a companion.

i do not agree with having horses put down just because they cant do the jobs you want them to do any more. (not saying this is the case with you OP! ) i think that as long as they are field sound then they should be allowed to live out their days untill they are no longer comfortable.

 

[noodle_]

honestly....


if you cant afford to keep him - - put to sleep


in this economy there are tons of free (sound/healthy)ridden horses to go.....far too many dodgy dealers out there to make a quick buck - i wouldnt ever put my horse out on loan with navicular/health issues

 

[PaddyMonty]

I'm about to become unpopular in some quarters but in your situation I would PTS.
Sorry but I just dont get the unfair to the horse thinking.
The horse has no idea it is going to be or has been put down. Only the owner knows that. Really cant see all those horses sitting on clouds shouting "the barstweard had me put down"
As long as the owner can handle the emotional distress of taking this option then it is one that should be considered. Do not underestimate the emotional effect it will have on you though.

Sure we would all love the luxury of being able to retire a horse and still afford a replacement but that isn't where most horse owners are at. Take the human emotion and thinking out of the equation and look at it from the horses perspective.

 

[Wagtail]

It's a very difficult and very common situation, I'm afraid. Personally, I see no difference between a dog and a horse in so far as I will keep them until it is their time to go. In the past I have got it wrong and kept going when really the animal should be PTS. I retired my girl two years ago after a shoulder injury meant that she could no longer be ridden, but after 6 months of rehab she became pasture sound and has been very happily so until very recently when she developed laminitis. I do not know what the outcome will be of this, but I will not let her suffer. So far she seems to be recovering, so fingers crossed. I bought a replacement for her as soon as I realised she would never be ridden again. 3 weeks later he was kicked in the field and had to have a bone chip removed from his leg. So that cost me £3k. Then I was just bringing him back into work when he was diagnosed with kissing spine and is currently recouperating from having 5 spines removed (another £4k - this time insured, so only £500 in excess). My point is that even though it is not certain whether he will ever be ridden again, he too has a home for life, even though it means that I do not have my own horse to ride. If you are a competent rider it is always possible to find other horses to ride for people at little or no cost. So, OP, what would I do in your shoes? Keep him as a field ornament, or have him PTS if he is actually suffering and not paddock sound. I agree with the others, there is nothing wrong with upping the bute so long as it makes him comfortable. It is better than death.

 

[Spring Feather]

but navicular is a degenerative disease and I would feel more comfortable putting to sleep just before the pain in not manageable- than when the horse is in constant discomfort.

Me too.

Of course this is easy to say when you're sat at a keyboard and not facing the issue or dealing with the emotions!

Not really. We all have actual experience so we're drawing from that. One of my horses was diagnosed with navicular 6 years ago. Wrong diagnosis I'm afraid and my horse is still alive and well and totally sound and has been for years. At the time when I heard the diagnosis I was so upset and this horse is incredibly dear to me so I persevered with further vet investigations and the navicular diagnosis was unfounded. The horse actually had a really trivial issue which I managed correctly and all came well. This may not be the case with the OPs horse however, I'm just relaying my story of my horse

 

[noodle_]

It's a very difficult and very common situation, I'm afraid. Personally, I see no difference between a dog and a horse in so far as I will keep them until it is their time to go. In the past I have got it wrong and kept going when really the animal should be PTS. I retired my girl two years ago after a shoulder injury meant that she could no longer be ridden, but after 6 months of rehab she became pasture sound and has been very happily so until very recently when she developed laminitis. I do not know what the outcome will be of this, but I will not let her suffer. So far she seems to be recovering, so fingers crossed. I bought a replacement for her as soon as I realised she would never be ridden again. 3 weeks later he was kicked in the field and had to have a bone chip removed from his leg. So that cost me £3k. Then I was just bringing him back into work when he was diagnosed with kissing spine and is currently recouperating from having 5 spines removed (another £4k - this time insured, so only £500 in excess). My point is that even though it is not certain whether he will ever be ridden again, he too has a home for life, even though it means that I do not have my own horse to ride. If you are a competent rider it is always possible to find other horses to ride for people at little or no cost. So, OP, what would I do in your shoes? Keep him as a field ornament, or have him PTS if he is actually suffering and not paddock sound. I agree with the others, there is nothing wrong with upping the bute. It is better than death.

i disagree

coming from someone who's horse cost over 10,000 in vets bills (not insured.) I wouldnt ever do it again

We cant all afford to keep horses as field ornaments - ive learnt my lesson -

I wouldnt ever put an oldie to sleep - i would let them live out their days - however if something like navicular and its a definate "i cant afford" then iom its totally different.

 

[Mrs B]

I'm about to become unpopular in some quarters but in your situation I would PTS.
Sorry but I just dont get the unfair to the horse thinking.
The horse has no idea it is going to be or has been put down. Only the owner knows that. Really cant see all those horses sitting on clouds shouting "the barstweard had me put down"
As long as the owner can handle the emotional distress of taking this option then it is one that should be considered. Do not underestimate the emotional effect it will have on you though.

Sure we would all love the luxury of being able to retire a horse and still afford a replacement but that isn't where most horse owners are at. Take the human emotion and thinking out of the equation and look at it from the horses perspective.

Agree with PaddyMonty/Juno.

 

[Wagtail]

i disagree

coming from someone who's horse cost over 10,000 in vets bills (not insured.) I wouldnt ever do it again

We cant all afford to keep horses as field ornaments - ive learnt my lesson -

I wouldnt ever put an oldie to sleep - i would let them live out their days - however if something like navicular and its a definate "i cant afford" then iom its totally different.

But bute is not expensive.

 

[charlie76]

There is nothing wrong with putting a lame horse down! Why do people always get on there high horse about it. Some of us are not in the position to keep horses as 'field ornaments' for the rest of their lives and in fact some horses do not thrive on this life style any way.
I had a horse that had navicular. I spent £5k and well over a year trying every known way to help him and he was still lame. I took his shoes off and was lucky enough that I had a field to put him in, I said I would give him a year, a year to the day I decided I put him down. Yes, he could have stayed in the field forever but I knew that horse inside out and he was not happy not in work and left out, he lost the shine in his coat and had a sad look in his eye.
If you choose to PTS that is nothing to feel guilty about.

 

[Merlin11]

I have a companion horse which I look after for someone and he has navicular. He is not ridden but used as a field companion. He has been lame about 3 times in the 3 years I have had him and is not on bute. He is turned out all the time with access to stables and this seems to help. I also recently put him on NAF magic and he has not been lame since. I don't think he could do much ridden work but he still has a full and happy life and does not appear to be in any pain. If his lameness is difficult to manage maybe you could fine a good home for him as a companion. It would need to be someone you trust though. I must admit he is a lot of work compared to my other hardy types but it is rewarding to give him a good home in his old age.
I am lucky as I have a few fields and can keep a few horses.

 

[Wagtail]

Yes, he could have stayed in the field forever but I knew that horse inside out and he was not happy not in work and left out, he lost the shine in his coat and had a sad look in his eye.
If you choose to PTS that is nothing to feel guilty about.

When horses are retired they often do not get the grooming they would otherwise have done, hence they often lose some shine to their coats. With all due respect, I think it is anthropomorphising to say that a horse looks sad because it is not in work. It is our interpretation, not what the horse is feeling. Relaxed horses that have been retired and stress free will often not have quite such a spark in their eyes, but much of that is because they are unstressed. They are just being a horse. Horses don't care if they are not competing or they are not fulfilling their potential. It is the same when people sell a horse 'because I am not good enough and don't want to do the things the horse is capable of'. The horse doesn't care that it has the ability to go round Badminton but is being used as a hack.

But regarding feeling guilty, that again is a subjective thing. No, you should not feel guilty. Your horse, your decision. If you are capable of having a paddock sound horse PTS, then you will not feel guilty. If you do, then it was the wrong decision for you.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Wagtail - Equally the horse doesn't care that its been put down. It doesn't even know it has.

 

[Merlin11]

Sorry I meant NAf Superflex and not Magic. The NAF magic is for our super spooky Irish Draught. Think I am keeping NAF in business with all the supplements I buy!

 

[Wagtail]

Wagtail - Equally the horse doesn't care that its been put down. It doesn't even know it has.

So if someone is shot in the back it would not matter because they did not know it was going to happen? The person would not care because they would not know it was going to happen...

Of course human life is different (in human eyes) to animals, but the logic in the argument is the same.