What's happening on Dartmoor?

[paddy555]

Again, the specific aim of the Blean project is comparing the effects of cattle and bison on woodland. They have English longhorns (and Exmoors) on a different part of the woodland.

but why? What is the point of bison on woodland. We can never let them loose in our very small country. If you think of the problems and deaths with walkers, their dogs and cows no way could we have bison.
So we have bison on what is a man made tourist park with lots of fencing to protect them. Little more than a zoo. The cost of fencing is enormous.
All for half a dozen bison.Surely if we want to look at the habits of bison we only have to look to the US.

1200 acres is very small. Cattle are a lot easier and cheaper to fence.

 

[paddy555]

Spot on lol!! A few of those angry black devils on the path to the summit of Pen Y Fan yesterday would have made a positive difference both to people's fitness and probably the numbers...https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/gallery/busy-scenes-pen-y-fan-26656857. As for those folk who are falling into gullies whilst looking for Pokemons and/or allowing their dogs to chase sheep/ponies/highland calves/ground nesting birds a herd of Welsh Black Cattle would probably be instructional. Sigh.

how do people especially tourists fit into rewilding? If we look at Dartmoor do we have conservation/rewilding areas that are out of bounds to them? We had 3000 wild campers and the like march onto the middle of the moor in protest over the (lack of) wild camping ban. I'm not sure from a conservation POV that was great.
If a single inch is put out of bounds to them they complain. It is their right to go where they want, do what they want and leave whatever mess they want.

 

[cobgoblin]

but why? What is the point of bison on woodland. We can never let them loose in our very small country. If you think of the problems and deaths with walkers, their dogs and cows no way could we have bison.
So we have bison on what is a man made tourist park with lots of fencing to protect them. Little more than a zoo. The cost of fencing is enormous.
All for half a dozen bison.Surely if we want to look at the habits of bison we only have to look to the US.

1200 acres is very small. Cattle are a lot easier and cheaper to fence.

They seem to have put the bison in there to kill the conifers that the forestry commission planted.
I'm sure the forestry commission could have removed them much more efficiently. What happens after they are gone? I can't see the bison will allow broadleaf trees to grow.

1200 acres is ridiculously small, it's also in a fairly heavily populated area. In fact , Kent in general is too densely used for this sort of nonsense. Let's face it, our highly populated little island just isn't suitable for wilding that includes large feral animals or any predators that we don't already have.

 

[palo1]

how do people especially tourists fit into rewilding? If we look at Dartmoor do we have conservation/rewilding areas that are out of bounds to them? We had 3000 wild campers and the like march onto the middle of the moor in protest over the (lack of) wild camping ban. I'm not sure from a conservation POV that was great.
If a single inch is put out of bounds to them they complain. It is their right to go where they want, do what they want and leave whatever mess they want.

YES. Exactly. And at the same time as demanding that ancient (if not perfect from a biodiversity POV) landscapes are rewilded, access is increasingly demanded and contested. Access that requires, inevitably, many vehicles, items of plastic/barbeques, domestic dogs, possibly tents and roads, pathways etc so that access can be fair and then, of course, shops, parking etc etc are needed. The two cannot work together in anything other than a brainfart! In the Brecon Beacons the erosion of natural tracks from the numbers of walkers, mountain bikers etc have required helicopter loads of stone to be acquired and dropped on the hills. I understand the need to minimise erosion and encourage folk to use a hard track but there has been great ill feeling over this; in part because it changes the nature of the place but also because of the enormous cost to provide access yet without any limitations or conditions on that access.

My OH and our family and friends have been treated, on occasion, like a tourist attraction with many people wanting to photograph and film us riding in parts of the NP. It is a horrible feeling and never used to be like that. Polite requests not to take pictures have resulted in really horrible, rude and entitled responses about 'public spaces/access/rights'. It is difficult. Ideas about rewilding do not really include demands for unlimited, unconditional access I don't think; unless traditional ways of life are to be commoditised as part of the 'rewilded' experience. I have no idea how NPs will work this all out. The fact is that the need for climate action, rewilding projects and nature restoration really need people, all of us, to buy less, drive less, use less and do less and that does not fit with any kind of tourism or any kind of growth/capitalist economy.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

how do people especially tourists fit into rewilding? If we look at Dartmoor do we have conservation/rewilding areas that are out of bounds to them? We had 3000 wild campers and the like march onto the middle of the moor in protest over the (lack of) wild camping ban. I'm not sure from a conservation POV that was great.
If a single inch is put out of bounds to them they complain. It is their right to go where they want, do what they want and leave whatever mess they want.

Look at Knepp, their tourists get taken round in vehicles to see the animals and land, then retire back to the campsite which has tracks cut into the heavily covered ragwort field......pretty yellow flowers....
Adjacent land owners are kicking up a stink as previously clean fields of theirs are now ragwort strewn, one who is completely organic is fighting a losing battle in having to dig out mountains of it. Despite him having wild margins and previously staying on top of it, it has flourished at Knepp....and seeding itself everywhere...

 

[cobgoblin]

My OH and our family and friends have been treated, on occasion, like a tourist attraction with many people wanting to photograph and film us riding in parts of the NP. It is a horrible feeling and never used to be like that. Polite requests not to take pictures have resulted in really horrible, rude and entitled responses about 'public spaces/access/rights'. It is difficult. Ideas about rewilding do not really include demands for unlimited, unconditional access I don't think; unless traditional ways of life are to be commoditised as part of the 'rewilded' experience. I have no idea how NPs will work this all out. The fact is that the need for climate action, rewilding projects and nature restoration really need people, all of us, to buy less, drive less, use less and do less and that does not fit with any kind of tourism or any kind of growth/capitalist economy.

Wellll....do you remember the savages in Brave New World ?

 

[palo1]

Look at Knepp, their tourists get taken round in vehicles to see the animals and land, then retire back to the campsite which has tracks cut into the heavily covered ragwort field......
Adjacent land owners are kicking up a stink as previously clean fields of theirs are now ragwort strewn, one who is completely organic is fighting a losing battle in having to dig out mountains of it. Despite him having wild margins and previously staying on top of it, it has flourished at Knepp....and seeding itself everywhere...

That is interesting; I knew that historically Knepp had issues with widespread ragwort and thistles - are those issues ongoing? I had thought that was something of a transitional phase. I know too that people will say that ragwort is vital for cinnabar moths but we are not, as a nation, short on either. The tourist experience at Knepp is almost exactly the model of 'funding' that George Monbiot and others think will replace farming incomes but when those experiences are available in every part of the UK I don't think people will be prepared to pay at that rate for the experience. And then how will those rewilded places work except than by competing to provide ever more extreme and exciting 'safaris'? Jurassic/Holocene Park here we come lol!!

 

[palo1]

Wellll....do you remember the savages in Brave New World ?

No, sadly you would need to explain that reference!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Palo, yes ongoing major weed issues (unless something has been done in the last 3 months).
Safaris operate regularly each day, on foot or in vehicles.

 

[cobgoblin]

No, sadly you would need to explain that reference!

OK, a very brief overview of BNW.

Most people lived in corporate controlled cities where they work to earn credits. The credits must be used to purchase products to keep their score up. They are also permanently drugged to keep them serene and happy. They do, however have tours into the wilds, where they can see the savages. These are those that stayed out of the cities and live off the land ie free.
It's a short book and worth reading.

 

[teapot]

Palo, yes ongoing major weed issues (unless something has been done in the last 3 months).
Safaris operate regularly each day, on foot or in vehicles.

It's quite the list too https://knepp.co.uk/safaris/ with some specifically aimed at the photography market.

Don't forget it can also be your wedding venue too!

 

[Goldenstar]

Sheep and goats have been here for circa 12000 years and some of the special breed sheep will have a role in conservation work I suspect the reluctance is ideological .

 

[cobgoblin]

It's quite the list too https://knepp.co.uk/safaris/ with some specifically aimed at the photography market.

Don't forget it can also be your wedding venue too!

So basically a diversified farm in the guise of a charity.

 

[palo1]

QUOTE="cobgoblin, post: 15179660, member: 90115"]
So basically a diversified farm in the guise of a charity.
[/QUOTE]

I do think some of the biodiversity gains at Knepp are excellent tbh but of course it has to be commoditised to work and I just don't think that it is a model that can be widely applied. On going, significant weeds are problematic too and that is disappointing to hear as I had thought Knepp had worked through that but if not, obviously there will be issues for neighbours.

 

[catkin]

Sheep and goats have been here for circa 12000 years and some of the special breed sheep will have a role in conservation work I suspect the reluctance is ideological .

Exactly. I find the argument of sheep not being a native species a bit hard to swallow (err, humans ain't native to these Isles either)
Dartmoor along with many other places has evidence of human habitation, along with sheep, ponies, cattle etc since prehistoric times. That's enough time for the species/breeds to fully adapt to their environments surely.
Also, how many historic market towns and cathedral cities were "built on wool" ? Sheep ain't some "modern" import

 

[palo1]

Exactly. I find the argument of sheep not being a native species a bit hard to swallow (err, humans ain't native to these Isles either)
Dartmoor along with many other places has evidence of human habitation, along with sheep, ponies, cattle etc since prehistoric times. That's enough time for the species/breeds to fully adapt to their environments surely.
Also, how many historic market towns and cathedral cities were "built on wool" ? Sheep ain't some "modern" import

These are facts that extreme re-wilders find hard to accept. There are and have been problems caused by overgrazing in places at times but I don't think that getting rid of sheep is remotely the 'answer' to our biodiversity problems, especially in the uplands. Sheep have co-existed in numbers with many, many other species for a very long time and could do again. But, circling back to a point upthread....people generally want to carry on shopping, travelling, consuming, polluting and cannot see their way round that; it is easier to look to the hills and see the problems there.

 

[paddy555]

the following is part of the comments from Ben Goldsmith. Chief sheep hater who wants rid of them.. Acorns of course are also toxic to horses.



Sheep are not native to Britain. They come from the arid hills of Asia Minor. They must suffer terribly soaked through and exposed on our windy, wet hillsides year-round. The fact that even English acorns are toxic to sheep says it all.

 

[cobgoblin]

How many oak trees are there on wet windy hillsides?

 

[ester]

Has he ever tried to soak a sheep through?

 

[catkin]

Hang on a minute - just about every living thing has things that are toxic to it.

 

[Spotherisk]

Has he ever tried to soak a sheep through?

That reminds me of dipping sheep and the three day hangover from the fumes!

 

[millikins]

Can someone explain how rewilding helps our native birds that depend on farmland and include most of the species that have suffered severe/catastrophic declines? Tree sparrows, linnets, bull finches, English partridge, lapwings, yellowhammers etc. etc. won't live in forests or grassland.

 

[palo1]

Can someone explain how rewilding helps our native birds that depend on farmland and include most of the species that have suffered severe/catastrophic declines? Tree sparrows, linnets, bull finches, English partridge, lapwings, yellowhammers etc. etc. won't live in forests or grassland.

I think the general understanding is that whilst there may be losses due to change in habitat, that the wider biodiversity gains will be worthwhile. For me, the possibility of losing some of our iconic species to large scale single methodology re-wilding is very troubling, even whilst I recognise the need for greater tree cover etc. I think that is a problem with ideology - that it is very difficult to move away from the fundamentals and allow for nuance and retraction at times.

 

[Caol Ila]

The Konik ponies are in the Insh Marshes, between Kingussie and Newtonmore. It's a big flood plain and marshier than your average Highland bog. Are the Koniks really more suited to grazing in it than Highlands or Shetlands? I have no idea.

These people think the native breeds should be used: https://www.rbst.org.uk/blog/rare-b...-using-native-ponies-for-conservation-grazing

Fin thinks Highlands are perfectly adapted to...this (the field has many, many drier places to graze. He chose to not be in any of them)

 

[palo1]

The Konik ponies are in the Insh Marshes, between Kingussie and Newtonmore. It's a big flood plain and marshier than your average Highland bog. Are the Koniks really more suited to grazing in it than Highlands or Shetlands? I have no idea.

These people think the native breeds should be used: https://www.rbst.org.uk/blog/rare-b...-using-native-ponies-for-conservation-grazing

Fin thinks Highlands are perfectly adapted to...this (the field has many, many drier places to graze. He chose to not be in any of them)

View attachment 111221

I wonder if part of the issue is that our native ponies have a range of abilities; not least that of spotting an opportunity for 'better' grazing; perhaps they are more wilfull or something/harder work for conservation groups to manage in some ways. Koniks seem very popular - perhaps for non-horse centric groups that is to do with temperament/manageability? No idea but using native species would seem more appropriate to many people.

 

[palo1]

the following is part of the comments from Ben Goldsmith. Chief sheep hater who wants rid of them.. Acorns of course are also toxic to horses.



Sheep are not native to Britain. They come from the arid hills of Asia Minor. They must suffer terribly soaked through and exposed on our windy, wet hillsides year-round. The fact that even English acorns are toxic to sheep says it all.

Only someone with no knowledge of sheep whatsoever would say those things (about them suffering from getting soaked). And to say them in public suggests he actually believes them (acorns are toxic - true but they are toxic to many things as that is how they have evolved to survive). That bodes well for environmental progress then...

 

[twiggy2]

I thought raw acorns are toxic to us to

 

[stangs]

People are not native to Britain. They come from the arid hillsides of Africa. They must suffer terribly soaked through and exposed on our windy, wet hillsides year-round. The fact that even English acorns are toxic to people says it all works just as well.

 

[palo1]

People are not native to Britain. They come from the arid hillsides of Africa. They must suffer terribly soaked through and exposed on our windy, wet hillsides year-round. The fact that even English acorns are toxic to people says it all works just as well.

Cool - we know the answer to our problems now then lol!! Not sure that the arid hillsides of Africa will welcome the unwanted peoples of the UK who would then suffer terribly from heat and unaccustomed sun.

 

[paddy555]

Only someone with no knowledge of sheep whatsoever would say those things (about them suffering from getting soaked). And to say them in public suggests he actually believes them (acorns are toxic - true but they are toxic to many things as that is how they have evolved to survive). That bodes well for environmental progress then...

there is right and wrong on both sides. The farmers are certainly not blameless. However if this is the negotiating position from one side then as you say it bodes well for progress. NOT.

We're in for a lousy day here, rain already started. Poor poor sheepies.