What's happening on Dartmoor?

[rabatsa]

How far back do rewilding people want the land to go? To get true rewilding you have to remove the source of most problems - people.

People have shaped the landscape for millenia. Hunter gatherers did the least damage but this island cannot go back that far, the amount of population reduction needed is impossible without a decent worldwide pandemic. A pandemic that would make covid and the black death look like childs play.

Maybe a super volcano or two, plus a meteor strike is necessary to give the planet a fresh start.

There has to be realism. Going back is not really an option, we need to look forward to how we can have nature and a well fed population. At the moment it does not seem as if we can have both in the long term.

Those advocating for rewilding at all costs are ignoring the future food shortages. There will be wars over this. There will be mass starvation. Maybe not in the next 10 years but certainly within the next 50 years if populations continue to grow.

I am fortunate as more than three quarters of my life has already happened, I should not live long enough to see what will become of things. Meanwhile I will look after my small acreage of old grassland, manage it with my few sheep and equines. Enjoy the wildlife that also resides on this plot of land. When it is taken from me I will go into a home in a town and live with my memories.

 

[cobgoblin]

I think it's all going to kick off in less than 10yrs re the food supply.
We have some proper nutters in control!

 

[teapot]

There is currently a ' consultation ' on a bill to allow gene editing of agricultural animals and crops. So don't be surprised when Dartmoor is taken over by sheep the size of hippos.

It’s been passed and into law already!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1638986850344882198s%3D46

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3167

 

[teapot]

As for rewilding, Knepp is within an hour of me and somewhere I find both interesting and baffling. It’s also inspired coastal farmer(s) to look at their land…

Knepp - Rewilding Pioneers

Knepp supports an abundance of rare species including turtle doves, nightingales & purple emperors. Enjoy a visit, stay, safari & produce.

knepp.co.uk

How Sussex farmers plan to rewild a nature-rich green corridor to the sea

Weald to Waves project aims to boost biodiversity by rewilding land as part of government ‘landscape recovery’ pilot scheme

www.theguardian.com

 

[palo1]

As for rewilding, Knepp is within an hour of me and somewhere I find both interesting and baffling. It’s also inspired coastal farmer(a) to look at their land…

Knepp - Rewilding Pioneers

Knepp supports an abundance of rare species including turtle doves, nightingales & purple emperors. Enjoy a visit, stay, safari & produce.

knepp.co.uk

How Sussex farmers plan to rewild a nature-rich green corridor to the sea

Weald to Waves project aims to boost biodiversity by rewilding land as part of government ‘landscape recovery’ pilot scheme

www.theguardian.com

I think I understand Knepp's history and imperatives for change. That estate was 'fortunate' too in that the owners were able to gain really quite funding for their rewilding projects. As a flagship project for that, they have benefitted too from intense interest and support from all sorts of different people and have a really successful approach it would seem. But when rewilding projects are 2 a penny and everyone is offering 'wild' meat, wildlife viewing, wilder camping/glamping the pie of funding and support will be less for everyone. And in all of those places there will be less food produced. That may or may not be a problem but it probably will lead to that sort of 'rewilded' meat being an absolute luxury, only for the elite whilst more ordinary budgets will have to pay for meat that is produced far, far more intensively. Alternatively, and which would be better would be for people to eat less meat of course. I think it is really interesting too to think about how you combine all of this with the kind of access and participation that people want; there really will have to be some difficult decisions made and again, environmental and animal welfare objectives are not always compatible. I know that Knepp and other projects have had some concerns about that. I think in the Netherlands there was a real outcry about the starving animals at a rewilding project after a difficult winter. You can't have it all but that is what people seem to want...

 

[onemoretime]

I'm afraid they will be coming for all farms, not just hill farms, unless they are stopped. At the moment they are picking off the easy meat.
Everyone is supposed to live in 15 minute cities in the future.

If that goes ahead there will be even more people off their trolleys!!

 

[Spotherisk]

I often wondered who owned that bit. Obviously everyone else does as well

I was hoping you might know!

 

[Spotherisk]

Just watching David Attenburgh in the Red Button, a spin off from Wild Isles, all about rejuvenating the Cairngorms, fascinating.

 

[Caol Ila]

Just watching David Attenburgh in the Red Button, a spin off from Wild Isles, all about rejuvenating the Cairngorms, fascinating.

I must find that. There's a lot of interesting stuff happening in the Cairngorms and a lot of old Caley pine forests which were not destroyed.

 

[palo1]

Just watching David Attenburgh in the Red Button, a spin off from Wild Isles, all about rejuvenating the Cairngorms, fascinating.

Yes, a charity called Trees for Life started out by trying (and succeeding largely!) in rejuvenating some of the old Caledonian Forest. It is a really inspiring charity and some very excellent work which has been on-going for a long time.

 

[Sanversera]

Just watching David Attenburgh in the Red Button, a spin off from Wild Isles, all about rejuvenating the Cairngorms, fascinating.

is it on iplayer? i cant find it.

 

[Spotherisk]

It’s on iplayer and is called Saving our wild isles.

 

[paddy555]

I am really interested to know how on earth they are going to be managed especially in that location. I really understand the value of this project in terms of species protection and I hope that it is successful and really informative. However it is a very, very small space for bison and people when they will inevitably mix. I think £1.5 million could have been spent on other things but all the same it is interesting and not proposed on a massive scale.

the money I gather came from a lottery fund so if there as further projects then hopefully they are also privately funded. It is an incredible amount for a very small number of bison.
The area is 1200 acres (per BBC) Presumably that all has to be bison fenced. Other than being very expensive bison fencing that distance is going to require a lot of resources. The manufacture of wire for example fixings and posts. Several places around us have had to be deer fenced with a very high cost and bison are going to need a lot stronger. Then there is the vehicle cost of moving the fencing materials into place and fencing plus maintenance and constant checking. All of that for a handful of bison.
The rewilding/conservation aspect on the one hand has to be offset by a high material cost on the other.
I see there is a visitor's centre so that is going to be encouraging even less benefit to the planet by car use.
Whilst interesting I cannot see the point of trying to introduce an animal which simply because of our very small country cannot live freely without constant fencing.

 

[palo1]

the money I gather came from a lottery fund so if there as further projects then hopefully they are also privately funded. It is an incredible amount for a very small number of bison.
The area is 1200 acres (per BBC) Presumably that all has to be bison fenced. Other than being very expensive bison fencing that distance is going to require a lot of resources. The manufacture of wire for example fixings and posts. Several places around us have had to be deer fenced with a very high cost and bison are going to need a lot stronger. Then there is the vehicle cost of moving the fencing materials into place and fencing plus maintenance and constant checking. All of that for a handful of bison.
The rewilding/conservation aspect on the one hand has to be offset by a high material cost on the other.
I see there is a visitor's centre so that is going to be encouraging even less benefit to the planet by car use.
Whilst interesting I cannot see the point of trying to introduce an animal which simply because of our very small country cannot live freely without constant fencing.

Yes, I do tend to agree with all of that; that this is a huge undertaking for a small amount of animals, even though I support species conservation. It sounds a bit like a vanity project tbh as there are many other projects that 1200 acres could support with fairly minimal infrastructure etc. I know that the project wants the bison for the impact they will make but I wonder if cattle could have a similar effect. Ho hum...

 

[reynold]

We have plenty of historic breeds in this country - horses, cattle, sheep, poultry. Rather than bison they could have used Highland cattle, White Park cattle, other breeds of cattle native to this country.

Seems to be a habit appearing of thinking that 'foreign' breeds are somehow 'better' than UK native breeds for conservation grazing - as in the Konig (sp?) ponies mentioned earlier in the thread.

Ironic reversal in that many other countries seem to value our native breeds.

 

[palo1]

We have plenty of historic breeds in this country - horses, cattle, sheep, poultry. Rather than bison they could have used Highland cattle, White Park cattle, other breeds of cattle native to this country.

Seems to be a habit appearing of thinking that 'foreign' breeds are somehow 'better' than UK native breeds for conservation grazing - as in the Konig (sp?) ponies mentioned earlier in the thread.

Ironic reversal in that many other countries seem to value our native breeds.

Oh the Konik horses/ponies scenario is so blooming irritating!! They are lovely of course but their teeth and way of eating really is not different to any of our natives so emphasising how 'special' they are really is insulting and daft. I agree that the lure of exotic breeds is clearly too much for some to resist but it makes some aspects of rewilding seem like such a fantasy that it is hard to relate to. Maybe one day Bison could be relevant but that surely is a VERY long way off and it would be better to focus on simple, low key projects first.

 

[Sanversera]

It’s on iplayer and is called Saving our wild isles.

thank you. found it.

 

[stangs]

Again, the specific aim of the Blean project is comparing the effects of cattle and bison on woodland. They have English longhorns (and Exmoors) on a different part of the woodland.

Re Koniks, I know of a RSPB reserve up in Scotland that initially tried Shetlands and Highlands on the marsh, and found that they didn't settle in the same way that the Koniks did. Yes, Koniks have been used where native breeds might have worked just as well - there's the Tarpan fairytale to blame for that, plus the general accessibility of Koniks - but they also do have their place, on wetlands, where other breeds may struggle. The recommendation is for Koniks to be used on wetlands in particular, whereas our native breeds should be primarily used for hills/moors/rocky terrain/peat [x].

 

[Goldenstar]

On ancient forests I recently visited the forest of Cree in the Galloway forest park is a small project run by the RSPB an organisation that I have to say I don’t agree with the whole time but Cree is a good example of a great small scale scheme .

 

[Spotherisk]

There are Highland cattle on Dartmoor, having been a tour guide for an upmarket hotel on Dartmoor the Highlands were much more of a draw than the ponies, especially for the American tourists. Quite demoralising when you’d like to tell them of the ‘red tide’ of South Devon cattle which used to be driven up onto the moor for the summer grazing many years back. There are also plenty of Galloway (Anton Coaker runs them, other farmers too), again not a Dartmoor breed but one that the tourists love.

 

[palo1]

Again, the specific aim of the Blean project is comparing the effects of cattle and bison on woodland. They have English longhorns (and Exmoors) on a different part of the woodland.

Re Koniks, I know of a RSPB reserve up in Scotland that initially tried Shetlands and Highlands on the marsh, and found that they didn't settle in the same way that the Koniks did. Yes, Koniks have been used where native breeds might have worked just as well - there's the Tarpan fairytale to blame for that, plus the general accessibility of Koniks - but they also do have their place, on wetlands, where other breeds may struggle. The recommendation is for Koniks to be used on wetlands in particular, whereas our native breeds should be primarily used for hills/moors/rocky terrain/peat [x].

I thought part of the point of the project was conservation of the European bison. I am not quite sure of the practical purpose of comparing cattle to bison when the likelihood of more widespread bison release is practically nil in my view. I suppose someone will find it interesting and it could yield useful results though. As for the Koniks, you may be right about marshland; I don't know but I do know of where 'special' breeds have replaced perfectly adequate local animals and that is infuriating and smacks of more of a love for exoticism than actual environmental integrity but it's probably not a big deal overall. At least people are trying. I just wish that it didn't look so curated in some projects if you know what I mean.

 

[palo1]

There are Highland cattle on Dartmoor, having been a tour guide for an upmarket hotel on Dartmoor the Highlands were much more of a draw than the ponies, especially for the American tourists. Quite demoralising when you’d like to tell them of the ‘red tide’ of South Devon cattle which used to be driven up onto the moor for the summer grazing many years back. There are also plenty of Galloway (Anton Coaker runs them, other farmers too), again not a Dartmoor breed but one that the tourists love.

There are some highlands and Galloways on the Welsh hills too and I think they do well. Welsh Black cattle would probably be fine but they can have absolutely filthy tempers so may not be best suited to areas populated with tourists lol.

 

[Spotherisk]

There are some highlands and Galloways on the Welsh hills too and I think they do well. Welsh Black cattle would probably be fine but they can have absolutely filthy tempers so may not be best suited to areas populated with tourists lol.

Having been chased by a small angry black heifer a few years ago (I was alone and no dogs!) I’d rather not have them here thanks!

 

[cobgoblin]

They have/ are putting exmoor ponies in with the bison and wild boar and long horn cattle in kent. Basically they are turning the woods into a sort of zoo, with multiple fences and trail paths.
The bison kill and fell trees, so I'm wondering what happens when they've cleared the woods.

Visiting West Blean & Thornden Woods | Kent Wildlife Trust

Welcome to a Wilder Blean! Please read about the changes happening to this West Blean and Thornden Woods Nature Reserve which might affect you and everyone visiting these woods as we celebrate the arrival of the UK's first wild bison herd.

www.kentwildlifetrust.org.uk

 

[ycbm]

Oh the Konik horses/ponies scenario is so blooming irritating!! They are lovely of course but their teeth and way of eating really is not different to any of our natives so emphasising how 'special' they are really is insulting and daft.

I was furious when they were shown in the David Attenborough series two weeks ago. They gave the impression they were native to Britain, not one word of the fact they are Polish imports!
.

 

[SilverLinings]

There are Highland cattle on Dartmoor, having been a tour guide for an upmarket hotel on Dartmoor the Highlands were much more of a draw than the ponies, especially for the American tourists. Quite demoralising when you’d like to tell them of the ‘red tide’ of South Devon cattle which used to be driven up onto the moor for the summer grazing many years back. There are also plenty of Galloway (Anton Coaker runs them, other farmers too), again not a Dartmoor breed but one that the tourists love.

It would maybe be a better and more workable compromise if NE, the DNP and the farmers agreed to keep regional stock on Dartmoor in appropriate numbers (appropriate for the welfare if the animals and for the moor) and work out better ways of managing them to encourage wild biodiversity. Effective removal of invasive plant species such as rhododendrons would help native plant species. It would also help if DNP worked out a better way of educating and 'managing' the locals and tourists who use the moor to reduce their impact (e.g. keeping people away from vulnerable areas for part of the year to enable them to recover)*.

*I realise that sadly this would probably be impossible without large numbers of wardens or similar policing the area. I have walked in several areas in Devon and Somerset over the last few years where there have been many prominent signs stating dogs must be on leads because of ground-nesting birds, and almost every dog I've seen is running free, chasing/disrupting/eating what it wants.

 

[SilverLinings]

There are some highlands and Galloways on the Welsh hills too and I think they do well. Welsh Black cattle would probably be fine but they can have absolutely filthy tempers so may not be best suited to areas populated with tourists lol.

I've corrected the second sentence for you, as it would be a very effective way of reducing the damage caused by humans in natural environments particularly those humans who go walking in unsuitable shoes, whilst spending the whole time looking at their phones

 

[reynold]

There are also native sheep breeds that thrive on saltmarsh land such as the Romney sheep. The Welsh salt marsh lamb produced is a premium meat as well.

I'm no expert on conservation grazing but maybe someone else can comment as to whether these sort of breeds could be used for grazing conservation wetlands?

 

[palo1]

I've corrected the second sentence for you, as it would be a very effective way of reducing the damage caused by humans in natural environments particularly those humans who go walking in unsuitable shoes, whilst spending the whole time looking at their phones

Spot on lol!! A few of those angry black devils on the path to the summit of Pen Y Fan yesterday would have made a positive difference both to people's fitness and probably the numbers...https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/gallery/busy-scenes-pen-y-fan-26656857. As for those folk who are falling into gullies whilst looking for Pokemons and/or allowing their dogs to chase sheep/ponies/highland calves/ground nesting birds a herd of Welsh Black Cattle would probably be instructional. Sigh.

 

[palo1]

There are also native sheep breeds that thrive on saltmarsh land such as the Romney sheep. The Welsh salt marsh lamb produced is a premium meat as well.

I'm no expert on conservation grazing but maybe someone else can comment as to whether these sort of breeds could be used for grazing conservation wetlands?

I think for 'hardcore' environmentalists sheep are the work of the devil so regardless of their potential, ideologically they are probably difficult. A nice foreign breed of pony would fit in better I guess. All joking apart there are native breeds of just about everything that can and would thrive in all of our environments. Anyone who has lived or worked on Exmoor or in parts of Wales /the Highlands may find it hard to accept that those breeds can't cope with wet/boggy ground. But they may be more difficult temperamentally/prone to escape efforts in that setting I guess! I am sure that the Wild Isle editorial team chose not to go into details about the Koniks because of the storms of protest that could distract from the basic, and important message.