J&S
Well-Known Member
Has he not heard of lanolin and Arran sweaters??
What's happening on Dartmoor?
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palo1
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree there is 'blame' on both sides - people passionately committed to environmental improvement don't necessarily want to understand or support farmers who in turn can be very difficult to persuade to adopt new farming methods and ideas. At the same time farmers have been both supported and 'controlled' to an extent by governments and agencies which often seem to have totally contradictory objectives (ie allow neonicotinoids at the same time as reducing grazing animals). Farming is a long term game whilst environmental issues are immediate and pressing. Often environmental activists and commentators are seen to be on the periphery of the battleground (ie the working countryside) and are 'othered' by established agricultural communities. That tends to happen more when commentators are very outspoken and negative about long held beliefs, practices and attitudes. None of that is helpful! But Ben Goldsmith's ridiculous statement/s are particularly assinine and daft people grasp these silly soundbites and then think that they have knowledge, understanding and answers...
palo1
Well-Known Member
And the fact that wool is a brilliant, natural, sustainable and multi-functional product, the harvesting of which causes no harm. Someone send help to Ben Goldsmith please!
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Theres a nice video on you tube called The Lakes , wild once more about the united Utilities and the RSPB working together at Haweswater to find the best ways of farming rewilding and improving the quality of water in the reservoir.
Of course they want to show you a nice view of what they are up too but it’s not all grandstanding stuff which I feel the Bison thing is .
It’s worth a watch it’s taken me all weekend to remember what it is called and remembered this morning when I was lifting a trotting pole my mind is a funny thing .
Of course they want to show you a nice view of what they are up too but it’s not all grandstanding stuff which I feel the Bison thing is .
It’s worth a watch it’s taken me all weekend to remember what it is called and remembered this morning when I was lifting a trotting pole my mind is a funny thing .
paddy555
Well-Known Member
haven't watched it yet but I think it is this one which looks interesting. This is more like Dartmoor than Kent.
It is the "grandstanding" stuff that I am not so keen on. All the "making a show" about it. Needs an expert, Bison, special cattle, special ponies etc.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Yes, this is a good project and a lovely programme which I have seen before. The fundamental stuff of re-wiggling rivers and accepting areas of floodplain as well as planting appropriate trees in suitable places are all really sound. I think some people would object to the 'control' of grey squirrels (I wouldn't) and of course in places housing has stupidly been built on flood plains but the concept and practicalities of schemes like this are really easy to grasp and are manageable and really should be supported and championed as a reasonable way forward.
ETA - The vast majority of people still need to stop consuming and polluting etc too and that should be a priority for everyone really I think.
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Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
There’s also a Vison for Haweswaters future with briefly covers using ponies on the fells
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
There’s loads of great stuff on YouTube
Try searching mossy earth they do all sorts all over , but Glassie farm rewilding a river shows the process well and this is really rewilding not the for show bison and things like that .
Try searching mossy earth they do all sorts all over , but Glassie farm rewilding a river shows the process well and this is really rewilding not the for show bison and things like that .
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
A lot of the interest on both sides of this debate gets polarised on social media .
It really does not need to be no sheep and people going back to living in round houses nature is strong and give it a chance and it will take it .
This is a severely over crowned island to many people but there is hope .
Every scheme makes a difference even the ones that don’t work show what not to do .
IF we made subsidies to farmers dependant on establishing wildlife corridors and little areas set aside to be wet we could make a huge difference .
We do need to tackle the use of glyphosate in wheat production that’s a big big issues it kills invertebrates and therefore stops birds thriving .
killing the wheat before harvest makes it much easier for farmers but that chemical hangs around and guess what folks we are eating it .
It really does not need to be no sheep and people going back to living in round houses nature is strong and give it a chance and it will take it .
This is a severely over crowned island to many people but there is hope .
Every scheme makes a difference even the ones that don’t work show what not to do .
IF we made subsidies to farmers dependant on establishing wildlife corridors and little areas set aside to be wet we could make a huge difference .
We do need to tackle the use of glyphosate in wheat production that’s a big big issues it kills invertebrates and therefore stops birds thriving .
killing the wheat before harvest makes it much easier for farmers but that chemical hangs around and guess what folks we are eating it .
J&S
Well-Known Member
I am assuming this is a typo?! Over crowding is a massive issue. Too many people, more housing always required, more land utilised for building the wrong sort of house (i.e. housing of any type built in an already expensive area, even with the discount for "affordable" is still too expensive for families on average incomes to buy). TBH without drastic measures I can't see where there is hope.
I checked out the Knepp Castle website. Lovely idea, lovely pictures but it seems to be contradictory to then advertise for herds of people to come and tramp round it or worse, to be taken on "safaris"! It will have to be a delicate balance, are they conserving nature or is it merely a commercial project, And the price.........£75.00 per person for 3 hrs, what market are they aiming for?? I did think the £25.00 per annum to be able to ride on their tracks sounded like a nice deal though!
Sadly this won't happen: It is a society built on "spending", retail therapy and going on foreign holidays is what a huge percentage of the population live for, its their way to happiness. The changes needed in our society are so enormous, and the world is so influenced by big business and moron politicians ( just think, we had Boris and Donald ruling the world for a while!) what ever we think or do will be of little concern. This does not mean that we should not try our best in our own small spheres.
Sorry, here ends the rantings of a cynical old lady!!
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
And as long as "growth" and expansion are the main ways of measuring the success and health of economies, the monster of unchecked consumption won't be stopped.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Quite. We will have to find an alternative. I don't currently know whether to laugh or cry having heard from a friend saying that in a remote part of Wales (N Wales) the farm has had walkers using wooden gates and other features for their barbeques/camp fires. Now many of our gates stay open at times even for quite lenghty spells, and yes, some of them are a bit saggy and worse for their years BUT they are still in use fgs. No matter how much DNP or any other organisation adopts small, medium or large actions in good or poor judgement against climate crisis they still won't get over that sort of idiocy. Surely as an absolute priority we have to start really educating people about all this stuff? I have stopped walkers/wild campers on the beacons from lighting sodding BBQs in very dry weather - even within sight of a wildfire too. There is no hope. Bring on the mountain dwelling pokemons and chair lifts to all and any viewing points...
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
The reintroduction of wolves and bears would help with this problem.
J&S
Well-Known Member
I have just been reading an item of news on my phone regarding the New Forest. (of course they only managed to put up a photo of a coloured shetland type pony!)
They are introducing fines for petting and feeding the ponies, a commoner went to check her stock and found a shetland pony being coerced, with food, into a camper van. When perpetrators were approached they said there weren't any signs regarding this!!!! So this year there is going to be more signage but how can you guess what signs to put up if people are going to want selfies with ponies in inappropriate places??!!! Also more signs about forbidding BBQs but once again, if folk are so stupid to want to light a fire during a drought (for instance) will they take notice of a sign?
"we have to start really educating people about all this stuff" quote from Palo 1
I used to ride out on the forest most days and can well remember the occasion when I suggested to a young couple that they should not try to sit their small child on a pony on Longslade Bottom. It didn't go down well. So where do you start?
They are introducing fines for petting and feeding the ponies, a commoner went to check her stock and found a shetland pony being coerced, with food, into a camper van. When perpetrators were approached they said there weren't any signs regarding this!!!! So this year there is going to be more signage but how can you guess what signs to put up if people are going to want selfies with ponies in inappropriate places??!!! Also more signs about forbidding BBQs but once again, if folk are so stupid to want to light a fire during a drought (for instance) will they take notice of a sign?
"we have to start really educating people about all this stuff" quote from Palo 1
I used to ride out on the forest most days and can well remember the occasion when I suggested to a young couple that they should not try to sit their small child on a pony on Longslade Bottom. It didn't go down well. So where do you start?
tda
Well-Known Member
But for the ponies (of whatever breed) this type of area would be just a part of the wide range of habitat available. If it was only marsh ponies may visit in certain times of year but not live there permanently
paddy555
Well-Known Member
reynold
Well-Known Member
A lawless eco-elite now rules rural Britain
Those of us who manage the countryside are rapidly losing control in favour of pro-rewilding zealots
www.telegraph.co.uk
Article in todays Telegraph, opinion piece, echoing a lot of what has been said above.
palo1
Well-Known Member
A lawless eco-elite now rules rural Britain
Those of us who manage the countryside are rapidly losing control in favour of pro-rewilding zealots
Article in todays Telegraph, opinion piece, echoing a lot of what has been said above.
I think the article is behind a paywall so can't see it sadly.
reynold
Well-Known Member
Jamie Blackett farms in Dumfriesshire and is the author of Red Rag to a Bull and Land of Milk and Honey
Below is part of his article. I don't want to paste all of it. He goes on to promote the fact that animals put onto land for rewilding should be allowed to be culled if they prove to overall be harmful rather than beneficial.
Riparian householders everywhere should be on their guard: beavers are coming, whether they like it or not. “Beaver bombing” – illegal releasing of the rodents – is the latest tactic deployed by the loose coalition of fanatical “environmentalists” and virtue-signalling rewilders who want to see the animals restored to their historic ubiquity in our countryside. Ben Goldsmith, a leading light, calls their campaign: “One of the most successful conservation interventions that we have seen in Europe, ever.”
Their arguments are not without merit. In the right circumstances, beavers are unrivalled eco-engineers, braiding streams with their dams, mitigating flooding by slowing down water flow, and creating habitats for spawning salmon, kingfishers, dragonflies and other species. They do kill trees, even very large ones, and they don’t care how special they are. But this can be an ecological good as we lack standing deadwood in the British countryside, which is a vital habitat for certain birds and many insects.
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So it is easy to see why, if you were a single-issue fanatic with no self-awareness or regard for other people’s property, you would get carried away and release them everywhere. But after a decade of illegal beaver releases there is enough empirical evidence – I hesitate to call it science, only because that word has been thoroughly debased in arguments about the environment – to show that, in certain settings, beavers can be disastrous.
In the River Tay catchment in Perthshire, drains have been blocked by their excavations and they have tunnelled through flood defence banks. The pro-beaver argument is that they create wetland – and our desiccated landscape does need more wet habitats – but when it is created out of grade one arable land without the landowners’ consent and food prices go up because we produce less of it, the need for robust controls is clear. And that, of course, is why it is illegal to release beavers anywhere in the UK without a licence.
Below is part of his article. I don't want to paste all of it. He goes on to promote the fact that animals put onto land for rewilding should be allowed to be culled if they prove to overall be harmful rather than beneficial.
Riparian householders everywhere should be on their guard: beavers are coming, whether they like it or not. “Beaver bombing” – illegal releasing of the rodents – is the latest tactic deployed by the loose coalition of fanatical “environmentalists” and virtue-signalling rewilders who want to see the animals restored to their historic ubiquity in our countryside. Ben Goldsmith, a leading light, calls their campaign: “One of the most successful conservation interventions that we have seen in Europe, ever.”
Their arguments are not without merit. In the right circumstances, beavers are unrivalled eco-engineers, braiding streams with their dams, mitigating flooding by slowing down water flow, and creating habitats for spawning salmon, kingfishers, dragonflies and other species. They do kill trees, even very large ones, and they don’t care how special they are. But this can be an ecological good as we lack standing deadwood in the British countryside, which is a vital habitat for certain birds and many insects.
Advertisement
So it is easy to see why, if you were a single-issue fanatic with no self-awareness or regard for other people’s property, you would get carried away and release them everywhere. But after a decade of illegal beaver releases there is enough empirical evidence – I hesitate to call it science, only because that word has been thoroughly debased in arguments about the environment – to show that, in certain settings, beavers can be disastrous.
In the River Tay catchment in Perthshire, drains have been blocked by their excavations and they have tunnelled through flood defence banks. The pro-beaver argument is that they create wetland – and our desiccated landscape does need more wet habitats – but when it is created out of grade one arable land without the landowners’ consent and food prices go up because we produce less of it, the need for robust controls is clear. And that, of course, is why it is illegal to release beavers anywhere in the UK without a licence.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
Ironic title given that what's happening on Dartmoor appears to be a result of the failure of the HLS scheme costing millions (in which the commoners were asked to suggest stocking times and numbers) to actually achieve its aims.A lawless eco-elite now rules rural Britain
Those of us who manage the countryside are rapidly losing control in favour of pro-rewilding zealots
Article in todays Telegraph, opinion piece, echoing a lot of what has been said above.
The direct quotes from the Pembrokeshire couple with the beaver seemed to suggest that they were very pleased to have it and enjoyed watching it. From the guardian article (and mysteriously not quoted in some other places): "We love watching the beaver go about his business at night on the stealth cameras and with so much habitat and food we hope it will stay long term,” they said". But that wouldn't fit the narrative at all so they've suddenly become dismayed....
palo1
Well-Known Member
I agree that the story is very different in the two sources. As for the HLS, all I can say is that most of my neighbours have, at one time, been part of that only to find it an utter failure in terms of recognising conditions on the ground, that different areas need different approaches etc. My most ardently nature friendly neighbour has seen no benefit to wildlife from the scheme (and they spent ££££££ on accomodation for bats and birds of prey) and feels trapped by scheme conditions and limitations in terms of nature restoration. We were advised by consultants NOT to enter the scheme, in part because all of the funding is uncertain but also because there is no perceived benefit in this area either in farming terms or in environmental terms. It is very sad but not surprising as DEFRA have been giving out on the one hand and taking with the other for years.
YourValentine
Well-Known Member
Failing nature on Dartmoor - why its protected areas are in such poor condition and what needs to be done
There has been much heated debate over the past few weeks about the future of livestock farming on the Dartmoor commons. Tony Whitehead takes a closer look at the issues … all is not what it seems … Throughout this tale, one key thing must be borne in mind. A large proportion of the Dartmoor […]
westcountryvoices.co.uk
Reviving this thread as this article ^ is an excellent, balanced summary of "what's happening on Dartmoor"
palo1
Well-Known Member
Failing nature on Dartmoor - why its protected areas are in such poor condition and what needs to be done
There has been much heated debate over the past few weeks about the future of livestock farming on the Dartmoor commons. Tony Whitehead takes a closer look at the issues … all is not what it seems … Throughout this tale, one key thing must be borne in mind. A large proportion of the Dartmoor […]
Reviving this thread as this article ^ is an excellent, balanced summary of "what's happening on Dartmoor"
That is interesting, thank you for posting. It is particularly interesting because that isn't necessarily how commons (away from Dartmoor) are being dealt with. It is useful that the relationship between Molinia and peat is described well, as well as the role of more external agents such as fertiliser etc. DNP are trying to do what they think best, and under pressure from various angles but that also needs to be joined up with wider agricultural policies I think otherwise ther farmers will always 'need' to stock at the maximum allowed or agreed density with the kind of stock that is going to be easiest for them to make a living from.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I cannot see how it proposes to control both gorse and bracken. Clearly burning isn't favoured but get rid of the gorse (which will now be a massive job) and then keep it under control which it did used to be and the animals will graze it and it will provide considerably more grazing land and help overstocking. As for bracken who knows. There was aerial spraying in the past but I doubt that is now acceptable. There was an article on the Brecon NP (now renamed) about taking bracken for bedding. However many of the areas bracken grows on would make harvesting impossible.
Keeping the numbers of stock to deal with the Molinia in summer is going to put a lot of pressure on winter in farm grazing, alternatively as in the distant past cattle are brought up to the moor but those farmers won't have commoners rights. Then how to get and keep the cattle and ponies where they should be.
Then there is the big problem of the attitude of the farmers. It has been done like this for generations. Give an inch, put some subsidy behind it and they take a mile. I look at some of the erosion due to animals on the common this winter whilst fields lie empty.
Dartmoor is not one large area, it is several smaller areas each with different situations. What is appropriate and needed in one area is very different to another.
Keeping the numbers of stock to deal with the Molinia in summer is going to put a lot of pressure on winter in farm grazing, alternatively as in the distant past cattle are brought up to the moor but those farmers won't have commoners rights. Then how to get and keep the cattle and ponies where they should be.
Then there is the big problem of the attitude of the farmers. It has been done like this for generations. Give an inch, put some subsidy behind it and they take a mile. I look at some of the erosion due to animals on the common this winter whilst fields lie empty.
Dartmoor is not one large area, it is several smaller areas each with different situations. What is appropriate and needed in one area is very different to another.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Bracken can be harvested for bedding and doing in subsequent years - for at least 3, can help to get rid of it. It is a practice that has been used in Bannau Brycheiniog (to use the new name) but it is tricky and if not done correctly can kill stock. As you say too, there are a great many areas where you cannot harvest it by any practical means due to rocks, steep terrain etc. One of our graziers harvested bracken on our hill this year but we don't all do it. I have seen it done on a small scale in the NP area too but only locally 1 farmer who wanted his son to know how to do it. It may have more currency as straw and other bedding prices soar I suppose though we are still buying bedding rather than harvesting bracken. No idea how you can deal with mature gorse tbh; that needs quite radical treatment I think. I completely agree too about grazing Molinia and the impact on winter keep; that is really naive to think that will be do-able.