What's peoples beef with Ceasar Millian?

I've never seen him, and I have no issue with people scruffing etc, BUT we (I volunteer/ foster for a rescue charity) have just had a dog returned when it's new owner decided to use CM techniques on him... the dog is a lurcher, so very wimpy, but bouncy, the new (male) owner wrestled it to the floor and the dog was so frightened it nipped him.

Very sad and unecessary.
 
When we consider CM, I suspect that we often overlook the fact that all his telly programmes, well all those that I've seen anyway, seem to deal with dominance problems. They rarely deal with the dogs which are anything other than aggressive. There are many dogs (and owners!) who have other problems.

Alec.
 
CaveCanem said:
It's true that lots of people think their dogs are dominant because they saw it on The Dog Whisperer.
Truly dominant dogs are rare and thankfully not usually in pet homes. Dogs are not sitting plotting ways to overthrow us and take over our homes. But some dogs do try and push their luck.

I used to think my older dog was dominant, he was not, I forced him into a position he did not want to be in.
My younger dog would have the capacity to be dominant but I don't let him...if I give him a centimetre, he takes ten miles.
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^^^^^^^^This the word dominance gets brandied by those who label a behaviour they have little understanding of or interpretation to describe certain behaviours their/a dog displays alot, its a word used far to frequently in the dog world. esp aggression (of course it's not always dominace), infact in most cases its certainly nothing of the sort)
However Dominance exists, even dealing with hundreds of dogs in a yearly period we rarely see it, but we certainly see it I can tell you that!
 
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I believe that CM has pointed out the dogs showing aggressive behaviour with it's roots in anxiety are less predictable than dominant aggressive dogs. He's also been shown dealing with lots of other behaviour problems apart from aggressiveness. Even with the dominant type dogs he's dealt with he always points out that it's because the owner has not shown the correct leadership so the dog takes up the role. It's unfortunate that people don't seem to grasp this and take the time to understand canine behaviour properly. I grew up on a cattle farm and occasionally there would be a calf that we would make a pet of. They always grew up with no fear of humans and were unpredictable if not downright dangerous to handle because of this. I remember one in particular who loved having her head scratched and being fussed over which was fine until you tried to walk away. She would then get very threatening and if you were daft enough to ignore and walk away you would get head butted very hard. As CM says boundaries and rules are essential and affection at the correct time.
 
TrasaM said:
It's unfortunate that people don't seem to grasp this and take the time to understand canine behaviour properly.
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Which is something I'd love to see CM do. The whole pack theory that he bases almost all of his views on has been proven wrong, it was a theory based on studies done many years ago, on captive wolves (so not really a true indication of their natural behaviour)

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha-Dogs_20416-1.html
http://www.thedogtrainingsecret.com/blog/alpha-pack-theories-disproven/

Cesar Millan is a self-taught 'expert' who bases all his methods on outdated theory, Ian Dunbar holds a veterinary degree, special honours in Physiology and Biochemistry and spent ten years researching the development of hierarchical social behaviour and aggression in domestic dogs. I know who's view I would respect more - and I believe Dunbar has spent time trying to re-educate Millan, got involved with his book to put a more positive-reinforcement based spin on it etc. but going by the previews of his latest shows, it seems like CM hasn't taken note.
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/lets-just-be-humans-training-dogs
 
While I have a lot of respect for Mr Dunbar, Cesar Millan may not have letters after his name but he was raised with dogs and if you have ever seen him around dogs and the way dogs react around him, taking away any of the corrections or nasty training bits people don't like, you will see that he has that way with them. Some people have a natural affinity with dogs that cannot be taught or read up on in books. He is one of them.
Not active, reactive and high-energy, like me :p

And can I just say once again positive reinforcement does not work for all dogs, my own included. There are some issues I don't believe you can afford to fanny about with.
 
krlyr said:
Cesar Millan is a self-taught 'expert' who bases all his methods on outdated theory,

Self taught seems to imply just that..based on his experience handling dogs over many years. As dogs in the main remain constant I don't see how experience can become outdated.

Ian Dunbar holds a veterinary degree, special honours in Physiology and Biochemistry and spent ten years researching the development of hierarchical social behaviour and aggression in domestic dogs.

Exactly..he watched how dogs social behaviours developed. At what point did he intervene and try to correct or direct said behaviours.

but going by the previews of his latest shows, it seems like CM hasn't taken note.

Why would he change what he does when what he does is effective.
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I would say getting bitten by a dog with resource guarding because he ignored all the dog's warning signs in favour of "knowing better" isn't very effective. Kicking a tense, reactive dog so it redirects onto you and 'requires' hanging at the end of a lead isn't very effective either.
He may get results, but with over the top, unnecessary methods that probably work more in the short-term than the long-term.

I would also say that someone with a natural affinity, or "a way" with dogs wouldn't need to resort to shock collars, prong collars, inventing their own collars, etc. too.
 
He's a dog trainer, not a piano player, I am sure he has been bitten a million times.

If you've been bitten, hard, you'll know that sometimes common sense goes out the window and you do lash out in pain, which isn't always the best response. Hey, even dogs do it.
Again, re the hanging, how would you have stopped the dog in question, the large husky x, coming at your arm?

That big pack of dogs that follows him out running, offlead, if he was such a barbarian with them, shocking them and sticking prongs in their necks all the time, wouldn't they be buggering off over the countryside rather than following him?
 
I agree with CC and good post from TrasaM, I bet very few people have ever met let alone trained a really aggressive dog. Ive met 2 in my lifetime one of which I owned and was kicked out of training classes because of it by positive clicker based trainers. They offered no help or support I was just told to go and not come back. I found a ex police dog handler who owned Dobes and had no training qualifications. I bet he had forgotten more than some of these other trainers knew and he knew exactly how to deal with my dogs problem and with his help we were able to turn him around.

CMs mistakes are very public and very often he is a last resort for these dogs .
 
It's not so much the way he deals with these attacks but that fact that he sets them up to happen in the first place. It's not necessary, he creates a situation where the dog is pushed beyond its threshold and feels its only option is to bite. Hundreds of trainers and behaviourists manage reactive dogs by learning their threshold and remaining on the other side of it. I've owned two reactive dogs of my own, one who would redirect onto me in her frustration/pain (she had quite bad hip dysplasia) so I avoided those situations as much as I could and carried a muzzle to use if we were completely cornered with no way out of a reactive situation. I wasn't even on any dog forums at the time, didn't really know about dog behaviourists and the like, but common sense says that if you play with fire, you're gonna get burned.
 
But the owners have an issue they needed fixing, or else why would he have been called in in the first place, by owners who probably didn't even know what and what they were doing wrong, and he has to fabricate an event to replicate the dog's behaviour to see how to deal with it.

Re playing with fire and getting burnt, yes, I am sure he felt like a bit of a berk for allowing himself to be bitten by the lab, but equally, I am sure he didn't cry himself to sleep over it.
Managed to get to my late 20s without being bitten (badly enough to break the skin), now I have been bitten a couple of times and I will probably get bitten again. Dogs have teeth.

Yes, of course you can avoid stressful situations, sometimes, but not always. If you can avoid the triggers, happy days, but that is not an option for everyone and sometimes you have to deal with the issue and sometimes that involves putting pressure on the dog. I can't personally go through life worrying that my dog's world might collapse if I put a bit of pressure on it or expect it to do something it might not particularly want to do.
 
I think you have failed to take into account some of the owners who are not too bright:rolleyes:, its my belief that he repeatedly puts these dogs into this situation so he knows how safe the dog will be when handed back to the owners. He has to get the dog to display the behaviour in the first place as he cant spend 24 hours with it and hope it will manifest in that time.

I too like you had a dog that would come up the lead and take a chunk out of you because he got so wound up, being a 40kg Dobe he could have done serious damage. The irony was he was protecting me and he could go from 0 to 100 reacting in a blick of an eye. I never used a muzzle and after his training he was 100% reliable and never displayed the behaviour again.
 
I never answer the other post as just got back from a break today and noted it but did not want to bring it back to the top unnecessarily for me to add what I can add here (a few questions), but as much as I disagree with the punishment of the food guarding (owners seem obsessivley hung up on food guarding) but I shall not go into that.
I would like to have known (if anybody has the info) was he called solely for the food guarding? or was the dog aggressive in general, had other issues? bitten owner/anyone? does anybody know this?

I still also love and read with interest the behaviours of 1 or 2 pet dogs owned over a stretch of years compared with someone dealing with hundreds;)
Inc an elderly lady who said to me just the other day, I owned 2 dogs and never saw that behaviour in my life (in regard to a little dog displaying aggressive behaviour):D
Of course all trainers have varied methods, theirs/ones they mimicked/ learnt, and some just don't deal with certain behaviours and stick with the very basics and exclude anything taxing/difficult.

As CC suggests you do have to apply pressure and cover most eventualities to find out how a dog may react, we have to all the time in order to rehome.
 
TrasaM said:
krlyr said:
Cesar Millan is a self-taught 'expert' who bases all his methods on outdated theory,

Self taught seems to imply just that..based on his experience handling dogs over many years. As dogs in the main remain constant I don't see how experience can become outdated.

Ian Dunbar holds a veterinary degree, special honours in Physiology and Biochemistry and spent ten years researching the development of hierarchical social behaviour and aggression in domestic dogs.

Exactly..he watched how dogs social behaviours developed. At what point did he intervene and try to correct or direct said behaviours.

but going by the previews of his latest shows, it seems like CM hasn't taken note.

Why would he change what he does when what he does is effective.
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Very good post^^^
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i always phone up the when the Ceasar Milan TV production programming unit come to the UK and offer myself up to be rolled and pinned down by him but strangely his PR people never return my calls :D
 
You girls should be ashamed of yourselves, all of you!!:eek::p:D

I have a great deal of time for the man, but with the yellow Lab bitch clip, he ***ked up, properly. That shouldn't alter the fact that he's generally, as good as it gets.

Alec.
 
I am not posting to have an argument. I really don't want that. Nor am I dissing CM. But there really are other methods and other ways of dealing with all training/ behaviour problems. Just because you have not witnessed them does not mean they are not out there. I mention again a fantastic trainer/behaviouist called John Rogerson who I know could show you several different methods of dealing with food aggression and any other training problem that would not get the owner seriously bitten. A good trainer has to be able to show the owner how to deal with the problem without getting the public or the dog hurt or injured.

That clip of him with the yellow lab was not good. even if the dog had not bitten him there are not very many people who could emulate what he did and not get hurt.

And for the record my beef with CM came when I was watching him on tv teaching a non aggressive pet dog to walk nicely on the lead using a spike collar. That is a simple walking to heal excersise. Was a few years ago mind.
 
Alec Swan said:
You girls should be ashamed of yourselves, all of you!!:eek::p:D

I have a great deal of time for the man, but with the yellow Lab bitch clip, he ***ked up, properly. That shouldn't alter the fact that he's generally, as good as it gets.

Alec.
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I agree ^^^^ he did make mistakes in that clip, but in general I still have no issues with his methods.
I still would have been interested in why/if if was just food aggression he visited the home or was their other signs of aggression too?

I don't fancy the fella mind you, don't you include me with them cesar hussies:eek::p:D
Them white teeth do nowt for me:p
 
Dobiegirl said:
Padderpaws no one is saying he is the next messiah but he is not the devil incarnate either.
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^^^What DG said, and I have indeed seen him tackle food aggression without using the method he did on the lab. I am still wondering if the dog had any other issues other than the food aggression (that he was called out for in the first instance).
 
tbh I think anyone who puts themselves 'out there' as a 'fixer' whether it be dogs or horses or people is open for criticism. You are never going to please or impress all of the people all of the time, even if you always get it right. As humans of course they get things wrong and I think the verocity with which their critics pounce (thinking of the Parelli's and CM here) only goes to show actually just how good and popular with the masses these people are and how much jealousy they spark. Of course there are as good if not better trainers out there, as there are no doubt 000's of brilliant bedroom musicians, but the ones in the media got the break.
I think the best the likes of CM can hope for is to please many people much of the time and I believe he achieves that. He's far too short for me to fancy, but I like his manner.

I think any of these 'in the media' fixers do bring good news for trainers everywhere as they bring an awareness to people of what is achievable and of the consistency and dedication needed in successful dog and horse training.
 
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