Whats people's thoughts of the Monty Roberts methods then

[Slightlyconfused]

Havent seen any of his demos but have had too IH out to see my mare who had a very bad start in life, she wont have a bridle on as she was ear twitched and after 40 minutes of them telliny me how to lead my horse and then desensitise her with stuff on ends of sticks, which i had had been doing anyway, i was told she is dangerous there is nothing they can do and just turn her away........i was so upset 7 months later i met a man called Terry Buxton and her came out to work with her (charging £20 for fuel rather than the £120 i spent on the IH) and after 40minutes her head was low, licking lips and he was pulling the halter on and off over her years and she didnt care, all it was he was doing was ground workng making her look to him for direction and support. He showed me how to do it and we have been doing great......he will be coming back out soon to help me re back her.

 

[neelie OAP]

Would you send your horse to a MR approved trainer in this country, if you were having problems, I believe that there are a few getting around now, or prefer to send to someone that did NH, or were BHS trained,

 

[neelie OAP]

Havent seen any of his demos but have had too IH out to see my mare who had a very bad start in life, she wont have a bridle on as she was ear twitched and after 40 minutes of them telliny me how to lead my horse and then desensitise her with stuff on ends of sticks, which i had had been doing anyway, i was told she is dangerous there is nothing they can do and just turn her away........i was so upset 7 months later i met a man called Terry Buxton and her came out to work with her (charging £20 for fuel rather than the £120 i spent on the IH) and after 40minutes her head was low, licking lips and he was pulling the halter on and off over her years and she didnt care, all it was he was doing was ground workng making her look to him for direction and support. He showed me how to do it and we have been doing great......he will be coming back out soon to help me re back her.

As some body said earlier on, true horsemen just get on and do the job without any hype, fortune making or claim to fame !

 

[Pale Rider]

Funny really, but I dislike MR method intensely, for a lot of the reasons people say they hate PP.


Also if you are relying on a Dually to load, you ain't taught your horse to load.

I haven't much time for HH this week, which is a shame because it's getting interesting.

Tiny, if you read this, I have looked but must have thrown it, cause I definitely had one. Replying like this as on phone and PM doesn't seem to work.

 

[Wheels]

Neelie oap, no I wouldn't send my horse away to one of the ih trainers in the UK but I would have one out to help me with my horses if I thought I or they needed it. What is the point of having someone else train your horse if you don't know the methods they are using?

 

[fburton]

So, (based on how MR describes the Equus language converstation) the JU says to the horse, hey listen up, we need to draw up a contract so we can understand each other and get back some respect here. The sign language the horse gives in return say "ok, I will let you be the chairman of the discussion"

That is one interpretation, though there is a simpler one that explains the behaviours seen in JU - and, imo, less anthropomorphic, because it doesn't involve "respect".

If there isn't a problem, I don't see JU is necessary to enable a good relationship with your horse.

Indeed, and even if there is a problem, one can achieve a good relationship, with the horse being a safe, willing and "respectful" partner, without the use of JU.

[...] but it will not be needed if there are other ways of getting a strong horse to remember to be respectful, I don't know how though?

In a word, training - where the horse learns to show the behaviours you want and not show the behaviours you don't. It really is as simple as that (in principle, although in practice it takes a bit of skill, naturally). The end result of this training is "respect".

The idea that it happens the other way round - i.e. that you first "establish" respect and then that causes the horse to behave as you would like - is naturally appealing, but imo illusory. In practice, the horse still needs to learn what you want him to do and not do!

I believe JU can sometimes be harmful and unhelpful. Where it may help is to a) instill confidence into the handler, and b) get the horse to pay more attention to the handler. It is certainly one way to start a 'conversation' with a horse, but there are others which are less obviously pressuring and punitive, and arguably just as effective.

 

[Caol Ila]

NH-style approaches were the standard operating procedure around where I first learned how to ride and train horses. Reschooled two horses with it and started a youngster. I'm pretty happy with the results on all counts. It was really all a matter of pressure and release, understanding their body language and psychology, and one of the key concepts, moving their feet, which makes sense if you watch horses in a field and the alpha horses will move submissive horses around.

I haven't done join-up in a few years, not since moving to the UK, as my horse is trained to the nines and doesn't need it. Last year, however, I tried a variant, just for the craic, where I let her loose in the indoor school and didn't put any pressure on her. I ignored her and let her wander about and do what she wanted. And you know what? After a minute or so of entertaining herself rolling and exploring the arena, she joined up.

I have also read some scientific studies of join-up which have made me rethink how and why it works. Some NH trainers suggest that it works because this is what horses to do each other. These studies found no evidence of that. They tried all sorts of experiments. The one I remember put dominant mares in the round pen with yearlings. The mares chased the yearlings, but stopped chasing when the yearlings stayed out of their space. There was no "invitation" to enter the mare's space after the yearlings had shown submission. There were also observational studies of wild and domestic horses which showed no evidence of horses doing this. The researchers surmised that join-up is simply conditioning. When the horse lowers his head and indicates that he is now paying attention to the trainer, and then turns to face the trainer, the trainer stops chasing him. So the horse learns what behaviours remove the pressure of being chased around the round pen.

HOWEVER, just to make it all the more interesting, another longish term study was done where a group of unbroken horses were trained using NH-type methods, including join up, and another group of similarly unbroken horses were trained using "conventional" methods. At various key points during the training process, such as when the horses were first ridden, the researchers looked for concrete physiological indicators of stress, testing heart rate, breathing rate, measuring adrenaline levels, that sort of thing. They found that the horses in the NH group had significantly lower stress levels than the conventional group.

I wish I could remember where I read these studies. It made for fascinating reading.

Whatever the reasons it works, I would continue to use join up when breaking youngsters, as it gets their attention and gets them focused on you and they learn better.

 

[neelie OAP]

Neelie oap, no I wouldn't send my horse away to one of the ih trainers in the UK but I would have one out to help me with my horses if I thought I or they needed it. What is the point of having someone else train your horse if you don't know the methods they are using?

Yes I quite agree with you on not sending horses away, once they are in some one else's hands you really have no idea on whats happening, something I would never dream of doing, but so many people do.

 

[Marianne France]

When I got my first horse in my thirties, I was determined to have the best possible relationship with that horse. I'd read Monty's first book and went to a demo. That first time, I truly thought I was watching a magician at work, the way he predicted what was going to happen and at the end the non-loader taking himself into the lorry for safety when the audience clapped. I'll never forget it

I've been to several other Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks demos since and continue to learn from both. I can see it's incredibly difficult to cram a lot of info into one evening in order to show an alternative method to people who may or may not be open-minded.

Monty's methods are so much more than join-up and the dually though. They are inevitably highlighted as a means of starting a conversation with a horse - but afterwards (to me) it's a way of considering how a horse is feeling and working with that. I haven't done join up with my first horse for years now, and have never done it with some of my youngsters, because we've had good conversation from the outset. I have a couple duallies used for initial training - if required - but my horses all load without them now.

I'm also a Mark Rashid fan before I'm accused of being on anyone's payroll

 

[Kaylum]

its not necessarily how they are trained its the kind of person they are and how they interact with people as well as horses.

its like when you talk to someone who said they have a horse and you know they are lying in the first two sentences as they say something you know is total rubbish.

 

[talkinghorse]

I first came across Monty Roberts at a demo in 2002. Until then I had had a fairly traditional horse experience towed on a pony by parents who rode, hacking, Pony Club; then as an adult, first horse and BHS instructors. I felt fairly confident on the back of most horses and had insufficient experience to handle the 'unruly' horse on the ground. If Monty Roberts' methods were common sense, in my 55 years of being on or around horses, I had met bullies with whips, a few wise men who had no problem and no-one knew why, and the rest who muddled through like myself — common sense was rarely displayed.

I started to learn Monty's methods with Intelligent Horsemanship in UK in 2003 and did courses, helped at demos and with training until I felt I was sufficiently experienced to attempt the assessment and examination in 2009. At 65, as I retired from a successful and sometimes high profile academic career, I became the proud holder of the Monty Roberts Preliminary Certificate of Horsemanship. I held that in higher esteem than all the letters after my name: the MRPCH showed what I could do, the rest showed what I had learned.

The MRPCH is not a qualification in Join–Up — Join–Up is only the handshake on first meeting the horse — the certificate requires study and examination in feeding and nutrition, horse anatomy and psychology, stud practice and foal handling. This is the preliminary certificate and does not qualify me to offer horse training services in Monty or Kelly Mark's name. There are two further courses, on handling untouched horses and dealing with difficult horses, that you need, followed by further assessment and monitoring to become a Recommended Associate. I doubt if the person whom slightlyconfused spoke of was a RA, as she would have mentioned that she was asked to complete an evaluation form and return it to Intelligent Horsemanship, where the odd conclusion would have been followed up.

The Monty Roberts training has made me more observant, more confident and more sympathetic when handling horses. I have learned to get my timing right and know when something I am doing is wrong. As I have learned that horses don't have problems but their handlers often do, I have found that I have fewer problems. Monty's methods work when handling children and adults too. You can't say that about many other forms of horsemanship.

 

[spaniel]

I met Monty Roberts many years ago and that meeting has stayed fresh in my mind ever since. There will always be debate about methods but for anyone who hasnt looked further than the equine side try checking out some of the work Monty and his family do with troubled children. Its awe inspiring.

For anyone who hasnt met Monty I can tell you now that the guy can look you in the eye and see right into your soul. Had he not been involved with horses he would still be a special person.

 

[sykokat]

I saw MR many years ago when he first started coming to this country to do demos. It was at Tattersalls in Newmarket. Went along to see what all the fuss was about. Came away impressed. Didnt think anymore of it until a couple of years later when I saw him on H&C channel. Yes, a lot of IH is common sense but MR has opened peoples eyes to the behaviour traits of horses and found the meaning of some of it. Common sense only comes with time and experience and being in the position of working with many different types of horse. Not everyone has opportunities like this. I have watched PP, CA and MR and in my mind Monty has it right. No one ever knows everything there is to know about horses. Even in a whole lifetime there is always new things to be learnt about these animals and new challenges. If I chose to use NH I would always choose the method use by MR

 

[fburton]

Caol Ila, you make some excellent points.

HOWEVER, just to make it all the more interesting, another longish term study was done where a group of unbroken horses were trained using NH-type methods, including join up, and another group of similarly unbroken horses were trained using "conventional" methods. At various key points during the training process, such as when the horses were first ridden, the researchers looked for concrete physiological indicators of stress, testing heart rate, breathing rate, measuring adrenaline levels, that sort of thing. They found that the horses in the NH group had significantly lower stress levels than the conventional group.

While this study is interesting and definitely a step in the right direction, it has been criticized on a number of points relating to experimental design. One is that it compared only a single practitioner of NH/IH and "conventional" methods - Monty himself vs a relatively unknown trainer. How skilled and/or representative was the other trainer? Given Monty's acknowledged experience and skill, was it a fair comparison between NH and "conventional" methods in general? It's impossible to know for sure.

As far as I know, only maximum heart rates were used for the submitted paper as a physiological indicator of stress, although the researchers also noted behavioural signs. There is potential data on heart rate variability which might be more reliable than straight heart rate (especially when the horse is also exercising) but that hasn't been analyzed or written up. They took cortisol swabs but have not had the resources to analyze those (yet). As far as I know, neither breathing rate nor adrenaline were measured (the latter is hard to do properly).

Rather disappointingly from my point of view, the paper doesn't address the issue of exactly what Join-Up does and how it does it.

Still, as I said, the study is to be welcomed - even if its effect is to raise further questions rather than settle the matter once and for all.

 

[fburton]

P.S. The conventional trainer in the Join-Up study was Phil Roelich, an eventer who produces horses.

 

[talkinghorse]

Fuller details of the research comparing Monty Roberts work with the conventional trainer can be read here: http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...ng-technique-helps-young-horse-perform-better

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Talkinghorse they we're RA as i got the names and numbers off the web site and the one of them had a web site.....i did have a form to fill in but was so upset with what they said.....i have a health problem and at the time was going through a bad patch so didnt bother to fill it in as didnt have the energy for it.
X

 

[NoseyPosey]

I believe JU can sometimes be harmful and unhelpful. Where it may help is to a) instill confidence into the handler, and b) get the horse to pay more attention to the handler. It is certainly one way to start a 'conversation' with a horse, but there are others which are less obviously pressuring and punitive, and arguably just as effective.

Go on then - spill the beans!! I did want to simply write "such as?" or "what are they?" but every way I think of asking, it sounds sarcastic

I have used JU with mine after a bad(ish) start and it appears to have got us back on track. I can't help thinking from what a lot of posters are saying on this thread, they echo what I am told everytime I go on a course through work - "this course is not the be-all and end-all of how to do the job, we just give you tools to work with. You won't use all of them all of the time and you can't use one of them for all tasks, it's up to you how to use them according to the situation".

I thnk what I'm saying is, JU seems to have worked initially with my horse but how do I build on our "relationship"?

 

[Wagtail]

I really dislike join up. The only time I use it is for horses that won't be caught. I think it messes with the minds of normal, well behaved horses and causes confusion and stress.

In the wild, the lead mare will chase off others that have been disrespectful or naughty and 'send them to Coventry', only allowing them back when they are forgiven and she feels they have learnt their lesson. NH practicioners mistakenly use join up to instill the position of themselves as 'leader' to their horse, thinking that it builds a relationship where the horse respects their leadership. What in fact it does, to a normal, well behaved and polite horse, is to send them away, as though they have been naughty. They have not, of course committed any misdemeanor, and so it makes them stressed and confused. They lick and chew to appease this person who has inexplicably suddenly behaved totally irrationally and sent them away!

 

[fburton]

Go on then - spill the beans!! I did want to simply write "such as?" or "what are they?" but every way I think of asking, it sounds sarcastic

Hehe.. I wouldn't have minded!

The most direct way to 'start a conversation' with horses is to start working with them. That's it - nothing secret or mysterious. Different approaches emphasize positive reinforcement (reward-based) and negative reinforcement (pressure and release) to different degrees. What makes them effective is how well they're applied. Although working towards a definite goal gets the job done faster, any time spent interacting is a valuable opportunity to shape a horse's behaviour and attitude towards your ideal. Problem horses may need particularly sensitive or confident handling - even assertive at times. There are a few 'tricks' (which aren't really tricks) which can accelerate the process - such as mutual grooming, or finding a horse's itchy spot, or ear or wither massage - but these are quite well known. One thing that makes a big difference to the quality of the conversation is heeding and responding to the signals the horse is sending you, rather than simply telling and commanding all the time; it definitely helps for the horse to know that you listening.

Is this the kind of thing you had in mind?

 

[fburton]

In the wild, the lead mare will chase off others that have been disrespectful or naughty and 'send them to Coventry', only allowing them back when they are forgiven and she feels they have learnt their lesson. NH practicioners mistakenly use join up to instill the position of themselves as 'leader' to their horse, thinking that it builds a relationship where the horse respects their leadership. What in fact it does, to a normal, well behaved and polite horse, is to send them away, as though they have been naughty. They have not, of course committed any misdemeanor, and so it makes them stressed and confused. They lick and chew to appease this person who has inexplicably suddenly behaved totally irrationally and sent them away!

Yes, that's another theory!

 

[Pipkin]

Would you send your horse to a MR approved trainer in this country, if you were having problems, I believe that there are a few getting around now, or prefer to send to someone that did NH, or were BHS trained,

Would I hell! A friend sent her mare to a MR approved trainer, mare came back underweight, stressed and worse than before she went.

Another lady sent horse to same trainer, horse went home with untreated poll injury and was a complete psycho.

 

[fburton]

I thnk what I'm saying is, JU seems to have worked initially with my horse but how do I build on our "relationship"?

Sorry, missed this question. The answer I would give is quite simple (perhaps disappointingly so) - more of whatever you find is working, following your initial JU. Building a relationship takes time - I would distrust anyone who says it doesn't and offers shortcuts.

 

[fburton]

Would I hell! A friend sent her mare to a MR approved trainer, mare came back underweight, stressed and worse than before she went.

Another lady sent horse to same trainer, horse went home with untreated poll injury and was a complete psycho.

It's important to remember that IH Recommended Associates are not clones - they are individual people with different strengths and weaknesses. So bad experiences with one doesn't mean that bad experiences are likely with all. Many people and their horses have been helped by the work (and advice) of RAs, and there are some that I know of better than others that I would be happy to entrust with any horse of mine. As always, however, it's good if you can get a recommendation from someone else that you know and trust.

 

[NoseyPosey]

Sorry, missed this question. The answer I would give is quite simple (perhaps disappointingly so) - more of whatever you find is working, following your initial JU. Building a relationship takes time - I would distrust anyone who says it doesn't and offers shortcuts.

That's great thanks - I can't ride yet til my collarbone has healed anyway so I did JU just the once and a bit of free lungeing but apart from that, I've been taking her out for walks in hand and given her lots of grooming & fuss. Everyone says they've seen a difference in her and she even lets me wash her feet now so I guess I must be doing something right.

 

[amandap]

Here's the list of Kelly Marks 'approved' trainers. Aka RA's.
http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/specialist-horse-training.html

I expect the list of approved Monty Robert's trainers is on his site.

I have seen one person and know of another who both claimed (and may well have) to have done the KM courses and both were doing their own thing much of it not very nice at all. What people take away and use after courses is their responsibility. We all know of the two people watching the same movie will 'see' very different things. Also there are many people who you can teach until you are blue in the face but they will still carry on doing their thing. lol

If you use an RA and have a complaint there is a complaints procedure in place. RA's have been removed from the list in the past I believe.

ps. Rosieshire, I second fburton, building a rapport takes time, and I will add patience, seeing the horses responses to you and most of all imo consistency.

 

[cornbrodolly]

Have seen horses ruined by Join up which seems to me to be all about chasing the horse away and instilling fear.
We use a more KF Hempfling approach , and acheive the same without stress to the horse - often the first session is done at halt and walk.
MR and IH , to me, is just a brand - and as others have said , some instructors will be better than others.
In the end , theres no short cut to be a horseman- it takes years of experience- and that experience has to be with horses ,not marketing /showmanship/empire building. There are lots of excellent horsepeople around , but finding them is the hard part. Their qualities are usually the same whatebver method they use - they re quiet,patient,sympathic ,fair but firm. For young inexperienced riders to follow any guru and to expect they re suddenly great with horses is peddling untruths.
As for this 'bonding' with your horse - now what does that mean? Just that the horse is obediant,willing, well mannered? Or does it stray into 'silly land' where we humans want a love and devotion that horses are very unlikely to feel ?[ except for a mare & foal bond]

 

[debsg]

I am a member of IH and have been using Monty and Kelly's methods for nearly seven years. I am 53 and have been around horses all my life and did my AI many years ago. I also admire Mark Rashid and others. I have not personally done JU with my mares as I have not felt it necessary.
SlightlyConfused, I am sorry that you had a bad experience with your RA. I'm pretty sure that he or she is a rarity, as all the people I've dealt with have been great. Maybe you could get in touch with the office, even now, and explain what happened.
Similar message to Pipkin's friend. II'm sure that Monty/Kelly would not be happy that someone was using their name and causing suffering to any horse.
At the end of the day, no one trainer is perfect for all horses and owners. We should all carefully research the methods that interest us, choose a trainer recommended by someone we respect and then go with our gut instincts.

 

[Orangehorse]

When I had my horse broken in, the trainer did not do a Join-Up has he said it wasn't necessary. It is knowing when it is a good thing, and when not a good thing.

I met Monty when I was a helper at a demo and he impressed me a lot. There is always a slight niggling doubt, having heard the criticisms about being "showman" and commercial - but after all, the spectators have paid £s for an event, so the horses chosen are going to be ones to explain the methods with.

I asked an RA if they find that due to the influences of Monty, Kelly, et al, if they find that people are more understanding of their horses and have fewer problems, but she said, sadly not, they go out to just as many.

 

[neelie OAP]

When I had my horse broken in, the trainer did not do a Join-Up has he said it wasn't necessary. It is knowing when it is a good thing, and when not a good thing.

I met Monty when I was a helper at a demo and he impressed me a lot. There is always a slight niggling doubt, having heard the criticisms about being "showman" and commercial - but after all, the spectators have paid £s for an event, so the horses chosen are going to be ones to explain the methods with.

I asked an RA if they find that due to the influences of Monty, Kelly, et al, if they find that people are more understanding of their horses and have fewer problems, but she said, sadly not, they go out to just as many.

Well I think maybe that last sentence just about sums it all up, don't you !