Whats people's thoughts of the Monty Roberts methods then

First off all credit to Monty for the stall-blanket success (I was under the impression that he invented it too, although would be interested to hear other info?). I do believe this to be one of his much better ideas. But I am disappointed to see that MR's supporters still haven't answered any of Morgan123's questions, and don't seem overly keen to discuss the inclusion of buckstoppers in experiements designed to show how "kind" Monty's methods are. Ah well, off for a little tipple down the pub with friends now, perhaps someone would like to chat buckstoppers and scientific studies with me when I come back!

Muff, I'm sorry, I wasn't deliberately ignoring your post, I just don't think you understood the point I was trying to make. I am not saying that horses don't show behaviours such as head lowering, licking and chewing etc, I am just saying they may very well not mean what Monty says they does, and that what happens in the round pen is more to do with learning theory and much less to do with what Monty says he has observed in feral horses. There is more on this in the articles I have posted links to.
 
Marianne France said:
I am dismayed by the number of outright untruths being posted on this thread about Monty Roberts. If you've actually seen him working with horses or at least read his books then fair enough you have some basis for your opinion. If you're just repeating something you've heard, or have just made it up then please have the courtesy to start your sentence with "I believe" or "I've heard that" :(
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I know for a fact that MR has worked with other horsemen and he has written that he is still learning all the time, hasn't ever stopped learning. I agree he does bang on about other methods using violence but I have never heard him say his methods are the only ones.
I have heard him defend his methods against criticism from others.
 
muff747 said:
I know for a fact that MR has worked with other horsemen and he has written that he is still learning all the time, hasn't ever stopped learning. I agree he does bang on about other methods using violence but I have never heard him say his methods are the only ones.
I have heard him defend his methods against criticism from others.
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Sorry cut myself short there, I meant to say this;-
I know for a fact that MR has worked with other horsemen and he says that he is still learning all the time, hasn't ever stopped learning. I agree he does bang on about other methods using violence but I have never heard him say his methods are the only ones and I have never heard him name any names when he says other methods are violent. I have heard him defend his methods against criticism from others.
There are certain aspects of his training I don't agree with but I do not think he is perfect, no one is perfect, but many of his methods are easy to learn and copy so anyone wanting to make a connection with their horse, can take this knowledge home and improve their relationship, and hopefully relay this interest to other horse owners they come into contact with.
And he, IMO has put a name to the signals that horses display in order to educate and enlighten anyone wanting to learn about the way horses communicate with each other. And if my horse and many of the horses I have met since becoming aware of NH are displaying these signals, surely wild horses will be displaying them also. It is quite obvious to me this is their "language".
I believe MR has interpreted these signs fairly because of the way the horse reacts after displaying these signs, such as making the circle smaller and therefore getting closer the the one sending away. This happens in the field so it must happen in the wild when there is any correction needed to an unruly youngster. They turn their full attention to the person, or him after the initial signs, which gives the impression that they are willing to cooperate and when they eventually join up, the next step is they are then following. In effect they have given the responsibility of leader to the human and will then follow in a relaxed manner, completely of their own free will.
All MR is doing is explaining in an easy to follow way to educate people so they can begin to understand why horses behave the way they do and will learn to listen to these signs.
 
Here I am, back from the pub and ... no discussion on buckstoppers ... shame ... :p

Muff, I appreciate what you are saying, obviously everyone is entitled to their viewpoint, and that will be influenced by our knowledge and experiences. Below is a post that I wrote on here a while ago regarding an alternative, and very plausible interpretation of join up. At the end of the day we are all free to make up our own minds ... well, if you believe in free will that is ;) ... (just joking, I'm not into determinism really!).

As has already been mentioned, it's unlikely that Roberts 'invented' or 'discovered' join up - old horse-types have been doing it for years, I can remember being told how to walk down an uncatchable pony in a small field by driving it away from you years and years ago when I worked for an old dealer - way before Roberts every came here. In a book written by Monty's father there is a description of something that very closely resembles join up. So some may argue that he learnt it from watching his dad, nothing to do with wild horses. As I said before, to my knowledge horses doing join up with one another has never been videoed - surely if they used it as Roberts describes it would be seen by anyone who goes out and watches feral horses and ponies and would be easy to get on camera? The clever thing that Roberts did was identify a very specific set of behaviours that horses display when they are uncomfortable with the status quo (being chased in circles) and would very much like the option to do something else. This makes it look a bit like 'magic' - until you understand learning theory and ethology.

If it really did as it said on the tin, ie, improve the relationship, the origin wouldn't really matter, and you could just put it down to fancy marketing/poetic licence and leave it at that. However, horses only 'join up' in the round pen because really they only have a limited amount of choices - run round, or come and stand by the handler and stick with the handler. If they don't choose they come in/stick with option then they get to run round again. So the horse doesn't come in because he chooses to be with the human, he just doesn't want to keep running round the pen and he is looking for the other option. I don't believe that being forced into that option then makes the horse view the human as leader either - first off (as mentioned in one of the articles I put a link to earlier) there is no evidence that horses view humans as other horses, or as 'leaders'. Secondly, and perhaps more compelling, when given the option outside the roundpen the horse doesn't choose to stay with the handler - they walk away. Surely, if the human was now viewed as leader by the horse, the horse would stay with his leader? But he does not, suggesting that the idea of 'leader' is flawed one. The reason the horse walks away is because the learning is context specific - that means that the rules (stay with human or be chased around) apply only in the round pen. The learning has to be generalised - ie, happen in lots of different situations and locations - before the horse figures out that the handler chases him away in a variety of locations, and therefore it is easier to stay with the handler than be chased away - again the horse is just choosing the easy option, not necessarily displaying a desire to stay with the human as a result of 'leadership', 'respect' or any other anthropomorphic (humanising) emotion that we like to attach to equines.

Roberts asserts that he is speaking 'the language of equus' in the roundpen - however it is accepted that there are certain horses to which join up is not suited - so what is being said is that there are certain horses which cannot speak the language of 'equus' very strange. What is actually the case is that there are some horses in which the fight or flight instinct is so strong that it would be dangerous to put them in an enclosed space and trigger that behaviour - they would end up either hurting themselves or the handler.

If Roberts (and his followers) were clear about what was happening in join up I would take less issue with it (although it's not something I see the point of, or would do with my horses). But it is dressed up in flowery language about relationship and choice and leadership and respect - whereas to my mind the best way to get a relationship with a horse is, as others have said, spending time with horse, getting to know him, building trust in each other and so on - as well as learning how to read body language accurately, studying horse behaviour and acquiring good training skills - all of which makes you far more trustworty in the eyes of the horse, and therefore someone who it is a good idea to be around. The 'fluffy bunny' aspect of it comes (I think) because it attracts people who desperately want a 'good relationship' with their horse, and believe the marketing hype that this is a good way to go about it. These people tend to believe that 'join up' is enjoyable for the horse - lol, I don't think so

With regard to 'Shy Boy', I think 'Knackered Boy' might have been a more appropriate name for him. Any horse can only run so far, in the end he has to stop and turn to face the thing he fears - if the pressure is taken off him at that moment (ie, he is negatively reinforced - the removal of an aversive stimulus) then the laws of learning and behaviour say that he will repeat the reinforced behaviour - hence staying with Roberts - trying to leave results in him being chased again. This is a very effective approach - yes, it does stop the horse from running away - but not because the horse wants to be with the human, but because the alternative is to keep running It's also why he didn't want to leave at the end - how was he to know Roberts wasn't going to leap onto a horse and chase him for miles again. Better the devil you know ...

Anyone who regularly does join up on their horses will observe that (if the horse is being read and responded to accurately) the horses will produce the head lowering/licking and chewing behaviours earlier and earlier - this is not because they want to be with the person more and more - they have merely figured out which behaviours to produce to stop the pointless chasing round in circles ... they're not daft, horses
 
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Also to take a small quote from one of your links again where they are questoning the interpretation of the licking and chewing-
"So in the popular demonstrations in which a horse is run around a pen, then allowed to stop--I think of the same simple underlying autonomic physiology. Scare or excite the horse, then stop."
The licking a chewing does not happen when the JU ends, it happens near the beginning of the process so I think their challenge of that particular sign is flawed because their observation is inaccurate.
I don't necessarily think the horse is saying, don't eat me because I mean you no harm, I am eating. There probably is a scientific explanation but TBH, I'm not really interested to such a degree, so I am happy to let it go in one ear and out the other for now.:p
 
tess1 said:
Anyone who regularly does join up on their horses will observe that (if the horse is being read and responded to accurately) the horses will produce the head lowering/licking and chewing behaviours earlier and earlier - this is not because they want to be with the person more and more - they have merely figured out which behaviours to produce to stop the pointless chasing round in circles ... they're not daft, horses
But this is how they end up with a leader of a wild herd, the dominant one will chase the underling away until they show signs of submission, and then they will follow that leader.

However, horses only 'join up' in the round pen because really they only have a limited amount of choices - run round, or come and stand by the handler and stick with the handler. If they don't choose they come in/stick with option then they get to run round again. So the horse doesn't come in because he chooses to be with the human, he just doesn't want to keep running round the pen and he is looking for the other option.
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So why didn't that little mare that I caught in the (very large) field just run away to where I couldn't reach her then?? She was free to go where she wanted, she chose to come closer to me, couldn't that have been because she saw me as a potential leader?
 
Re: the starting stall blanket.

TarrSteps said:
But like a lot of his methods, he didn't invent the idea, he's just publicised it. Fair enough and I'm sure the accessibility of what he teaches has helped a lot of people and horses. He is, no doubt, a very good horseman.

So yes, his methods have validity but there are other sources, just as good.
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Excuse me but Mr Roberts DID invent the blanket! It was developed to help a horse that I was once acquainted with, Prince of Darkness. Monty has been a successful man in many areas of equestrianism including racing. He's had success in turning around some very famous racehorses including the outstanding Lomitas.
 
Yes lots of very interesting points, but why is it then that there are so few MR certified trainers in the UK, when you see such a great number of BHS qualified instructors, is it cost or is it because people aren't really convinced of the methods used, there must be something holding people back surely
 
neelie OAP said:
Yes lots of very interesting points, but why is it then that there are so few MR certified trainers in the UK, when you see such a great number of BHS qualified instructors, is it cost or is it because people aren't really convinced of the methods used, there must be something holding people back surely
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Sorry to lol but is that really a sensible comparison? BHS is THE UK training organization and has been for donkey's. :confused: Most people stick with the BHS in UK and doing their courses is a requirement for many jobs...
 
neelie OAP said:
Yes lots of very interesting points, but why is it then that there are so few MR certified trainers in the UK, when you see such a great number of BHS qualified instructors, is it cost or is it because people aren't really convinced of the methods used, there must be something holding people back surely
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Neelie, no offence, but you're trying to compare apples and pears. Give me a Monty Roberts instructor (or - in the UK - a Kelly Marks Recommended Associate) anytime!

In my humble opinion, it would appear that you have direct experience of one method but not of the other, otherwise I suggest you might not even be asking the question.
 
Marianne France said:
Neelie, no offence, but you're trying to compare apples and pears. Give me a Monty Roberts instructor (or - in the UK - a Kelly Marks Recommended Associate) anytime!

In my humble opinion, it would appear that you have direct experience of one method but not of the other, otherwise I suggest you might not even be asking the question.
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Well having first attended a MR session in the 80's and in the last few years, plus have lots of video's etc also BHS certificates , I still have an open mind on these methods, to me it does seem a bit strange why more people don't take up the certificates that MR has on offer:)
 
neelie OAP said:
Yes lots of very interesting points, but why is it then that there are so few MR certified trainers in the UK, when you see such a great number of BHS qualified instructors, is it cost or is it because people aren't really convinced of the methods used, there must be something holding people back surely
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Goodness me! You honestly don't know that the main UK supporter of Mr Roberts, apart from Kelly Marks(!), is HM the Queen? He visits several times each year privately to start her young horses and was awarded the MRVO by HM last year, a huge honour.

There are quite a number of Recommended Associates of Intelligent Horsemanship and it takes a lot of hard work to gain this recognition. MR certified training is another route to go.

BHS is the oldest established training organisation and has improved, thank goodness, over recent years and it's no surprise to me to know that past and present presidents are supporters of Mr Roberts. I do know some very highly qualified BHS folk and more than one has embraced much of Monty's work :)
 
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neelie OAP said:
Well having first attended a MR session in the 80's and in the last few years, plus have lots of video's etc also BHS certificates , I still have an open mind on these methods, to me it does seem a bit strange why more people don't take up the certificates that MR has on offer:)
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In that case, I apologise for questioning your experience of MR :-)

Getting a MR qualification is VERY HARD WORK, I have a friend who pretty much had to put her life on hold for a couple years to attain the qualification. It does involve transatlantic travel and plays havoc with your 'ordinary' job/life in the meantime (how many employers are happy for you to disappear for several months at a time?)

Kelly's RAs do a sterling job in the UK though, if you have an opportunity to see any of them at work, I'd thoroughly recommend it :-)
 
:)
Marianne France said:
In that case, I apologise for questioning your experience of MR :-)

Getting a MR qualification is VERY HARD WORK, I have a friend who pretty much had to put her life on hold for a couple years to attain the qualification. It does involve transatlantic travel and plays havoc with your 'ordinary' job/life in the meantime (how many employers are happy for you to disappear for several months at a time?)

Kelly's RAs do a sterling job in the UK though, if you have an opportunity to see any of them at work, I'd thoroughly recommend it :-)
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ah yes as you say all the travel involved and being away from your work place could be a very good reason, :)
 
TarrSteps said:
Why do his rivals/peers/antecedents have to be wrong in order for him to be right? A lot of good horsemen have big egos but it's a bit hard to take, especially since he has been so successful, that he completely dismisses people like Ray Hunt or the Dorrance brothers in his own culture, let alone people like Tom Roberts or Henry Blake in other countries.

So yes, his methods have validity but there are other sources, just as good.
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Does Monty Roberts "completely dismiss people like Ray Hunt or the Dorrence brothers" ?
 
Ok I have not been able to keep up with this over the weekend I have been teaching on a clinic so not read recent disucssion. I hav written q very long response to your ques Morgan but as it was so long I've done it on the laptop not the iPhone, now having trouble getting the laptop to connect to the internet so my oh will take to work on memory stick on wednesday. Hope it's still useful and relevant then, not sure il get time to read and reply to all the recent discussion bit will do my best to input something useful over the coming week! Sorry to have kept you waiting! Rosie
 
Sheesh, am I glad to see a professional actually make that statement..... Every time I hear "we will take three months to bond before we ride/canter/jump"........... sigh, I know the person is inexperienced, not able to take on anything other than a kind plod.
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What a horrible thing to say! Atleast the said 'inexperienced' owner is taking their time and reducing the danger to themselves and others by doing groundwork first.

We don't all use the same bit/pad/saddle so why should everyone use the same training methods?

Of course in a professional yard there isn't always the time to explore other methods but if the horse is happy, and the owner is more relaxed and informed then to me that is a good thing and they may be more succesful because of it.

I've had my horse with me a week now after buying him, although I did ride him when he was in training at his P2P yard everyday earlier this year. We've spent some time teaching him to respect my space, stop, back up and playing etc. It is varying his routine and teaching him manners at the same time.

I've also ridden him in that time but only once I made sure we were both relaxed in our new surroundings and I will take things as slow as I need to to ensure neither of us learn bad habits in his retraining.

I see no point in jumping on prematurely just to satisfy others curiosity or give them something to gossip about when it goes wrong and I will use whatever (kind) method necessary to make sure we succeed.....be that NH, BHS or any other.

Whilst I am not a 'professional' I do have experience with racehorses and just because I choose to 'bond' (and I use the term loosely) with my horse does not mean I should be relegated to a safe plod. Hopefully we will both grow old and when he is greying and I'm arthritic (It won't be long for me!) we will be safe plods together.
 
EMC said:
Of course in a professional yard there isn't always the time to explore other methods
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Indeed - Catwalk and his headshyness comes to mind!

rosiejones said:
Ok I have not been able to keep up with this over the weekend I have been teaching on a clinic so not read recent disucssion. I hav written q very long response to your ques Morgan but as it was so long I've done it on the laptop not the iPhone, now having trouble getting the laptop to connect to the internet so my oh will take to work on memory stick on wednesday. Hope it's still useful and relevant then, not sure il get time to read and reply to all the recent discussion bit will do my best to input something useful over the coming week! Sorry to have kept you waiting! Rosie
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Looking forward to that. Thanks for taking the time to write a response.
 
I read a book of his a few years ago and it was very inspiring, probably applies to quite a few of our domesticated animals behaviour and our own.

I suppose the thing that I picked up is the herd behaviour, where we fit into it(sort of), emotion of humans(horses do not have that kind of human emotion), just survival...humanising animals..yes I am guilty of that ie soppy name of horse.

Its not about being soppy ,treating them like us all fluffy etc etc. I remember watching Harvey Smith saying if I swore at my horse in a softly kind tone the horse would think I was being very nice about it. However if he said something really nice in a growly tone then the horse would think it was being told off etc etc So right.

Thats what I learnt. I think when it all goes wrong its the owner and general inexperience thinking they can read a book and TRAIN their horse like Monty .

Thats probably the downside of Monty, reading his books watching his videos doesnt subsitute for experience. Monty does know what he is doing. Read his books, quite sad in places.
 
Pale Rider said:
I did feel that the cleverest thing Monty did was swap his stetson for a flat cap when in the UK.
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Now that is a very insightful thought. I hadn't really thought about it before - thanks :)

xxMozlarxx said:
To be honest I get tired of reading the emotive comments about the dually, I regularly defend it as it has transformed my big strong bargy horse quickly and easily with minimal fuss. He walks respectfully and on a loose lead rope now instead of dragging me around because he could, the improvement was instant. A rope halter had no effect when he was in a reactive state and it still wouldn't. It is a good piece of kit and there are similar things on the Market which would do the same thing.
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Disclaimer before I start *I own and use both dually and rope halters.*

I am going to try to word this appropriately as I don't want a fight, but I am really curious as to why you think that a rope halter wouldn't work but the dually did? Are we both talking about the fine rope halters commonly used by natural horse people?

In my opinion they apply pressure slightly differently, but I would say that a rope halter can be much stronger than a dually, and therefore be more effective at getting a horse who was in a reactive state to respond, unless the horse particularly disliked poll pressure but was okay with nose pressure, or if the horse was more likely to go confrontational with more severe pressure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising you, I think its great that you have found what works for you and as I say I use both depending on the horse and activity. I am just really curious as to your situation. :)
 
In the absence of Rosie, I’ve decided to come on and see if I can answer some of the questions that have been asked. However I must make it clear that I do not speak for Monty or Kelly or even Rosie who may wish to come and offer her own take on things.

I’m off on holiday tomorrow too so I won’t be able to come and add any more to this discussion.

I too am a Recommended Associate of Intelligent Horsemanship and I I’ve come on here because I hold such high regard for Kelly Marks and IH. Yes, I am a friend of hers as well as an RA but I choose my friends carefully and rather uncompromisingly. I was hurt on her behalf to hear someone say that she was assertive with a horse as it’s something I have never seen and I have seen her in action over and over again.

To me the process of Join Up is about opening up a discussion with the horse by moving his feet and directing his energy. For those that say it is unscientific, how many times does something have to be repeated and to be successful for what you want it to do, for it to be accepted that it works? For those that say it is a learned behaviour and that horses get quicker and quicker at offering the desired behaviour, how come the horses even offer it the first time and how come it’s always the same four behaviours? Unlike people who copy it badly, Monty and Kelly and the RA’s would never expect a Join Up to take more than five minutes and would not repeat it more than a few times on separate occasions with a horse. Horses are however quick learners and I accept that they DO get adept at offering to Join Up more quickly each time.

Why ‘sending away’ and not ‘chasing’? Well, part of it is to do with speed and some of it is about intent. Whilst the body language used is assertive and directed at the horse’s eye and shoulder, there is no emotional content to it. I’m not a person who says that only intent counts but it is a factor at least. Monty’s Join Ups do tend to be slightly faster than Kelly’s and any of her students/RAs. I don’t know why that came about in the first place but may be because it is needed to be slowed down for students to see how it all worked and also from a health and safety point of view.

The results of Join Up are often profound and it was a rather badly imitated Join Up that got me into IH in the first place. My own horse Petra who had been terrified of even a rug allowed me to sit on her back bareback after I had Join Up with her only once. Personally I think it works because you have moved the horse’s feet and directed his energy. When I am working with clients, I rarely use Join Up because so few have the right sort of safe facilities and in any event it can only be taught by a Monty Roberts’ instructor (such as Kelly) precisely because people need to have a really thorough understanding of why it works and its value and to have an undiluted version of it.

Join Up is so much more than just the opening to a conversation – it can show people just how effective their body language can be in working with a horse and how horses actually work. It’s also a great assessment tool too, in that you can assess how a horse is feeling mentally and physically by watching his movement and reactions.

I believe that understanding body language is absolutely critical to working with horses and it has enabled me to specialise in training semi-feral foals, something that even the most experienced horse people can find difficult. As a result, hundreds of wild foals (and older ones too) have gone on to lead useful lives in long term homes right across the country.

The fact that students are discouraged from doing Join Up with certain categories of horses is also to do with health and safety. You would be cautious too if you were teaching people to do things for the first time or having just one opportunity to demonstrate something to a wider audience of mixed experience. The list includes bottle reared horses which as we know may not have been socialised with other horses and therefore don’t necessarily understand even the plainest body language (Equus!) and may have been inadvertently taught to be aggressive or pushy or both. Stallions are on the list too – some may be naturally combative – and any horse that is known to be aggressive. That’s just a sensible precaution.

I could say to find out more about how Join Up works and to try it yourself go on an IH course but that would be advertising!

I would however say that there is so much more to the Monty Roberts methods than Join Up, much of which is about trying to find a solution to a problem or a way of educating a horse that is logical to the horse. Sadly so much of what happens to horses happens because it was done that way for military reasons or there is some sort of competitive or economic imperative or simply because someone has some sort of axe to grind.
 
^^^^^ what a great reply.

I have in the past had Gary bosworth ( works under Kelly ) out to my old boy, and he said he was not even going to attempt join up with him, so I completly agree with all that you said
 
Hi Tess and LadyinRed and Morgan123

Sorry it took me ages to get here – but with 4 of my 6 horses competing this has been an even busier week than usual (though very rewarding and I'm not complaining),

TESS I think it was you who got me banned because whenever I tried to answer before - you contacted The Fat Controller to say I ‘was advertising’. Hardly the way to engender useful discussions between parties to benefit the horse world!

Tess if you don’t mind me quoting you from somewhere else you say about horse limbs “just consider what these limbs are designed to do naturally - and then the unnatural strain we put on them through repetitive jumping, circle work, work on hard, unforgiving surfaces, nailing metal to the amazing structure that is the hoof ... and so on. And carrying a human on top :-( "

I totally appreciate your right not to want to ride horses, compete or circle them – I have seen the photo of your lovely 11hander (?) with the saddle chariot and he looks a sweet heart – but we all have our place/mission in the world and I think because I have had so much practical horse experience and worked with so many top horse people (too long and too many to list – but if anyone would like me to I’ll happily do so!)

I’m afraid I enjoy achieving things with horses i.e. the competition worlds – and yes there are parts of those worlds that are unethical but what will change them quickest is successful people in their field showing what can be achieved i.e. Carl Hester on H&CTV showing he turns his horses out every day will do more for horse health than any 'behaviorist' spouting off.

I feel in a good position to assist a few particularly talented people make a career helping others in the horse world - plus with my colleagues we educate vets and quite a few professionals as well as the ‘every day horse enthusiast’ to have a better, safer relationship with the horses with which they come into contact. I have also worked for the Brooke Hospital for Animals in Jordan and Dehli (working specifically with the vets) - but I can’t help thinking there is just as much education needed here in many ways.

MORGAN 123 asked for ‘The Theory Behind the Dually Halter’ and then ditto Join Up? And using dummy riders or buckstopper? – if I do that I’ll get banned for advertising! Ifyou get me permission I will do so otherwise I’ll post the information on my website for you to see.

LADYINRED said ‘I am afraid Kelly rarely responds to that type of question. She invariably has more pressing business.’ Hmmm... not quite sure what you’re suggesting there – I mean ‘more pressing business’ than the Horse and Hound forum’?! AS IF!

But you are more than well educated enough to know the difference between ‘chasing and sending away’ and just because you work for a clinician doesn’t mean you gain anything by putting Monty’s work down. Especially as the guy you work for is so utterly polite and delightful ( I had a good chat with him at the Melbourne Equitana in 2010 after the ‘Way of the Horse’) and I can’t imagine it’s the way he’d behave or something he’d wish to be associated with?

Must go! Pressing business!;)

Kelly

PS For anyone who just doesn't like me personally - I can well appreciate it - since seeing myself on TV a couple of times I had no idea before I have the most annoying nervous laugh at times, I make stupid jokes that only about 3 people are going to understand plus have no dress sense whatsoever - on the plus side ... I do 'mean well' ... xx
 
This business of complaining about folk to the Fat Controller and getting them banned is, I feel a bit silly, I tend to view the odd message from the Fat Controller as a bit of a back handed compliment, lol.

The view some folk take about anyone running a successful business out of horse training or whatever and making some money out of it, is strange. Obviously blatant advertizing is not wanted, but I don't see anything wrong with people making recommendations for products and services, especially when they have first hand knowlege about it.

I suppose there are all sorts of motives behind the serial complainers, but not liking someone elses views seems to pretty high up the list.

Completely off topic this, nice to see you back Kelly.:)
 
SarahWeston said:
In the absence of Rosie, I’ve decided to come on and see if I can answer some of the questions that have been asked. However I must make it clear that I do not speak for Monty or Kelly or even Rosie who may wish to come and offer her own take on things.

I’m off on holiday tomorrow too so I won’t be able to come and add any more to this discussion.

I too am a Recommended Associate of Intelligent Horsemanship and I I’ve come on here because I hold such high regard for Kelly Marks and IH. Yes, I am a friend of hers as well as an RA but I choose my friends carefully and rather uncompromisingly. I was hurt on her behalf to hear someone say that she was assertive with a horse as it’s something I have never seen and I have seen her in action over and over again.

To me the process of Join Up is about opening up a discussion with the horse by moving his feet and directing his energy. For those that say it is unscientific, how many times does something have to be repeated and to be successful for what you want it to do, for it to be accepted that it works? For those that say it is a learned behaviour and that horses get quicker and quicker at offering the desired behaviour, how come the horses even offer it the first time and how come it’s always the same four behaviours? Unlike people who copy it badly, Monty and Kelly and the RA’s would never expect a Join Up to take more than five minutes and would not repeat it more than a few times on separate occasions with a horse. Horses are however quick learners and I accept that they DO get adept at offering to Join Up more quickly each time.

Why ‘sending away’ and not ‘chasing’? Well, part of it is to do with speed and some of it is about intent. Whilst the body language used is assertive and directed at the horse’s eye and shoulder, there is no emotional content to it. I’m not a person who says that only intent counts but it is a factor at least. Monty’s Join Ups do tend to be slightly faster than Kelly’s and any of her students/RAs. I don’t know why that came about in the first place but may be because it is needed to be slowed down for students to see how it all worked and also from a health and safety point of view.

The results of Join Up are often profound and it was a rather badly imitated Join Up that got me into IH in the first place. My own horse Petra who had been terrified of even a rug allowed me to sit on her back bareback after I had Join Up with her only once. Personally I think it works because you have moved the horse’s feet and directed his energy. When I am working with clients, I rarely use Join Up because so few have the right sort of safe facilities and in any event it can only be taught by a Monty Roberts’ instructor (such as Kelly) precisely because people need to have a really thorough understanding of why it works and its value and to have an undiluted version of it.

Join Up is so much more than just the opening to a conversation – it can show people just how effective their body language can be in working with a horse and how horses actually work. It’s also a great assessment tool too, in that you can assess how a horse is feeling mentally and physically by watching his movement and reactions.

I believe that understanding body language is absolutely critical to working with horses and it has enabled me to specialise in training semi-feral foals, something that even the most experienced horse people can find difficult. As a result, hundreds of wild foals (and older ones too) have gone on to lead useful lives in long term homes right across the country.

The fact that students are discouraged from doing Join Up with certain categories of horses is also to do with health and safety. You would be cautious too if you were teaching people to do things for the first time or having just one opportunity to demonstrate something to a wider audience of mixed experience. The list includes bottle reared horses which as we know may not have been socialised with other horses and therefore don’t necessarily understand even the plainest body language (Equus!) and may have been inadvertently taught to be aggressive or pushy or both. Stallions are on the list too – some may be naturally combative – and any horse that is known to be aggressive. That’s just a sensible precaution.

I could say to find out more about how Join Up works and to try it yourself go on an IH course but that would be advertising!

I would however say that there is so much more to the Monty Roberts methods than Join Up, much of which is about trying to find a solution to a problem or a way of educating a horse that is logical to the horse. Sadly so much of what happens to horses happens because it was done that way for military reasons or there is some sort of competitive or economic imperative or simply because someone has some sort of axe to grind.
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^^nice reply^^
 
I'll be back to comment more later, but right now let me just say that Kelly, you have made some completely inaccurate assumptions. I did not contact the FC to have you banned - I have never contacted the FC with regard to any of you posts. Do please feel free to check that in any way you can. I did complain about Michael Peace's wife - her posts were blatent advertising and I don't think I was the only one who got rather fed up with her. Neither do I own a saddle chariot (although I have driven Simon Mullholland's piebald pony "Obama" in one, which is possibly the picture you are referring to, as Simon spent a summer at my farm a few years ago whilst we collaborated in modifying the saddle chariot for light agricultural use. My needs and land provided him with a testing ground for his ideas). I actually have eight horses in total, and have ridden and still do ride (although I have no interest in competition and do not shoe my horses), and I constantly question the physical and ethical implications of what I ask my horses to do - my comments were in relation to a video posted on facebook which had some amazing footage of horses' lower limb movements - do you think that people who ride should never question the implications of what we do? Interesting to know that you follow me on Facebook, though!

If my memory serves me correctly, last time we had a discussion on here it was regarding Monty's approval of Robert Miller's foal imprinting technique and his proud claim on the end of the video that he had used it with orphaned deer at flag is up farms in order to make them more amenable to humans - now, I would imagine the last thing an orphaned deer needs is a grown man inserting a finger where really no fingers need to go unless there's a medical need (because let's not beat about the bush, that is what Miller's imprinting is - one of the very worst forms of flooding), but hey ho, that's what these deer appear to have - as well as all the youngsters at Monty's farm, apparently. As I recall, you had my posts deleted, and then refused to venture back onto this forum to discuss the issue further saying that you had been contacted by someone from a psychiatric hospital saying that you shouldn't communicate with certain posters on H&H as they clearly had some form of mental illness ... are you sure you feel safe coming on here and "speaking" to me now?
 
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