Showjumping When do jumps stop looking big?

but we are where we are with language in the horse world, we know what we mean, don't we? esp as we have horse-related definitions to refer to thanks to the various rule books. I think there are definitely wider issues with translations e.g. from german to english in dressage training, such as, losgelassenheit does not directly translate to relaxation but it's there or thereabouts, and if you do a bit of reading you will find it's more like let-go-ness, but relaxation works as a shorthand.

likewise Cadence in the non horse world doesn't mean what it does in relation to horses, it's a best fit or shunting of language into a spot to describe action.

i think i've seen "willing cooperation" put forward instead of submission which sums it up in 2 words rather than 1... but again I'd say in the context of educated riders, submission works as a shorthand.
 
Its being used by a competitive dressage rider, in relation to riding a horse. In this case the FEI definition is far more reliable than an online dictionary which you have cherry picked to give the closest possible definition to your personal interpretation, none of which is relevant to the OP.
Context is everything and in this context submission relates to the rideability of the canter
 
Roxylola said:
Its being used by a competitive dressage rider, in relation to riding a horse. In this case the FEI definition is far more reliable than an online dictionary which you have cherry picked to give the closest possible definition to your personal interpretation, none of which is relevant to the OP.
Context is everything and in this context submission relates to the rideability of the canter
Click to expand...

Your first sentence is exactly the reason I have made the comments I have, to a competitive dressage rider ( and yes I am one too), that is exactly how they would interpret the advice and comments made.....However as they are also looking to event, I was simply offering a word of caution not to overdo the potential downsides of "submission" when it comes to fixed fences....and yes I was a competitive event rider (to Advanced) for many years, so do have a small amount of experience to base my comments on.
 
I just don't think that any of us on this board are going to make horses so unthinkingly cooperative that they will forget to take off at a jump. I swapped from eventing to (advanced) dressage and even my most highly trained dressage horse would take aversive action if she thought we were in danger because I was cocking it up, rather than blindly continuing in her obedience to my aids.

I think there's a much greater risk of having insufficient control/obedience/cooperation/whatever word we are settling on, and the combination having an accident because of that (sorry HP this is coming up on your thread, and it's not intended to be personal but by way of an example, if the pair of you were having an argument about the speed you were going into the base of a fixed fence, neither are concentrating on the obstacle and you'd risk going A over T).
 
Nobody has said the horse should be blindly accepting of the riders aids to the point of being an automaton.
However, in this case, in relation to the question - which of really when will it feel less scary this specific horse does need to be more consistent and more rideable in the canter and needs to accept the riders aids better to achieve that ie submission.
Even in the definition you quote there is no indication that free will is entirely over ridden or revoked.
Even at 5* ultimately the times it goes wrong and the horse needs a 5th leg often come down to the horse not being on the aids enough and taking charge too much. At grassroots just letting a horse (especially one inclined to cart on a bit anyway) dictate pace etc seems like a good way to get in to a sticky situation
 
The submission thing is just semantics, plenty of posters have explained what it actually means. And don't forget that it's the German Scale of Training, and a translation from that, and they probably would use different types of language within such a scale.

And even the Scale, imo, should have an extra line in it, a sort of number 0 at the beginning, which is acceptance of the rider by the horse - the Germans assume that this is in place, because they train their riders from the word go before they let them launch themselves into competition. We don't!
 
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