When to bail.

Caol Ila

Caol Ila

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Just some musing.... If your horse gets hysterical about something, at what point do you say, "Nope, this is not happening today" and go another way? Or maybe some of you are such brilliant trainers and brave riders that you can always push a horse through it.

I rode Foinavon down a road today that goes past a pig farm. For the last three years, I have ridden past this place, on him, Gypsum, and other horses, and the pigs were always in a distant paddock and I never had any trouble. But today, there was a pile of lively porky f*ckers in the field right next to the road. Fin lost. his. sh*t. I told them that they would be bacon some day, and he tanked off up the road, twice. I haven't done a proper one-rein stop like that in years. After some more circles and spins and threats of the barbeque, I went all-in. I got off and tried leading him. This either gives them a bit more confidence and they go, or it doesn't, and now you're on the ground with a hysterical horse, which is worse than being on it. Unfortunately, it was the latter. I was worried that if he tried hard to tank again, I might not be able to hold him. And when I flicked my dressage whip at his hindquarters, he started to go up. Not ideal. I've had this horse for nine months, and he can be spooky and hot, but I've never seen him this panicked. I said to OH, "This is not going to go." We turned around, and I led him up the road until he was calm enough to remount. We still had our mega-day -- the West Highland Way has multiple access points -- and the pig faff just added about 2K to the ride.

At least he's cool with cows.

I get 'not letting them win,' but when they are that scared, I'm not sure it's about winning or losing anymore. I learned this adversarial philosophy as a kid, but I'm not sure I believe it anymore. Not for every horse or every situation.
 
Caol Ila said:
I get 'not letting them win,' but when they are that scared, I'm not sure it's about winning or losing anymore. I learned this adversarial philosophy as a kid, but I'm not sure I believe it anymore. Not for every horse or every situation.
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I'm with you here. Not letting them win is for pretend nonsense, not real nerve-wracking things.
 
Caol Ila said:
Just some musing.... If your horse gets hysterical about something, at what point do you say, "Nope, this is not happening today" and go another way? Or maybe some of you are such brilliant trainers and brave riders that you can always push a horse through it.

I rode Foinavon down a road today that goes past a pig farm. For the last three years, I have ridden past this place, on him, Gypsum, and other horses, and the pigs were always in a distant paddock and I never had any trouble. But today, there was a pile of lively porky f*ckers in the field right next to the road. Fin lost. his. sh*t. I told them that they would be bacon some day, and he tanked off up the road, twice. I haven't done a proper one-rein stop like that in years. After some more circles and spins and threats of the barbeque, I went all-in. I got off and tried leading him. This either gives them a bit more confidence and they go, or it doesn't, and now you're on the ground with a hysterical horse, which is worse than being on it. Unfortunately, it was the latter. I was worried that if he tried hard to tank again, I might not be able to hold him. And when I flicked my dressage whip at his hindquarters, he started to go up. Not ideal. I've had this horse for nine months, and he can be spooky and hot, but I've never seen him this panicked. I said to OH, "This is not going to go." We turned around, and I led him up the road until he was calm enough to remount. We still had our mega-day -- the West Highland Way has multiple access points -- and the pig faff just added about 2K to the ride.

At least he's cool with cows.

I get 'not letting them win,' but when they are that scared, I'm not sure it's about winning or losing anymore. I learned this adversarial philosophy as a kid, but I'm not sure I believe it anymore. Not for every horse or every situation.
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If they are genuinely scared, it's not about winning or losing. So much depends on your knowledge of the horse, and almost more importantly the setting. If you are on a road, and they are scared, it can be very dangerous. In that case I'm afraid I would probably turn round, and try and find a safer way to get them used at a later date. Nappiness is another matter, but a road is not a place to be messing about either.
 
Caol Ila said:
Just some musing.... If your horse gets hysterical about something, at what point do you say, "Nope, this is not happening today" and go another way? Or maybe some of you are such brilliant trainers and brave riders that you can always push a horse through it.

I rode Foinavon down a road today that goes past a pig farm. For the last three years, I have ridden past this place, on him, Gypsum, and other horses, and the pigs were always in a distant paddock and I never had any trouble. But today, there was a pile of lively porky f*ckers in the field right next to the road. Fin lost. his. sh*t. I told them that they would be bacon some day, and he tanked off up the road, twice. I haven't done a proper one-rein stop like that in years. After some more circles and spins and threats of the barbeque, I went all-in. I got off and tried leading him. This either gives them a bit more confidence and they go, or it doesn't, and now you're on the ground with a hysterical horse, which is worse than being on it. Unfortunately, it was the latter. I was worried that if he tried hard to tank again, I might not be able to hold him. And when I flicked my dressage whip at his hindquarters, he started to go up. Not ideal. I've had this horse for nine months, and he can be spooky and hot, but I've never seen him this panicked. I said to OH, "This is not going to go." We turned around, and I led him up the road until he was calm enough to remount. We still had our mega-day -- the West Highland Way has multiple access points -- and the pig faff just added about 2K to the ride.

At least he's cool with cows.

I get 'not letting them win,' but when they are that scared, I'm not sure it's about winning or losing anymore. I learned this adversarial philosophy as a kid, but I'm not sure I believe it anymore. Not for every horse or every situation.
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WE have a pig far which we ride past, no a big issue. Some staring breathing hard etc, that is all. I teach mine to analyse things (not BHS I know), we stop and stare and talk to her calm her with my voice(also my boy). We go past the scary thing in their time, with most if not all things.
 
I think you did right thing. There is a vast difference between pushing a horse through something when they are nervous/unsure, and continuing to try and push a terrified horse to do something it really does not want to do.
When the situation becomes dangerous it's not about our perception of "winners and loosers", but about making yours and your horses safety your utmost priority, and defusing the situation as quickly and calmly as possible.
 
It’s never about winning or losing anyway. It’s about ‘what is the horse learning from this experience’. Evasions develop because a horse half heartedly says ‘no’ and the rider gives in and the horse thinks ‘that was easier than compliance’. On the other hangd, Forcing a horse to go past a ‘hazard’ teaches the horse that your judgement is dodgy and you can’t be trusted.
 
Years ago we were taught to stay on board at all costs.?. But basically you have to know the horse.
There is a point, a distance from the object of fear where the horse becomes worried. If you can find that spot and can reassure them then you can move closer. Repeat until the horse can pass the object without fear. Sort of obvious but the difficulty is finding that point if horse goes ape when it sees the scary thing.

It can help to teach the horse to touch stuff with their nose on command. You start with easy things like a fence post, a car, a tree and the move on to more challenging post box, wheelie bin, jcb, etc. This builds up the horse’s trust in the owner.

It can also help to follow scary things - lead a horse while pushing a wheelie bin. The horse feels that the object is moving away from them and so becomes less scary.
 
Sometimes its better to wait for another day. My Fell pony is apparently terrified of pigs -his last owner was told to ride him through it, she wasn't able to, he took off with her (she tried it three times with the same result...), she lost her confidence and pony got a rep for 'bolting'. Its something that he then relied on when he was spooked/worried and something I've had to sort out ridden and on the ground too.
 
Sometimes you guys have to find the place that they are comfortable and go from there. I don’t give up, by that I mean one day we will go past the scary thing, might not be the first day or then 20th but we will do it.

Getting a little closer and a little closer each time with great reward usually does the trick. You are ‘winning’ so to speak but so is the horse ? win win situ.
 
Just to add I like the confidence hierarchy: horses can gain confidence from and in certain situations; with certain people and - eventually - in themselves. Environmental confidence is the least useful - horse only really ok with the herd or at home. But you can use confidence in the environment or with herd members to build trust in both you and in himself. Confidence in you is great - your horse will lead/ ride past ‘scary’ things, load etc. With you. But there are situations where you will not be around. Confidence in himself is the best form: a horse who stops to think instead of reacting. Who feels generally able to cope with the world.
Backing off is environmental management- horse will stay ok only in certain places. ‘Winning’ (if done well) teaches confidence in a strong leader - but the horse will still need a strong leader. Self confidence- I believe - comes from repeatedly setting the horse up for success in every/any situations and then letting HIM ‘win’. And addressing any/every fear or dislike not by forcing the issue but gradually, over time. It takes a lot of time, thought and effort.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Forcing a horse to go past a ‘hazard’ teaches the horse that your judgement is dodgy and you can’t be trusted.
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I don't see it that way. If the horse can be made to go past, and arrives at the other side in one piece, then it learns your judgement that there was nothing to be scared of was correct, doesn't it? The rider has to succeed though, that's crucial.

I don't think I'd try it with a primal fear of pigs though.
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ycbm said:
I don't see it that way. If the horse can be made to go past, and arrives at the other side in one piece, then it learns your judgement that there was nothing to be scared of was correct, doesn't it? The rider has to succeed though, that's crucial.

I don't think I'd try it with a primal fear of pigs though.
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If you force a horse past something scary you are either showing good leadership or poor judgement. The horse will decide which!!
 
Ambers Echo said:
If you force a horse past something scary you are either showing good leadership or poor judgement. The horse will decide which!!
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No dispute there, the horse has to go past and be safe and undamaged at the other side, at which time you've proved yourself a trustworthy leader.

It does all depend on what people are calling "force" though. I think it's prefer the word "make", as in I frequently make my horses go past things they would probably rather not, but I tell them it's safe and they believe me.

If people think they should let the horse choose all the time we'll have even more owners who can't leave the yard.
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Pigs were the one thing my bombproof seen it all cob would absolutely refuse to pass. Tried many times to get him past the pig farm, in both directions, always with leading horses or a person on the ground. Nope, not happening. There is some deep instinctual fear of pigs for some horses, and you will have to work out whether it is safe for you to carry on asking. Another spooky area for my lad was husky type dogs, the ones that resemble a wolf. They had to be given a very wide berth and given the chance he would swing round on his hocks and run.
 
ycbm said:
No dispute there, the horse has to go past and be safe and undamaged at the other side, at which time you've proved yourself a trustworthy leader.

It does all depend on what people are calling "force" though. I think it's prefer the word "make", as in I frequently make my horses go past things they would probably rather not, but I tell them it's safe and they believe me.

If people think they should let the horse choose all the time we'll have even more owners who can't leave the yard.
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it probably depends on the nature of the "making" and how the horse is feeling afterwards.
Like, you can make a horse go by something by telling him that it's important that he follows your aids etc, in which case he will hopefully arrive at the other side feeling like you were correct and it was alright after all, adrenaline not too high. or you can make a horse go by something by adopting the screaming banshee method in which case you both arrive at the other side feeling rather worse than you started!
 
I don't think you did the wrong thing at all.

On that day, you prioritised that particular (long) ride over educating your horse. I presume because you had built yourself up to it and had enlisted OH to come too, whereby changing plans wasn't what you wanted to do.

Another day, you may prioritise going past the pigs. Personally I would do the ride the other way round, so home is past the pigs. A pal would greatly help. I would take a long rope and be prepared to spend 4 hours plus there.

I would do advance and retreat. So, when the horse offers to go forwards you then praise and back away again. Just 'live' in the vicinity of the pigs. Oftentimes, I think that horses are bullied past things, so then they are afraid of the pigs, or whatever, but even more they are afraid of being hassled and bullied by the human when they are in trouble.

As long as he is focusing on the issue, sniffing, head raising and lowering, etc, then I would leave him with it. He is working on the problem. I only pressure them if they check out, as in look away, get too relaxed (as in no longer working on the problem). I only hassle them enough to have them focus on the problem again.

The 4 hours plus isn't about getting them past the pigs, it is about having them feel OK near pigs.

My baby horse had some sheep he was worried about. He actually always went past, but with a hurried, stiff walk. One day, I simply asked him to halt, before we got to them. I kept the halt until he actually relaxed. Then we walked a few more steps, and halted until he relaxed.

We could have walked directly past, but spent 20 minutes there, in the vicinity of the sheep. He has not given them a second glance since.
 
I try to push through if I can simply because what if that was the only way around? I bail when it gets dangerous for me or for her.

Still I think you did the right thing, everyone's different and the horse should come first... if it wasn't for the fact my hacking is rather linear (only one way to get to things very often) Id not push her through it as much as I do.

Horse is right tho, pigs are a bit scary.
 
Pigs were Charlie's downfall and ultimately the reason I lost confidence in him (I don't think he ever had much in me). They're unavoidable on 90% of our hacks (they live on a junction and we have to go past it nearly every time) from 3 different directions and I just couldn't get him past them alone or in front. Even following, he was very unhappy. It was a busy stretch of road and he thought nothing of planting, leaping and spinning to get away even with lorries behind him.

He's doing well at schooling livery and once we know he's back in full work and happy (he had some time off with a physical issue) he'll start being prepared for sale. When he finds his person (and a pig free neighbourhood) he'll be great.
 
ycbm said:
No dispute there, the horse has to go past and be safe and undamaged at the other side, at which time you've proved yourself a trustworthy leader.

It does all depend on what people are calling "force" though. I think it's prefer the word "make", as in I frequently make my horses go past things they would probably rather not, but I tell them it's safe and they believe me.

If people think they should let the horse choose all the time we'll have even more owners who can't leave the yard.
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I think we basically agree with each other - I’m with you on not letting the horse ‘decide’. I’d consider that environmental management and is the least useful approach. The ‘my horse does not like x,y,z’ approach and very restrictive. And I think you have to be a good leader to set the horse up for success. Trusting you means the horse does things he otherwise wouldn’t and that trust- used well - builds the horses self confidence.

Also I agree that trying to make a horse go past something triggering a primal fear like a pig when panicked is probably not going to work. And even if you managed to get him to shoot past he will not have concluded either that he can trust you or that pigs are ok after all. So it would not be a ‘success’ in terms of what the horse learned even if you ‘won’, taking human frame of reference. That’s why I prefer to think in teens of ‘what is my horse learning’ not ‘am I winning’.
 
Caol Ila said:
Just some musing.... If your horse gets hysterical about something, at what point do you say, "Nope, this is not happening today" and go another way? Or maybe some of you are such brilliant trainers and brave riders that you can always push a horse through it.

I rode Foinavon down a road today that goes past a pig farm. For the last three years, I have ridden past this place, on him, Gypsum, and other horses, and the pigs were always in a distant paddock and I never had any trouble. But today, there was a pile of lively porky f*ckers in the field right next to the road. Fin lost. his. sh*t. I told them that they would be bacon some day, and he tanked off up the road, twice. I haven't done a proper one-rein stop like that in years. After some more circles and spins and threats of the barbeque, I went all-in. I got off and tried leading him. This either gives them a bit more confidence and they go, or it doesn't, and now you're on the ground with a hysterical horse, which is worse than being on it. Unfortunately, it was the latter. I was worried that if he tried hard to tank again, I might not be able to hold him. And when I flicked my dressage whip at his hindquarters, he started to go up. Not ideal. I've had this horse for nine months, and he can be spooky and hot, but I've never seen him this panicked. I said to OH, "This is not going to go." We turned around, and I led him up the road until he was calm enough to remount. We still had our mega-day -- the West Highland Way has multiple access points -- and the pig faff just added about 2K to the ride.

At least he's cool with cows.

I get 'not letting them win,' but when they are that scared, I'm not sure it's about winning or losing anymore. I learned this adversarial philosophy as a kid, but I'm not sure I believe it anymore. Not for every horse or every situation.
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not much consolation, but all ours are crack heads at the mo!

what with the wind and the change of seasons

the main thing is you are both safe, no harm done

i go on the principle if i ask the horse to go forwards and it does i continue, if it panics and comes right of the aids and stiffens i get off and find another way even another day

so everyone lives to fight another day, without bad memories
 
Highmileagecob said:
Pigs were the one thing my bombproof seen it all cob would absolutely refuse to pass. Tried many times to get him past the pig farm, in both directions, always with leading horses or a person on the ground. Nope, not happening. There is some deep instinctual fear of pigs for some horses, and you will have to work out whether it is safe for you to carry on asking. Another spooky area for my lad was husky type dogs, the ones that resemble a wolf. They had to be given a very wide berth and given the chance he would swing round on his hocks and run.
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Gosh: native danger memory! (boars and wolves...)
 
Pigs do seem to be Evil as far as horses are concerned. There’s a big pig farm (big farm and big pigs) on a popular ride and they now re route away from it. It caused so many issues. Even Rock Solid Finn didn’t care much for them.
 
He went from 0-60 in seconds, as soon as they started moving. As I said, he's a reactive pony, but I can chivvy him around most things. But this was full on flight mode and no chance to work on it, to do the sort of thing Red described. He was okay, he stopped, froze, and less than half a second later, he was running the other way. Remember, he was feral until he was 7 or 8. There may not be many predators in Aberdeenshire but their reactions are still more "wild." He is getting better (he's stopped spooking at random standing stones, people hiding in the woods, etc.,) but I guess that 'native danger memory' kicked in when he saw something that might actually be a predator.

Other people at the yard have similar issues at this time of year, when the pigs are close to the road and being fattened up for sale. No one has said their horse is pig-proof. This is not a commonly used route -- it's a long, tedious road that's somewhat convenient for getting to other places, but not the only way. The only guaranteed pig proof horses I know are Hermosa and her yardmates. They live alongside pigs, sharing a fenceline, and when we weaned Caso, Hermosa was in a paddock with baby pigs for about six weeks (I went to fetch her once and she was lying in the run-in shed with about three baby pigs -- and I didn't get a photo!!!!!!). Fixing this may have to wait until she can move to Fin's yard. He may respond to another horse not reacting.

I should add that I'm so accustomed to horses (albeit, not him) being calm around pigs that I didn't think of it as a major problem until we were cantering away from them. Like I said, his panic attack happened fast.
 
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Caol Ila said:
He may respond to another horse not reacting.
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I could get Charlie past with another horse in front but no matter how many times he went past in company, there was no way he'd go past alone. He wouldn't even go past in front of another horse. Nothing else bothered him but he totally lost him mind over those two pigs in a front garden.
 
We had a pig in a pen at the entrance to my last yard (not YOs pig). More than one rider had to go to the effort of opening the back gate rather than start their hack off spinning and refusing to go past it. Some of the horses didn't even want to come home past it and we'd have to take a nanny horse out to meet them.

There was a paddock next door and we tried with the worst horses to pop them in the paddock so they could get used to the pig in their own time. Even that didn't work with one of them he just ran around getting himself into a sweaty mess. There is something deeply primal about their response to pig. Except for my Appy who leant over the fence the first time she was introduced and licked the pig. She adored him.

I agree with the poster who said when they hit a threshold horses just aren't learning any more - they are in flight / fight mode and you'll probably get flight. I'd go back to the pigs one day when I've got plenty of time and a tonne of treats in my pockets and from the ground just reward standing, relaxing, approaching etc etc etc.
 
ycbm said:
No dispute there, the horse has to go past and be safe and undamaged at the other side, at which time you've proved yourself a trustworthy leader.

It does all depend on what people are calling "force" though. I think it's prefer the word "make", as in I frequently make my horses go past things they would probably rather not, but I tell them it's safe and they believe me.

If people think they should let the horse choose all the time we'll have even more owners who can't leave the yard.
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it's not letting them choose it is expanding their knowledge so they learn more and more things/situations are safe.
We've had several arabs and "making them" just doesn't work.
Leaving aside pigs then I would go as far as I could to the obstacle just to the point the horse started to slightly think of fear and then turn away doing stops, backs etc Then advance a bit more just to the fear point beyond which he can't learn and then stop, back, turn, sidepass etc etc. And keep doing this. He would be working not choosing, I wouldn't be "making" him do something he was genuinely scared of and if it took 30 minutes of doing ridden or even groundwork like this it would have been well spent as the horse would have learnt that and could probably adapt that approach to similar obstacles.

I don't see you can always be a trustworthy leader because for most people there comes a point when the obstacle is just too frightening and for the horse flight takes over. I want the horse to go past anything calmly because it is trained to do so and doesn't need support.

That is not letting the horse have a choice (unless it is a potentially dangerous situation such as bog or river etc) there is no choice, we are going past but I will train you to do it so you can do it yourself in future and you will have learnt. I won't make you because if I do I may well have to make you next time and you won't have learnt very much..

Pigs are different and some just never get it. We used to have loose pigs wandering down the road on one of our local rides. Lovely pigs and very sweet owners just not much idea. I had 2 horses. The arab used to see them and run very rapidly towards them and then stand and lick their backs. (obviously he didn't see the teeth on the boar that I did).The section D ran even faster in the opposite direction. Those horses never changed. Piglet time was a nightmare. The arab just planted to watch them, he was in love and could we have some, sec D ran faster than he ever thought possible. :D


When I got my 2yo haflinger I had a pig. The horse was around 10 when the pig died. He never got closer that 50 yards under protest and after 8 years of the pig he was still terrified.

The thing I have noticed with my various breeds is that the cold bloods were the frightened ones. The cob , haflinger, sec. d. No way would they even consider it.
The arabs, Peruvians, Criollos just don't see a problem.

CI's horse is a highland.
Is this just my observation or are TB's, Arabs, Spanish, hot bloods better with pigs?
 
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