When to bail.

[MotherOfChickens]

My lusitano was pig proof. he was 100% in any traffic and with anything-alpacas, donkeys, pigs, cattle, tiny ponies etc.

The moor bred ponies often have a big flight switch imle-sometimes that flight is only a few steps to get away and then eat again, sometimes its more. I dont know if its the same with those bred off the moor tbh

eta the thinking is now that horses have almost the olfactory capability of dogs which might be worth folk taking into consideration when training for something specific.

 

[PurBee]

it's not letting them choose it is expanding their knowledge so they learn more and more things/situations are safe.
We've had several arabs and "making them" just doesn't work.
Leaving aside pigs then I would go as far as I could to the obstacle just to the point the horse started to slightly think of fear and then turn away doing stops, backs etc Then advance a bit more just to the fear point beyond which he can't learn and then stop, back, turn, sidepass etc etc. And keep doing this. He would be working not choosing, I wouldn't be "making" him do something he was genuinely scared of and if it took 30 minutes of doing ridden or even groundwork like this it would have been well spent as the horse would have learnt that and could probably adapt that approach to similar obstacles.

I don't see you can always be a trustworthy leader because for most people there comes a point when the obstacle is just too frightening and for the horse flight takes over. I want the horse to go past anything calmly because it is trained to do so and doesn't need support.

That is not letting the horse have a choice (unless it is a potentially dangerous situation such as bog or river etc) there is no choice, we are going past but I will train you to do it so you can do it yourself in future and you will have learnt. I won't make you because if I do I may well have to make you next time and you won't have learnt very much..

Pigs are different and some just never get it. We used to have loose pigs wandering down the road on one of our local rides. Lovely pigs and very sweet owners just not much idea. I had 2 horses. The arab used to see them and run very rapidly towards them and then stand and lick their backs. (obviously he didn't see the teeth on the boar that I did).The section D ran even faster in the opposite direction. Those horses never changed. Piglet time was a nightmare. The arab just planted to watch them, he was in love and could we have some, sec D ran faster than he ever thought possible.


When I got my 2yo haflinger I had a pig. The horse was around 10 when the pig died. He never got closer that 50 yards under protest and after 8 years of the pig he was still terrified.

The thing I have noticed with my various breeds is that the cold bloods were the frightened ones. The cob , haflinger, sec. d. No way would they even consider it.
The arabs, Peruvians, Criollos just don't see a problem.

CI's horse is a highland.
Is this just my observation or are TB's, Arabs, Spanish, hot bloods better with pigs?

Maybe there is a blood aspect to fear response. I havent handled/trained enough to come to a conclusion but youve got me wondering.
One of mine is 50/50 arab, welsh D. She is vastly more scaredy-cat about flapping tarps/new stuff in the yard - wont go near, big nostrils and concerned eyes. But her fear isnt bolt scared…its more stand at a safe distance fixed snorting at it. Yet she can be shown something is safe and re-write her memory bank.
She always hated dogs, but with mine, got used to them, even respectful of them if they literally crossed paths incidentally. Whereas before her fear would have probably had her booting them out the way if too close, but they never did, as the fear was both ways back then, when new to each other.
She doesnt have a fixed fear of anything….it’s trainable.

The gelding is 75% arab, the rest welsh blood…and he amazes me with his fear response. (Im used to cold-bloods reactions) He’s curious about new strange stuff, very brave, approaches danger to investigate - he might bolt (in the field) with excited energy if decided its too weird for him, yet he approaches it first, out of curiosity. Big neck and eyes upon approach.

His biggest bravery was approaching a bucket of fire i had lit to produce smoke to disperse midges swarming. He’d never seen fire before. I was between him and the bucket to stop him in case he thought it needed very close inspection, like a sniff, and singed whiskers! Yep…i had to stop him going right up to it. I adore his curious bravery, as i’ve never known it in a horse to the degree he has it.

They both were very brave with a 8 tonne digger passing right through their large hard-standing area. There was no choice as they had to be there and the digger had to pass there due to its size. Due to the works going on, much of their leccy fencing was down, so couldnt move them.
I held both their headcollars and was praying they trusted me. Their energy elevated as it was closest 3 metres to them/us, but i spoke to them the entire time, and held them as the ground vibrated with it passing and the machine beeping its head off! It was a risky trial (i had a backup bolt plan just in case, they had somewhere to run to if needed) but i needed it as much as them, to show me that they did listen to me, weren’t completely mad when stressed, and they learnt i could keep them safe in stressy scenarios. So we all learnt to trust each other more that day.

In the op’s scenario i would bail too in that situation. Its sensible will full blown panic to do whatever is necessary to diffuse the panic. Horse panic can be dangerous and we all ‘win’ by diffusing it however we can.
I know with mine if i first approach the ‘scary thing’ and i survive, it visually shows them the thing isnt a huge danger. I’ll go first across new path/bridges, i’ll wear the tarp etc. Rinse, repeat slow sessions of this would be required with a pig, and not possible to do once panic has set-in on a public road.
I find pigs weird too to be honest - funny to hear many horses on this thread do… I didnt know pigs were such a ‘thing’ for lots of horses.

 

[MidChristmasCrisis]

I now livery on a pig unit….neither mare have reacted at all to the smell or screaming surprisingly….my mares personal bete noir was a turkey farm …well in the lead up to Christmas anyway..

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I now livery on a pig unit….neither mare have reacted at all to the smell or screaming surprisingly….my mares personal bete noir was a turkey farm …well in the lead up to Christmas anyway..

I can imagine them all gobbling at once might be quite loud and well, its a bit weird! We kept our ponies at a small holding that had turkeys every year when I was a kid-they had about a 100/year I think, can't remember either pony being worried about them.

 

[humblepie]

Lots of horses are scared of pigs.

Years ago I was doing a summer job for a top event rider - three of us went out for a hack exercise - coming back down this track past a pig farm, the others said to me to stick the horse I was on in the middle as last time he had had a fit at the pigs and gone over.....we made it but cheers guys.

 

[NightStock]

I wonder if you can get some items with plenty of pig smells on them to start acclimatising him to their sent (imagines OP asking farmer if they can wipe piggies down with a random blanket so her horse can sniff it ?) ?

 

[Sossigpoker]

WE have a pig far which we ride past, no a big issue. Some staring breathing hard etc, that is all. I teach mine to analyse things (not BHS I know), we stop and stare and talk to her calm her with my voice(also my boy). We go past the scary thing in their time, with most if not all things.

I also let mine have a look and think if he needs it. It has taken him 18 months to trust me , he used to run of be ever felt worried. I give him a moment to process it and scratch his wither (our reassurance method) and tell him it's safe. He will go psst pretty much anything but if he ever felt really wound up , I would get off. But only because I know him and I know he will feel safer with a person on the ground.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Wild boars and their ancestors would have hunted and killed horses and their ancestors so I think that's where the fear comes from, horses see pigs as predators.

 

[tristar]

or they just dont like the pong!

 

[milliepops]

Wild boars and their ancestors would have hunted and killed horses and their ancestors so I think that's where the fear comes from, horses see pigs as predators.

we have boar around us and mine actually seem to find them less scary than domestic pigs. possibly because they keep to themselves a bit (other than crashing through the undergrowth).

 

[Gallop_Away]

I'm sure this is just an old wives tale but my old YO once told me horses hate pigs because they smell of death ......

 

[Highmileagecob]

I now livery on a pig unit….neither mare have reacted at all to the smell or screaming surprisingly….my mares personal bete noir was a turkey farm …well in the lead up to Christmas anyway..

Oh gosh yes - turkeys! The lad was fine until one of them looked right at him, fluffed up its feathers and made.....that noise! He almost went up a tree! But the next time he was happy to stand and peer at them and work out that they wouldn't rugby tackle him.
This is turning into an interesting post. If a breed comes from a country with no wild boar, would the horse not have the instinct that pigs will kill?

 

[Celtic Fringe]

Well, I 'bailed' today and simply got off and walked my pony home. He didn't really put a foot wrong but was very 'active' and ready for a fast outing. He hadn't been out hacking for 2 weeks and is fit, well and was jolly in the wind this morning. I am recovering from covid and hadn't ridden for two weeks so wanted a nice steady plod - we just weren't on the same page today!

My old cob wasn't scared of much but he was genuinely terrified of pigs. One the bravest things he ever did with me was to go past a field of pigs on a TREC POR (orienteering). He managed to keep himself together but I could feel his heart racing. Somehow I managed to stay very calm, talk to him and pat his neck. I seem to remember him sighing massively as soon as he felt safe again.

 

[Caol Ila]

Very interesting discussion. Glad I started it.

Hermosa, the 3-year old PRE, has a far less dramatic fear-response-program than the Highland. She'll stare at something, think about it, and if you give her a pat and say it's fine, then it's fine. Things She Hasn't Spooked At include fire, motorway bridges, the motorway (there's a footpath that runs right alongside the M80), pigs, cows, trains alongside her, trains overhead (we have railway tunnels), tractors, being surrounded by a herd of sheep herded down the road....You get the idea.

Gypsum, Shire-TBx, could be the bravest horse in the world, but very reactive towards some things. I never really got her over the fear of cows. I got her to a point where she could go past ones that were quietly grazing, but if they got curious and wandered to the fenceline, you could kiss your a$$ goodbye. She also used to take offense at the Mugdock swans after we got hissed at by one.

I've attributed Foinavon's reactivity to his feral background and general inexperience, but in fairness, I don't have much experience with British native breeds. The only other native I've worked with was a Welsh Section D, and she made him look like a half-asleep riding school pony! I don't know how he compares to other Highlands, Exmoors, Fells, et. al. He's certainly an improving picture. I keep reminding myself that not only have I had him for just nine months; he's only really been in work for nine months!

 

[Sossigpoker]

Well, I 'bailed' today and simply got off and walked my pony home. He didn't really put a foot wrong but was very 'active' and ready for a fast outing. He hadn't been out hacking for 2 weeks and is fit, well and was jolly in the wind this morning. I am recovering from covid and hadn't ridden for two weeks so wanted a nice steady plod - we just weren't on the same page today!

My old cob wasn't scared of much but he was genuinely terrified of pigs. One the bravest things he ever did with me was to go past a field of pigs on a TREC POR (orienteering). He managed to keep himself together but I could feel his heart racing. Somehow I managed to stay very calm, talk to him and pat his neck. I seem to remember him sighing massively as soon as he felt safe again.

There is nothing wrong with getting off of you feel it would either keep you safer or help the horse.
On the yard with no turn out , mine was getting more and more fresh until one day he nearly had a melt down at some chopped wood on the side of the track. I could feel his heart rate going through the roof and his head was up and short.
So I got off , let him have a look in hand, led him past, then led him back and he let me stand on the logs to get back on.
Drama and panic avoided and the next day he was fine with the logs.

 

[Cob Life]

I listened to a WS podcast today that said “you can’t teach a stressed horse anything” this is something I’ve found on my own working with the mares, if they’re stressed or upset we have to bring them down to a level of calm and then call it a day.

 

[Caol Ila]

I listened to a WS podcast today that said “you can’t teach a stressed horse anything” this is something I’ve found on my own working with the mares, if they’re stressed or upset we have to bring them down to a level of calm and then call it a day.

Yes, that has been my view for a long time. It's true of humans too! When I told non-horsey OH that we had to turn around, he asked, "Will he not learn to be more afraid of pigs?" I said, "I don't think he's learning much of anything at the moment. Panicked horses aren't thinking or learning." Even if I'd somehow launched the pony past the pigs, I think he would have been too full of adrenaline for retaining useful information about bacon.

 

[Upthecreek]

Very interesting discussion. Glad I started it.

Hermosa, the 3-year old PRE, has a far less dramatic fear-response-program than the Highland. She'll stare at something, think about it, and if you give her a pat and say it's fine, then it's fine. Things She Hasn't Spooked At include fire, motorway bridges, the motorway (there's a footpath that runs right alongside the M80), pigs, cows, trains alongside her, trains overhead (we have railway tunnels), tractors, being surrounded by a herd of sheep herded down the road....You get the idea.

Gypsum, Shire-TBx, could be the bravest horse in the world, but very reactive towards some things. I never really got her over the fear of cows. I got her to a point where she could go past ones that were quietly grazing, but if they got curious and wandered to the fenceline, you could kiss your a$$ goodbye. She also used to take offense at the Mugdock swans after we got hissed at by one.

I've attributed Foinavon's reactivity to his feral background and general inexperience, but in fairness, I don't have much experience with British native breeds. The only other native I've worked with was a Welsh Section D, and she made him look like a half-asleep riding school pony! I don't know how he compares to other Highlands, Exmoors, Fells, et. al. He's certainly an improving picture. I keep reminding myself that not only have I had him for just nine months; he's only really been in work for nine months!

And you should hopefully reap the reward of having a calm and trusting horse in Hermosa. You are exposing her to lots of different experiences in a positive way as part of her training whilst she is still young and before she has had bad experiences and developed how she responds to them. Older horses that haven’t seen or done much are trickier because they are often quite established in how they will respond to something scary or difficult. That’s not to say you can’t overcome challenges, but they do take longer to trust and are more difficult to convince that scary stuff isn’t really that scary in my experience. I think age and lack of education/experience is generally more of a factor than breeding, though I have a friend with a Highland and he is sensitive, highly strung and stubborn. He is built like a brick shed and it’s quite difficult to change his mind once he’s got an opinion about something.

 

[laura_nash]

Oftentimes, I think that horses are bullied past things, so then they are afraid of the pigs, or whatever, but even more they are afraid of being hassled and bullied by the human when they are in trouble.

I used to see this a lot when I was on livery, to the point some people were just miserable to hack out with. Horse has a minor spook at something quite reasonable (pheasant flying up or something exciting in a field) and then has a major spook that it's going to be punished for the minor spook. Then gets chased on or smacked for the major spook. Next thing you know the whole group of horses is wound up and stressed for no good reason.

 

[Cob Life]

Yes, that has been my view for a long time. It's true of humans too! When I told non-horsey OH that we had to turn around, he asked, "Will he not learn to be more afraid of pigs?" I said, "I don't think he's learning much of anything at the moment. Panicked horses aren't thinking or learning." Even if I'd somehow launched the pony past the pigs, I think he would have been too full of adrenaline for retaining useful information about bacon.

Exactly like with the mares I worked with, could I make them do what I wanted them to? Yes however they were just going through the motions and not learning anything so when it came to something they didn’t know it was a big disaster

 

[Highmileagecob]

The native breeds seem to look after themselves first, and listen to the rider second. A native will co-operate with you and be the horse of a lifetime, but you are never completely in charge!

 

[milliepops]

The native breeds seem to look after themselves first, and listen to the rider second. A native will co-operate with you and be the horse of a lifetime, but you are never completely in charge!

this is my experience too! the survival instinct is stronger than with my horses who have been bred for sport. they might still be hysterical but they are much easier to talk down than any native i've ridden I still bleddy love a pony brain tho.

 

[Annagain]

My Sec D was totally fearless. The only time he spooked with me in 14 was when a squirrel jumped out of a hedge and landed on his neck. I don't blame him for that one. He was ridiculously excitable but never frightened of anything. Archie (ID type) is similar, he would have the odd spook but usually when he was furious with me for riding him at tea time so it was more of an excuse to try to go home than anything. The only two proper spooks he had in 15 years was when a goat jumped out of a hedge straight in front of us (I spooked too!) and once at a beer bottle in the middle of the road. I don't know what he thought it was but it was out to get him!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

The native breeds seem to look after themselves first, and listen to the rider second. A native will co-operate with you and be the horse of a lifetime, but you are never completely in charge!

I feel your statement is entirely true when it comes to Fells and Exmoors lol.

 

[southerncomfort]

Me and my Fell pony met a turkey a couple of weeks ago.

He baulked at first but then his natural curiosity took over and he marched up to the gate to get a better look. The turkey fluffed up its feathers and made that stupid gobble noise and I braced myself for a big spook, but Bo was just absolutely fascinated by it.

I wish I'd have got a photo of Bo and the turkey either side of the gate trying to work out what the heck the other one was!

He could not however get over the large pile of leaves left at the road side. ?

 

[Leandy]

I'm all for not giving up and being consistently insistent that they must do what is asked, but I would have done the same as you in those circumstances. We do have to listen to what the horse is telling us and he was telling you he was genuinely terrified. His behaviour was also becoming dangerous both to you and to himself. You were absolutely right. Choose your battles and live to ride another day. So long as you are not backing off things every day and hence giving the wrong messages to him, this is fine. Safety is the top priority for you both. I used to ride past a pig farm regularly as a child. My ponies never got used to it, they always hated it. They couldn't even see the pigs, just smell them and hear them, and often big noisy tractors around which didn't help either. I could generally get them past but sometimes had to get off and lead. If there was time I would go a longer way to avoid having to pass the pig farm. No harm in avoiding the issue if possible if it is a "big problem".

 

[magicmoments]

I once had to turn back when my TB was napping at his friends in the field and threating to back down a 20ft drop. To be fair to him it was his first solo hack and I hadn't factored in him seeing his friends as their were no leaves in the trees. Had he been a native I wouldn't have been so concerned for our safety. Anyway we turned back and I knew he would be thinking we'd turn left for home, but I'd already decided that we were going to go right, as then we would be on safe ground, and no traffic. Unfortunately he had a smack or two and we had a hack from hell, with him neighing for england, and me deep breathing to try and relax him, but it didn't turn him into a napper, and we both survived. Future hacks were much better, and he was generally a genuine horse.

 

[Highmileagecob]

I feel your statement is entirely true when it comes to Fells and Exmoors lol.

The Fell ponies that I have come across illustrate perfectly why they are a dying breed! Opinionated, stubborn, bolshy.....but give them a job to do regularly and they love it! Provided pigs are not involved....

 

[scats]

The native breeds seem to look after themselves first, and listen to the rider second. A native will co-operate with you and be the horse of a lifetime, but you are never completely in charge!

Totally agree. I feel this is the same with my part bred Welsh (Nebo lines). I trust her 98% of the time, but I know if it comes to it and she really loses her head, she’s going to have the ultimate say in how the situation plays out and it’s going to be very much with her survival in mind! I don’t think I’ll ever trust her 100% like I trusted Diva.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

The Fell ponies that I have come across illustrate perfectly why they are a dying breed! Opinionated, stubborn, bolshy.....but give them a job to do regularly and they love it! Provided pigs are not involved....

Thats a bit harsh Opinionated yes, mine definitely has opinions -he's quite sweet though under all that . He doesnt care much for schooling but really seems to love Trec and archery but there are Fells doing well in all spheres and I wish I had happened on them when I was younger.