When would you expect livery yards to reopen

[Gingerwitch]

Which, of course, might be one reason why I've posted more photos and videos on my public page than usual. Usually I keep rubbish videos / stills / day to day drivel off there but I object very strongly to this bizarre idea that nobody should post happy photos because there's some unpleasant stuff going on right now. News flash: there's awful stuff happening all the time. Just because the people dying from infectious diseases aren't in your neighbourhood doesn't mean they matter any less. Obeying government guidelines doesn't have to be miserable.

Now you see I have a slightly different view on that..... my old yard whilst banning us 7 day full liveries from the yard had DIY's post pictures of themselves going out on hacks and doing make overs of their horses.. so whilst I want people to post happy photo's in the situation i have just come from it was red rag to a bull.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Now you see I have a slightly different view on that..... my old yard whilst banning us 7 day full liveries from the yard had DIY's post pictures of themselves going out on hacks and doing make overs of their horses.. so whilst I want people to post happy photo's in the situation i have just come from it was red rag to a bull.

No wonder you left that was just a disgusting situation. Good for you for voting with your feet ??

 

[JFTDWS]

Now you see I have a slightly different view on that..... my old yard whilst banning us 7 day full liveries from the yard had DIY's post pictures of themselves going out on hacks and doing make overs of their horses.. so whilst I want people to post happy photo's in the situation i have just come from it was red rag to a bull.

But surely your issue with that is not the DIYs hacking, or sharing photos, but the draconian rules imposed by your yard?

 

[ester]

Hi Ester, what did Shearwater do ?

are you on the BD facebook page?
They essentially told someone they wouldn't be covered for public liability if hacking.

 

[Gingerwitch]

But surely your issue with that is not the DIYs hacking, or sharing photos, but the draconian rules imposed by your yard?

I had no issue with the people it was the hypocritical view of the yard owners ie your on full livery your banned and cannot even visit your horse, but your DIY so can not only visit all day twice a day as normal, but carry on and hack out in groups and we were on the same yard just on different livery packages.

 

[Gingerwitch]

are you on the BD facebook page?
They essentially told someone they wouldn't be covered for public liability if hacking.

Hi Ester

No I don't do facebook, but thanks for the info

 

[JFTDWS]

I had no issue with the people it was the hypocritical view of the yard owners ie your on full livery your banned and cannot even visit your horse, but your DIY so can not only visit all day twice a day as normal, but carry on and hack out in groups and we were at the same yard.

Precisely: it's ludicrous of the BHS to suggest people shouldn't post happy stuff on SM because that's not the issue. Your issue is that some yards have put in place bizarre and irrational rules - in your case, with the double whammy of those rules being unfair towards specific liveries. In fact, people should post photos on social media - in your case, that highlights the unfairness, which is actively a good thing as it encourages and enables people to respond to it.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

are you on the BD facebook page?
They essentially told someone they wouldn't be covered for public liability if hacking.

seriously?? Can they do that?? Legally??

 

[ester]

well the consensus was no, probably not as changing terms without notice.

this was their response, interesting that they still added that bit on the end re. challenge.


Shearwater Insurance We are sorry that the information you received was conveyed in that way. We did not mean to infer that you are only covered if you are riding on your own premises. Please see below for our statement:

We are aware that there are a number of mixed messages circulating regarding public liability and personal accident insurance during the current lockdown situation. This is unknown territory for everyone and as such we can offer advice based on the current Government guidelines.

- At the moment horse riding is not a prohibited activity and therefore could be classed as daily exercise
- Caring for your horse, up to twice a day, is allowed under essential travel

Both the BHS and BEF have urged riders to consider the overriding message from the Government of ‘stay home, stay safe, save lives’ and urge people to consider whether their activity is putting unnecessary pressure on the NHS. We would also urge riders to consider how their actions, whether this is travelling to and from your yard or riding, could be perceived in the event of a claim.

At the moment there is no precedent to refer to for further guidance. Similar to the BHS we are saying that our Public Liability and Personal Accident insurance are still offering levels of cover, however riders should be aware that in the event of a claim there may be a challenge surrounding the individual circumstances of that claim in relation to Government guidelines.

 

[SEH]

Our yard slavishly followed the BHS' advice without much intellectual consideration of what the waffle meant. That's why we can't hack out. The BHS had some words to the effect of 'think about how you will be percieved in the wider comminity and risks.' And for some reason, they interpreted that to mean that it would 'look bad' if people were seen out hacking on the roads

I hacked at the start of lockdown on roads where I knew they weren't suitable for walkers and only locally around the area. I had people glaring at me and tutting, and a stupid amount of people accelerating and speeding towards/past my horse. Amused me that the only reason they could be mad is the potential strain on the NHS, yet they where the ones putting me in danger. Luckily my happy hacker is bomb proof. Safe to say I stopped hacking

 

[JFTDWS]

Well I don't have any policies with Shearwater, but I certainly wouldn't be taking any out now. Horse owners have a responsibility for the welfare of their animals, and that includes adequate provision of exercise where required (and, since many horses in the UK are obese, that is not in the minority of cases). I don't consider in hand work to be a reasonable substitution in all instances, being not necessarily safer, and often requiring excessive work on surfaces / circles.


I'd like to add that I've been hacking - mostly off road but with occasional bits of roadwork - and I've had nothing but positivity from drivers, cyclists and walkers* who I have encountered from a very safe distance (I'm antisocial at the best of times!).

*except the one whose out of control dog swung off my mare's tail the other day, but they're locals who are always out menacing other PROW users with their out of control dog!

 

[Kat]

Wow! Shearwater's comments are mental!

I'd love to know whether they have had legal advice regarding their stance, I rather suspect not.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I think it’s ironic that so many yards are following BHS advice on Covid-19 yet I bet they completely ignore their advice on animal welfare and horse management.

 

[Muddywellies]

I'm seeing so many instances of people putting the responsibility of them not catching CV on others. Talk of disinfecting surfaces and closing yards? People just need to follow the instructions that we've had for the past 2 months now. Wash your hands regularly and don't touch your face.
Wash hands upon arrival at yard. Maintain 2m distance from people.
Wash hands before leaving.
Stay home if symptomatic.

With a little extra planning, I'm not sure why yards need to close, when people are paying a fortune to own horses.
The world has to start looking towards re opening again. Covid 19 is going nowhere (at least not until there's a vaccine) so are people going to remain in strict lockdown for the next 2 years or so? The reason for the lockdown wasn't to stop the spread, but to not overwhelm the NHS. Many people have carried on working, including my husband and I. We couldn't just decide not to go to work as we would have been on a disciplinary or something. So except for some exceptional circs perhaps, I feel yards should be allowing their paying customers back on the yard. Without them, there's no business.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I'm seeing so many instances of people putting the responsibility of them not catching CV on others.

But in many instances we are having to rely on others to behave responsibly during the pandemic. Many folk are being responsible, but some are not, and those who aren’t can cause a lot of trouble to innocent others.

 

[teapot]

With my work hat on, and given how much chaos the BHS post seven weeks ago caused, their update last night raised a wry smile. Centres will be guided by their advice but they have handled the whole thing badly.

Also not sure what the BHS is expecting on Sunday because from what I've read, the changes are going to be very very small and group riding lessons for little kids will not be at the top of Bojo's agenda.

 

[Muddywellies]

But in many instances we are having to rely on others to behave responsibly during the pandemic. Many folk are being responsible, but some are not, and those who aren’t can cause a lot of trouble to innocent others.

What is considered 'behaving irresponsibly' during the pandemic?

 

[teapot]

What is considered 'behaving irresponsibly' during the pandemic?

Not social distancing, carrying on as though nothing matters etc.

In terms of the equine world, and this is where the BHS waded in, there was also the debate over what should be posted on social media. A) those who are still jumping, or doing the toilet roll tiktok challenge sat on a horse backwards without a hat type; and B) those who are still riding (which is fine) and posting their lovely view from behind the ears view overlooking glorious green fields, sun shining etc, while there are thousands cooped up inside.

I don't agree with B personally just fyi, but that's what was implied.

 

[Tiddlypom]

What is considered 'behaving irresponsibly' during the pandemic?

Not adhering to the Covid19 guidelines on infection control.

Eg, if a work colleague of yours came into work with a temperature and a cough, and they told you, after they’d spluttered all over you, that they had been staying over with their partner who now has symptoms compatible with CV19.

You could substitute work colleague for livery, or for person rocking up to their GP surgery, but you‘ll get the drift. It happens, despite all the advice as to what to do.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Not social distancing, carrying on as though nothing matters etc.

In terms of the equine world, and this is where the BHS waded in, there was also the debate over what should be posted on social media. A) those who are still jumping, or doing the toilet roll tiktok challenge sat on a horse backwards without a hat type; and B) those who are still riding (which is fine) and posting their lovely view from behind the ears view overlooking glorious green fields, sun shining etc, while there are thousands cooped up inside.

I don't agree with B personally just fyi, but that's what was implied.

I also am finding it very offensive to see NHS staff doing tiktok dances and posting on social media, without social distancing. The point of lockdown was to stop the NHS being overwhelmed with work, but look at the clap for carers which is another example, can you imagine the outcry if animal owners were stood next to each other in the hundreds, would the police, fire brigade and ambulance crews stand by and even help them with putting on their blues and two's. A lot of what has been put on the news is also in very bad taste but it appears to be a case of do what i say not what i do.

 

[JFTDWS]

If NHS staff want to dick around to help them get through the day, I can't say I care.

 

[Gingerwitch]

If NHS staff want to dick around to help them get through the day, I can't say I care.

I do when i have friends with cancer whom can't get treated.

 

[JFTDWS]

I do when i have friends with cancer whom can't get treated.

Which isn't in the power of the staff on the ground - these sorts of decisions have been made at management levels. Doctors aren't choosing to have a jolly dance instead of treating people who need it.

 

[Caol Ila]

Which, of course, might be one reason why I've posted more photos and videos on my public page than usual. Usually I keep rubbish videos / stills / day to day drivel off there but I object very strongly to this bizarre idea that nobody should post happy photos because there's some unpleasant stuff going on right now. News flash: there's awful stuff happening all the time. Just because the people dying from infectious diseases aren't in your neighbourhood doesn't mean they matter any less. Obeying government guidelines doesn't have to be miserable.

Yes -- the guilt/martyr thing is definitely a thing. There's been a great deal of kerfuffle on kayaking Facebook groups because the British Canoe Association has said, no kayaking or canoeing. None. Zero. Bupkes. It's banned. It isn't. The government has said feck all about watersports. Now, the BCA has as much actual enforcement power as the BHS, or the glass of wine in front of me. But people take it on board (pun intended) and treat it as a prohibition with the power of law behind it. The issues here are that most people have to travel to go kayaking -- fair enough, don't. The other reason is that if you get into trouble, you are potentially exposing a whole RNLI crew or mountain rescue team. Same reason we aren't 'allowed' in the hills. Again, the only legally enforceable part of this are the travel restrictions. Mountaineering Scotland has as much enforcement power as that very same glass of wine. But if you live on a loch or at the base of a mountain (some people do... not me, sadly), then the travel prohibitions don't apply, and if you're an experienced mountaineer or kayaker, you can make a pretty good call as to what you can do that would be highly unlikely to end in a rescue (same as us riding, but kayaks behave more predictably than horses on flatwater). But for the love of God, don't post it on social media. The shame! So much shame! I got into a wee argument on a thread where some people had gone flatwater kayaking on the loch out their front door, and then they foolishly posted pictures of their lovely day out, happily paddling on a glassy loch -- bright sun, no wind. Once we'd established that travel bans did not apply to the people in question, and what they did was, realistically, safer than most people's attempts at DIY, the crux of the reasoning behind the public shaming was that you should not be doing fun things, like kayaking, while people are dying during the pandemic.

One of the kayakers I was arguing with was horsey, and she brazenly announced that she was also not riding her horses because she was supporting the NHS. I, of course, did not respond because I did not have the chutzpah to say that I was still riding my horse.

I think it makes people feel better, like they have some control over a situation no one has any control over. And humans really love public shaming. If you're stressed and sad about COVID and lockdown, shaming someone on Facebook can make you feel really great about yourself. For more insight about that, I recommend Jon Ronson's 'So You've Been Publically Shamed,' which explores the social psychology of public shaming and why people get off on it, and he's funny.

 

[Frumpoon]

I do when i have friends with cancer whom can't get treated.

Surgery or chemotherapy? Chemo is still going ahead in my neck of the woods and the regional Cancer Alliance should be informed if Trusts are putting treatments on hold, that's quite serious.

 

[Tiddlypom]

This is the Royal Yachting Association slant on recreational boating during lockdown. There is a common theme with horse owners, including boat owners being banned from visiting and maintaining their property at boat yards and marinas. Private recreational boating has, like riding, not been specifically prohibited, but in practice it has virtually stopped.

https://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/n...and-information-for-recreational-boaters.aspx


If significant numbers of people are seen to be taking part in recreational boating or going to their boats for whatever excuse they can think of while the general movement restrictions are in force then the Government might see fit to introduce a specific prohibition on recreational boating. Given that regulators are often much more reluctant to lift prohibitions than they are to impose them, recreational boating is likely to be able to resume more quickly if it is not specifically prohibited.

Many marinas and moorings across the country have closed completely as a result of the Coronavirus crisis, the result is that boat owners cannot get access to their boats to undertake essential maintenance and security checks. This measure has been implemented by marina and moorings operators based on guidance from their trade body which we consider incorrectly interprets the Coronavirus restriction regulations and Government guidance.

There is no reference in the regulations to the closure of marinas and they do not give powers in this respect to trade bodies or any harbour authority or individual marina operators. This provides scope for limited and controlled access for owners to their boats whilst implementing hygiene and social distancing measures.

The RYA believes that this situation requires urgent action and we are engaging with marina companies and harbour authorities directly to ensure a common understanding of all of the issues on both sides and to collaborate on an urgent solution.

Bro knows of some yacht clubs which have announced that they will expel any members found out on the water with their boats during lockdown. This is at least in part through wanting to reduce call outs for the volunteer RNLI crews.

 

[ycbm]

Likewise the there was never any need to ban golf. Social distancing on a golf course is a piece of cake.

Fishing is another one, the pegs are many metres apart.

.

 

[Caol Ila]

Yeah, fishing you have to socially distance, or you'll land a hook in someone's eye! I don't get why fishermen (and women I guess) were being hounded.

 

[Iris1995]

Some livery yards may have had to claim they were leisure businesses to claim financial help via Govt grants/loans but by doing so they had to close as leisure businesses were required to close under emergency laws. Not necessarily a simple matter of doing what their clients wanted.

 

[Abi90]

Some livery yards may have had to claim they were leisure businesses to claim financial help via Govt grants/loans but by doing so they had to close as leisure businesses were required to close under emergency laws. Not necessarily a simple matter of doing what their clients wanted.

But they aren’t really closed if they are still being paid to look after horses? And if they are still receiving full livery bills, and possibly more if they have put part and DIY liveries on full, then I can’t see how they qualify for grants/loans when they are making the same, if not more, money. Surely they would only qualify for financial help if they had to kick liveries off and therefore reduce their income?