When would you expect livery yards to reopen

I think it's unacceptable to prevent liveries seeing their horses aside from in very rare circumstances where it really isn't possible to put any alternative measures in place. I would certainly have moved mine if my yard had taken that attitude (not that it was ever a risk here!).

I also think that the reactions of the BHS and other bodies has been pretty rubbish - facilitating yard owners in this sort of measure, and discouraging people from riding even where this is possible in terms of biosecurity. Given the equine obesity crisis, turning away and not working horses at this time of year is terrible advice. Obviously I'm not advocating putting equine welfare above human welfare - but there is a middle ground, where biosecurity measures can protect humans while maintaining suitable workloads and managements to protect horses.
 
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Yes -- JFDT. I'm far more pissed off at the BHS than I am at yards. People in a crisis are terrible at thinking for themselves. They just are. They want to be told what to do by someone of authority, even if the authority hasn't a clue and isn't making decisions based on the available scientific evidence (nevermind the BHS... our government can't even manage that). They don't care. They want someone to pat them on the head and tell them what they should do. Thankfully, the one thing I'm happy our government didn't do, unlike several other European countries and some US states, was explicitly ban riding and stop people from going to yards. All they said was that equine welfare counted as essential travel. Yay. But that all went tits up when the BHS flapped and pretty much screwed over horse owners in favor of panicky yards implementing any and all draconian measures they wanted. Rational thought and planning got launched out the window, like someone put it on a rocket. Initially, a fair few people on this forum supported that too, when everyone thought this would only be a couple weeks. We could all suck it up and martyr ourselves and our horses and deal with that for a couple weeks. But it was never going to be a couple weeks. Obviously.

As a pleb owner, a nobody, a peon, it feels as though there are no major organizations nor publications in the UK equestrian industry that are advocates or voices for people like me. If I'd been at my old yard, say, on part livery, and suddenly forced to be on full livery and paying extra if my horse needed meds or whatever, what recourse would I have had? None. Other than moving, which isn't easy in lockdown, although with husling, it might have been possible. But that seems crazy and terribly unscrupulous, and in my case, detrimental to my horse's welfare because she's 27 (as of three days ago) and needs the steady work.

There is a middle ground between equine welfare and human safety. And if I'd been at a yard that banned owners, I would have lost. my. sh*t. And moved heaven and earth to shift the horse. Again. To my damn backyard (probably not...Glasgow council might have a view).
 
Coal ILA I think you are right, to me the BHS issued instructions based on the opinions and personal views of those in their upper echelons based on what happened in other countries not based on the advice given by this government.

It is incumbent on those in positions of authority to issue instructions based on the advice they were given and not their own personal bias. The BHS has abused their position as far as I am concerned. It hasn’t personally affected me but it has affected so many
 
I completely agree with everyone who says the BHS was dreadful. They removed the livelihoods of trainers, dentists and physios for no reason at all. They told people not to ride, to protect the NHS, when that was not government advice.

I'm also annoyed about the vets, they could have done a lot of their work socially distanced. There was never any justification for refusing to vaccinate all horses. Whoever made them should be paying the cost of restarting the jabs.

And the farriers governing body the same. Few horses need holding to shoe or trim.

Those decisions by governing bodies dumped thousands of people unwillingly and unnecessarily into the furlough or self employed schemes, which is partly why they will now be reduced because of having too many people in them to support.
 
The economy would be doing so much better now if those who could work with social distancing had been allowed to. Farriers and freelance trainers etc should have been allowed to take their own decisions based upon advice.

Even riding schools could potentially have kept some income coming in with private lessons for more experienced riders only. Providing they had suitable safeguards in place.
 
I realise that we are all starting to look at the current situation with the benefit of some hindsight - which is a wonderful thing! However, I have been banging on from the outset that slavish obedience to one single rule applying to everyone, without regard to circumstances and due diligence, is ludicrous and counter-productive. Yes - it is great that most folk have tried to follow it (apart from the guy who proposed it, if the front of my Telegraph is to be believed today!!!!!) and it does seem to have helped the NHS cope. But there has been a lot of collateral damage that might have been mitigated if some credit had been given to people's intelligence to risk-assess for themselves. For example, Mr Sainsbury, at the beginning, kindly offered designated times for the over-70s to shop. Great idea - but when I took one look at the length of the queue of folk all entering the store at the same time I turned around and drove home. Personal decision based on risk-assessment.
There will always be idiots - but we cannot live through times like these basing everything on the lowest common denominator. At the moment, there has never been a truer saying that "rules were made for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men".
Rant over.
 
It isn't even slavish obedience to the actual rules either, but in many case slavish obedience to something they have heard might be a rule and then embellished a bit.

I have been stunned at the sheer lack of reading comprehension in the general population, and horrified that this extends to senior police officers and government ministers.

There are still people out there banging on about 1 hour exercise, only leaving the house once a day, only key workers being allowed to work and all manner of other utterly made up rules.
 
South Wales police tried to use the BHS rules to tell people that it was illegal to ride, and tried to fine someone out hacking! They back-pedalled pretty quickly when challenged (on FB) and instead opted for the guilt trip approach :rolleyes:.
 
DirectorFury said:
South Wales police tried to use the BHS rules to tell people that it was illegal to ride, and tried to fine someone out hacking! They back-pedalled pretty quickly when challenged (on FB) and instead opted for the guilt trip approach :rolleyes:.
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That is awful. And will fuel all the martyrs on Facebook. Not, I might add the people who have decided not to ride and are keeping that to themselves, but the judgey ones
 
Our yard slavishly followed the BHS' advice without much intellectual consideration of what the waffle meant. That's why we can't hack out. The BHS had some words to the effect of 'think about how you will be percieved in the wider comminity and risks.' And for some reason, they interpreted that to mean that it would 'look bad' if people were seen out hacking on the roads, and I suppose there is a greater risk of an accident on the roads, but I'm not that keen on this whole chaos theory approach to protecting the NHS (something might happen, and you might need emergency services). How dare those horse riders have fun during a crisis! It's bonkers. BHS also recommended not riding unless it was 'essential' and the yard told us to consider not riding unless it was 'essential.' But at least they left the definition of essential up to us! Lots of people have chosen to not ride, but some of us are.

I only fault them a little, though. After all, they didn't close completely (though the emails threatening to do so because a few liveries were not quite following the rules were unappreciated... nothing like punshing everyone for the sins of a few). Like I said in my last post, they panicked and were desperate to be told what to do. A pandemic is so outside of people's comprehension, and it's more like a bad movie than anything they can process. That's why bodies like the BHS needed to take a breath and do a better job offering not-flapping guidance to keep horses, yard owners, and horse owners safe, sane, and healthy. Obviously they also panicked and flapped and found bogus ways to interpret government guidelines, but it's their freakin' job to issue guidelines.
 
DirectorFury said:
South Wales police tried to use the BHS rules to tell people that it was illegal to ride, and tried to fine someone out hacking! They back-pedalled pretty quickly when challenged (on FB) and instead opted for the guilt trip approach :rolleyes:.
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Outrageous. The police are there to enforce the law, not the random musings of lay people on social media even when those people may hold positions within organisations such as the BHS. The most frightening thing about this whole situation is how willing people are to try to enforce rules which have no basis in law, and, often, no basis even in science or logic. It certainly explains how people behaved in historic police states...
 
Caol Ila said:
A pandemic is so outside of people's comprehension ... but it's their freakin' job to issue guidelines.
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Maybe if there were more scientists in the quasi-political world, there'd be more understanding and anticipation that these things happen, will continue to happen, and need to be handled in a calm, evidence-based manner. When you hire people from the same sorts of backgrounds, all you end up with is a glorified echo chamber. This is an issue in the government, in politics, and in all sorts of lesser organisations.
 
We have been banned from riding/exercising if any sort since the start of lockdown (so 6+ weeks). I’m getting myself very down about it but having seen this post and hearing of some that haven’t even seen their horses for the same amount of time has put it more into perspective. I understand our yard owners decision but going from riding 5-6 days a week to absolutely nothing, especially when it is your outlet for work/life stresses is incredibly hard. Still, I should be grateful I have been to see him daily. It’s just a horrible situation for everyone
 
It might have been helpful for the BHS to share the information that folk who end up in A&E with broken bones will currently not be given a GA to set those bones unless it is deemed to be an emergency. This may well result in a rather poorer long term healing outcome than would have been expected in normal times.

Bro just advises that folk are sensible, though where he based is it’s cyclists who are taking risks and ending up mashed, rather than horse riders. So continuing to exercise a known steady horse would probably be ‘sensible’, but deciding to sort out a remedial horse who is known to deck riders on a regular basis would not be at the current time.
 
JFTDWS said:
Maybe if there were more scientists in the quasi-political world, there'd be more understanding and anticipation that these things happen, will continue to happen, and need to be handled in a calm, evidence-based manner. When you hire people from the same sorts of backgrounds, all you end up with is a glorified echo chamber. This is an issue in the government, in politics, and in all sorts of lesser organisations.
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Definitely. Look at Germany's handling of this, for instance. I kind of want to move there. They elect a better calibre of politician -- physicists instead of failed Daily Mail journalists.
 
Tiddlypom said:
It might have been helpful for the BHS to share the information that folk who end up in A&E with broken bones will currently not be given a GA to set those bones unless it is deemed to be an emergency. This may well result in a rather poorer long term healing outcome than would have been expected in normal times.

Bro just advises that folk are sensible, though where he based is it’s cyclists who are taking risks and ending up mashed, rather than horse riders. So continuing to exercise a known steady horse would probably be ‘sensible’, but deciding to sort out a remedial horse who is known to deck riders on a regular basis would not be at the current time.
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Quite, more accidents from garden trampolines and no one tried to ban those. Cycling is positively encouraged, but encouraging inexperienced cyclists is likely higher risk than horse riding within your capabilities.

Horse riding accident stats include the full range of equestrian activity, the risks of hacking and schooling within your limits are pretty low.
 
Tiddlypom said:
It might have been helpful for the BHS to share the information that folk who end up in A&E with broken bones will currently not be given a GA to set those bones unless it is deemed to be an emergency. This may well result in a rather poorer long term healing outcome than would have been expected in normal times.

Bro just advises that folk are sensible, though where he based is it’s cyclists who are taking risks and ending up mashed, rather than horse riders. So continuing to exercise a known steady horse would probably be ‘sensible’, but deciding to sort out a remedial horse who is known to deck riders on a regular basis would not be at the current time.
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This is ironic considering your former comments that I should cycle to care for my horses rather than drive let alone exercise them.

I’m not sure of the reasons for not giving a GA (Presumably because they have to have a free ICU bed just in case?) when necessary but I think it’s disgusting not to give the appropriate treatment required especially given most hospitals are not overwhelmed with Covid cases as far as reports go.
 
Caol Ila said:
Our yard slavishly followed the BHS' advice without much intellectual consideration of what the waffle meant. That's why we can't hack out. The BHS had some words to the effect of 'think about how you will be percieved in the wider comminity and risks.' And for some reason, they interpreted that to mean that it would 'look bad' if people were seen out hacking on the roads, and I suppose there is a greater risk of an accident on the roads, but I'm not that keen on this whole chaos theory approach to protecting the NHS (something might happen, and you might need emergency services). How dare those horse riders have fun during a crisis! It's bonkers. BHS also recommended not riding unless it was 'essential' and the yard told us to consider not riding unless it was 'essential.' But at least they left the definition of essential up to us! Lots of people have chosen to not ride, but some of us are.

I only fault them a little, though. After all, they didn't close completely (though the emails threatening to do so because a few liveries were not quite following the rules were unappreciated... nothing like punshing everyone for the sins of a few). Like I said in my last post, they panicked and were desperate to be told what to do. A pandemic is so outside of people's comprehension, and it's more like a bad movie than anything they can process. That's why bodies like the BHS needed to take a breath and do a better job offering not-flapping guidance to keep horses, yard owners, and horse owners safe, sane, and healthy. Obviously they also panicked and flapped and found bogus ways to interpret government guidelines, but it's their freakin' job to issue guidelines.
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I have to say I’m reconsidering my BHS Gold membership in light of their inappropriate embellishing of government guidance. Luckily I haven’t been affected at all but I’m furious on behalf of those completely denied access to their horses as a result. Horse owning is pretty niche and unusual in that often you don’t/can’t keep them at home unlike other pets yet many of us feel that they’re our family/pet/emotional support or even child substitute for want of a better description. They’re not just an animal to us. They’re relatively few of us and I do think regular welfare checks are essential as a minimum.
 
Regardless of what the BHS puts out there is it legal to be kept from your property? Your livery yard owner Surely cannot legally stop you riding, they cannot stop you moving your horses either.

We can all moan about what the BHS is saying but from what I have read they have just parroted the statement that you should not put pressure on the NHS however it is up to you to make that decision. That does not give your yard owner the right to keep you from your horse nor charge extra when they are keeping from looking after your animal yourself.

if you aren’t happy then leave your yard. If our yard owner had kept up the no riding then I’d imagine many would have left as their horses needed exercised and they needed their time with them. He didn’t he just asked us not to take risks and to maintain distances.
 
Sussexbythesea said:
This is ironic considering your former comments that I should cycle to care for my horses rather than drive let alone exercise them.

I’m not sure of the reasons for not giving a GA (Presumably because they have to have a free ICU bed just in case?) when necessary but I think it’s disgusting not to give the appropriate treatment required especially given most hospitals are not overwhelmed with Covid cases as far as reports go.
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You think that it is ‘disgusting‘ that GAs are being rationed at the moment :rolleyes:?

The reasons for not giving a GA unless it is an emergency is because the GA presents a much elevated risk of inadvertent CV19 transmission to the surgical team, especially to the anaesthetist. You will have read about the significant number of medics who have died of CV19. Much work is currently going on as to how to allow more routine operations to
take place, but with satisfactory protection for the hospital staff.

Cycling itself is not particularly dangerous as long as it is done sensibly, but in my bro’s area there are many more cyclists than usual out, often with little experience, and they are burning off their lockdown frustrations at speed and crashing. Life threatening injuries will always go to theatre if necessary, but currently not the more run of the mill ones.

This is the text that bro (a surgeon) sent me. It is, of course, referring to cyclists but the general principle of what happens if you break bones atm still stands.

During this time of lockdown boredom taking risks on the road and trails in ***** is becoming a major cause of injuries.
Cars and motorcycles taking the opportunity to speed along the almost empty roads leads to the 'usual' life changing or threatening accidents as per last night.
However the most common disease which has led to emergency major surgery in the last few weeks is " Bicycle related injury".
Only the really serious incidents are getting to theatre as with the increased anaesthetic risk of operations with the virus, less life changing injuries are being accepted and treated by slings or plaster and wait.
From fractured femurs and arm bones for the orthopedic surgeons and ruptured bowels for me, the cyclists are becoming the most common cause of major trauma operations.
Do readjust your thinking when both on cycle paths and off-road trail biking.
A lot more people than usual are getting their cycles out to burn off both calories and frustration.
Just remember as you set off on your bike to let off steam, that many people do not 'do' pain and physical immobility very well. So being stuck inside at home with a painful broken major bone for months will not improve your sense of humour.
Be sensible‘

So be aware of that in your risk assessments.

ETA And don’t blame my bro, he is not an orthopaedic surgeon, so that is not his choice to make.
 
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I can believe that. The major road that goes to the yard has become a cyclist slalom course. I like riding my bike as much as anyone, but no amount of money could ever convince me to ride a bike (or a horse) on that road. It's fast, narrow, busy, and wiggly.
 
If it's bicycle related does that mean just the bike involved?

I've not seen any reckless riding around here but then it's not really set up to build up mass speed.

heavy sedation and a local?
 
ester said:
If it's bicycle related does that mean just the bike involved?
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Mostly, yes. I did ask if there were any cyclist on horse rider incidents, and he hadn’t heard of any.

I didn’t ask for any more info on how the orthopods are dealing with fractures, but I too imagine that sedation and local anaesthetic is being used more.
 
Does anyone know of a horsey publication that would take an op ed on this issue? Not this one (lol). Something less in thrall to industry.
 
ester said:
I've not seen any reckless riding around here
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Plenty of deathwish cyclists here. My route to the yard is on part of the usual RideLondon/Surrey route which might explain why it's so attractive to them. It's always men. Current idiocies are riding 3 abreast, 1m apart; ignoring the cycle path and riding down the middle of the lane, teaching your very young child to ride a bike on the 40mph stretch, swerving out to the middle of the lane without indicating to overtake someone far infront without checking behind (on the 50mph stretch), riding without lights/hivis/helmet on the 50mph stretch at dusk and wearing only black...I could go on.

Add to that the increase in parents teaching their kids to drive as the roads are quieter. And guys testing out their muscle cars on the 50mph stretch because the roads are quieter.

Going to the yard and back can be quite interesting nerve-wise!
 
Sussexbythesea said:
This is ironic considering your former comments that I should cycle to care for my horses rather than drive let alone exercise them.

I’m not sure of the reasons for not giving a GA (Presumably because they have to have a free ICU bed just in case?) when necessary but I think it’s disgusting not to give the appropriate treatment required especially given most hospitals are not overwhelmed with Covid cases as far as reports go.
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Avoiding surgical treatment where possible is happening everywhere, not just in the UK. Surgeries are carried out in emergencies, but at the moment anything that can be treated in another way will be. It is probably the best solution for all as most would not want to be in the hospital recovering from a surgery right now. Later on there will be some who need corrective surgeries, but others will heal just fine. Some may have an outcome not as good as it would have been with a surgery, but we are in an extraordinary situation. It is of course not ideal, but honestly speaking I am more concerned about people having treatments for life threatening illnesses delayed, to me this is a huge tragedy and way worse than potentially having some small limitation in movement of a limb going forward. And do remember that doctors are people too - they don't want to be taking risks for their own and their family's health above those absolutely required.
 
Winters100 said:
Avoiding surgical treatment where possible is happening everywhere, not just in the UK. Surgeries are carried out in emergencies, but at the moment anything that can be treated in another way will be. It is probably the best solution for all as most would not want to be in the hospital recovering from a surgery right now. Later on there will be some who need corrective surgeries, but others will heal just fine. Some may have an outcome not as good as it would have been with a surgery, but we are in an extraordinary situation. It is of course not ideal, but honestly speaking I am more concerned about people having treatments for life threatening illnesses delayed, to me this is a huge tragedy and way worse than potentially having some small limitation in movement of a limb going forward. And do remember that doctors are people too - they don't want to be taking risks for their own and their family's health above those absolutely required.
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Right so you’re left crippled and in pain and cannot work for the rest of your life because you should have had surgery? Or does this only apply to people who doctors think don’t deserve it because it’s their choice? Of course that that would be totally unethical. Just as well you’re not one. Surgery should obviously avoided wherever possible in normal circumstances but performed for best outcomes where needed. And yes I’m sure some surgery can wait. A friend who broke her arm just prior to lock down made her own choice not to have surgeryas she wanted to avoid hospitalisation.
 
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