When WOULD you hit a horse? Or would you?

Damnation said:
, or had a quick word with whoever did so it doesn't happen again..
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You surely don't think that's in any way foolproof? Or that I haven't had more than "a quick word" with him?

Luckily, what I HAVE done is condition the pony to stay out of the feed store for long enough for me to catch the door open and do something about it.
 
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Then he should not be allowed on the yard unsupervised if he is so prone to leaving stable doors open.
Sorry but that is my opinion. If he is incapable of closing a stable door adequately I would seriously question his safety around horses.
Closing a door is a very small and important part of owning a horse..

ETA: What if your pony bypassed the feed room one day and ended up on the road somewhere..
 
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cptrayes said:
You surely don't think that's in any way foolproof? Or that I haven't had more than "a quick word" with him?
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Is beating him up really 'foolproof' though? If he's anything like the shetlands I've owned over the years (and Im guessing you're going to tell me he isn't ;) ) ..he'll creep closer and closer, pushing his luck more and more each time in the persuit of food until he's eventually back inside, munching his head off out of the 500 random bags of opened unsoaked sugardbeet you apparently keep in your feed store... and there'll be no one around to beat the living daylights out of him this time.
Put a lock on it. Dont give your OH the key. Do what you have to do, just dont beat your pony up for doing, essentially, nothing wrong..
 
I have walloped my horse and would again if I felt the circumstances warrented it.

My current horse can be very nappy and a bit of a sod. We are working and his manners are improving but he's still not overly respectful at times.

I carry a whip out hacking (he has a habit of whipping round and p***ing off in the opposite direction. If we are somewhere where it is safe for me to deal with his behaviour without smcking him then I will if (like we were the other day) we were heading backwards for a mahoosive ditch then he gets a wallop. I use this to get him far enough away from the ditch / lorry etc to be out of danger before carrying on calmly. I've needed to do this three times since I've had him, twice in the first week and once the other day (ditch). He's napping less and less as we go on but I like to have the back up.

I don't carry one for schooling as he doesn't need it.
 
Can I just say, I am really angry now! So angry I am going to type in CAPITALS!

I HAVE TYPED 3 PERFECTLY GOOD RESPONSES TO THIS THREAD AND NO-ONE HAS QUOTED ME AND NOW THE SHETLAND ARGUMENT HAS TAKEN OVER MY POSTS HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND! NOT IMPRESSED!

I AM NOW GOING TO TURN OFF MY COMPUTER AND STOMP OFF IN A PROPER HUFF!
 
cptrayes said:
If people are stupid enough to hit a horse for something it hasn't done or hasn't understood then they deserve what they get, even if the horse doesn't.

I doubt that you are right about Andy's horses because horses are flight animals and anything threatening and unusual will cause most horses to run.

Of course if you use a whip in the course of training, it is not random and the horse does understand, provided you have your timing right, that he is not to repeat the behaviour which has been punished. To say, as some people have, that a horse cannot learn from being hit is total and utter nonsense. It learns to avoid the behaviour it was doing immediately before, or while, it was hit.
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That's just it though, to his horses Andy is neither threatening nor unusual (I'm not his mother by the way) and it is possible to wave a whip at a pony who isn't used to them and get little more than a blank look.
I agree with your other comments but I'm not sure you do. But then why would anyone want a shetland in the first place;)
 
aimeetb said:
Can I just say, I am really angry now! So angry I am going to type in CAPITALS!

I HAVE TYPED 3 PERFECTLY GOOD RESPONSES TO THIS THREAD AND NO-ONE HAS QUOTED ME AND NOW THE SHETLAND ARGUMENT HAS TAKEN OVER MY POSTS HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND! NOT IMPRESSED!

I AM NOW GOING TO TURN OFF MY COMPUTER AND STOMP OFF IN A PROPER HUFF!
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LMAO :D
 
I agree Aimeetb, the Shetland's had too much attention from people who don't bother to read posts about why none of their bright ideas will work. Of course what I did is not foolproof, but it's worked so far and I hope it won't be needed again, but if it is it will buy me some minutes to get things safe again.

NOw, someone answer Aimeetb will you :) ??
 
cptrayes said:
I agree Aimeetb, the Shetland's had too much attention from people who don't bother to read posts about why none of their bright ideas will work. Of course what I did is not foolproof, but it's worked so far and I hope it won't be needed again, but if it is it will buy me some minutes to get things safe again.

NOw, someone answer Aimeetb will you :) ??
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I can actually imagine it now...

I have a rather funny imagine in my head of a little shetland pony creeping around a stable yard (to the theme of Pink Panther) totally unaware that.. as he edges ever closer to scrumptious 500 bags of unsoaked sugarbeet and that illusive open door.. you are hiding, crouched down behind a bag of food, sweating and brandishing a rolling pin.

..thats made my weekend :D

Now, If you'll all excuse me, I have a dog to beat up. He's bound to do something wrong at somepoint this evening so I'll just batter him now and get the telling off over and done with.

Ciao :cool:
 
I said a few pages back that there was nobody on the thread I wouldn't send a horse to because it'd get beaten up, I think I've found one that I wouldn't send one to because they seem a bit nuts ;)

Seriously, how hard is to close a door? If people do struggle to close a door, then don't have a free range pony. Both of these seem quite reasonable solutions ;) Why a National Park means you can't buy a feed bin I have literally no idea.

Your first post, booting the pony the arse to get it's head out of dry sugar beet - fair enough, saving the pony from itself, no doubt didn't have a headcollar on or something to grab and tug - so boot it before it eats enough to make itself ill. All susequent posts suggesting that was actually a conditioning process to make the feed room a place he doesn't want to be just makes you sound crackers :D
 
Lady La La said:
Shouting at my shetland, and kicking him on his arse would do bob all to keep him away from food...

However it would probably do rather a lot to make him develope a rather strong fear/disslike for me. Not something I plan on doing anytime soon. I like that my animals like me.
I also like that I'm capable of making sure all the doors on my yard are closed as and when they should be. :)
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I'm afraid that I am guilty of being a Shetland butt kicker too. Almost four years ago this 10hh Shetland mare who had been hand reared and let off with murder most of her life (18 years old) then came into my life. She was a little S**t and I am being kind with my phrasing. I was ready to get rid after 5 weeks but decided I wasn't going to back down and be beat. Cue another one of her sessions where she decided to try and tell me who I could or couldn't lead in from the field. She charged, spun and raised two hind feet at me while I was leading in another horse just missing my face, my left leg then inadvertently left the ground and caught her clean on the arse. She took off a few strides and then turned to looked at me with a face that I can only say was riddled with sweet surprise. She has never tried it since and has never had a hand (or leg) lifted to her since. All she needed was someone to stop being scared of her and stand up to her. She is, by the way, lovely now even around children :D I don't think I was cruel and she certainly didn't hate me for it because she follows me everywhere ;) Oh and if say 'BACK' now, she does it, food or no food.
 
My brother has a highly intelligent and well trained spaniel who will insist on stealing food. My brother beats it and terrifies it and the dog, who adores my brother is scared to death of it's punishment but simply cannot stop itself from eating the food. It is a behaviour it can't control. How a shetland is supposed to make this connection is beyond me.

The solution is simply to remove food from it's reach. To do otherwise is just cruel and unneccesary. If you had a partner who continually left the front door/gate open allowing animals onto the road, would you beat them then - or ditch the wan**r.

I will hit animals, although I woudn't hit an animal which was trying to kill me, I would vacate the area.

I will use a smack to reinforce a message which is being ignored. Maybe the message could be conveyed more effectively, I'm not too concerned, the horse gets the message immediately and I have well behaved animals. I am also somewhat suprised at how many vicious animals people have encountered. I've had 40/50 horses & ponies and my current one is the first to be threatening.
 
siennamum said:
My brother has a highly intelligent and well trained spaniel who will insist on stealing food. My brother beats it and terrifies it and the dog, who adores my brother is scared to death of it's punishment but simply cannot stop itself from eating the food. It is a behaviour it can't control. How a shetland is supposed to make this connection is beyond me.

The solution is simply to remove food from it's reach. To do otherwise is just cruel and unneccesary. If you had a partner who continually left the front door/gate open allowing animals onto the road, would you beat them then - or ditch the wan**r.

I will hit animals, although I woudn't hit an animal which was trying to kill me, I would vacate the area.

I will use a smack to reinforce a message which is being ignored. Maybe the message could be conveyed more effectively, I'm not too concerned, the horse gets the message immediately and I have well behaved animals. I am also somewhat suprised at how many vicious animals people have encountered. I've had 40/50 horses & ponies and my current one is the first to be threatening.
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omg poor dog - is it genuineley hungry - why doesnt your brother keep food away from it so it cant steal it??? Your brother terrorises it and you know???? Tell your brother to keep the food out of reach, feed the poor thing and if this fails report him!!!!
Poor poor dog
 
AndySpooner said:
I love this forum, for a horse forum where people are supposed to like or even love horses here people are lining up to brag to one another about hitting their horses with whips and how good it is for the horse. One or two including their dogs and children among their hapless victims.
Why do some people miss the point and focus on completely the wrong thing. No wonder there are so many confused horses out there.
The horse that was looking for sandwiches wasn't dangerous, it was looking for food. People mistook his intentions. When I found out what was going on the horse had to be moved,not punished. Some people rewarded his interest in them by feeding him others were terrified by him, he didn't know which monkey was which. I don't need a piece of anyone's mind over that, and they can take their fleas with them.
People backing their horses into cars all over the place, nothing but a whip to save their life.
And what about the professional horse, he gets a crack because being a professional should know better.

You really couldn't make some of it up, fantastic.
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This has to be one of the most sanctimonious posts I have ever read.

Again and again you do the Parelli thing and blame people for 'not understanding' that the horse was simply looking for sandwiches, you knew that but the people he mugged did not and you are responsible for that because you allowed it to happen. My horses would never in a million years be allowed to terrify people the way yours has, I consider this to be bad manners, but not the poor horse's fault, yours and yours alone.

It is hugely interesting that you castigate people on this thread for 'using violence' when you defended the Parelli's when they used a kind of violence which was far greater than a short, sharp smack.

It must be truly wonderful having your 'vast experience', but I find it such a shame that you have stopped learning because you think you already know it all, a true horseman never ever stops learning.
 
queenbee said:
But, horses, humans, dogs they all have individual natures and need individual handling, there is no 'one template for all situations' My mare ebony couldn't take it if you hit her, but if my younster tries any cr ap, he could deal with a clout if warrented.

1. Never repremand in anger

2. Learn to read the individual (horse, dog or human)

3. Learn to read situations and

4. react quickly and appropriately to the situation and the individual

5. Accept responsibility, don't just blame your animals
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Excellent advice
 
Just wanted to add to all the 'my way is the highway because...' posts, the reactions of our pony to the concept of being hit by a human as punishment. Read the whole thing before you comment, if you do lol.

She bit, and kicked, and would spin and kick her handler in the ribs to get them to drop the lead rope to get them to let go so she could bog off and eat grass. She kicked a full grown man hard enough in the ribs that the breath was knocked out of him and he fell to the ground, so safe? No. Safe to lead with other horses? No. She'd do the same to them.

So my horse and I, between us, civilised her. Minimal violence, maximum threat. First we dealt with her kicking my horse as I led them both - as she went for her, we'd BOTH spin on her, threaten to bite/kick (on her part) or hit (on mine) several hells out of her, but threaten only, like in the herd. Within a day or two she'd stopped. Then she started trying to bit me as I led them. Here my horse helped me out - as the pony stretched her neck forward to bite me, my horse would go for her, teeth bared, and I'd spin round, hand raised. A few days later that was a distant memory too. The biting when tied up had the same behaviour from me, plus the odd tap on the nose if the first warning didn't work. Not once did she become headshy or scared of me or my horse. She was always given fair warning, so she knew what we didn't like, and the actual hit, if the warning was ignored, was a sting and no more. Kicking out was treated similarly. Threat, then if she ignored the threat, sting with bare hand. Both behaviours were eradicated quickly and as we asserted our authority, being kind in all ways, threatening before any actual punishment so she'd know what was going on, she came to trust and to be affectionate and truly relaxed.

Many years later, we were on a yard where a young girl tended to lose her temper with her horse. On two occasions my pony obviously appealed to me to stop this, with her eyes and body language, being visibly upset by what was going on. On both those occasions the girl had lost her temper completely, and was taking out her bad day on her horse. She was asking unreasonable requests of it, and then hitting it profusely when it could not comply. There was no warning, the horse's eyes were wide and white, and it was visibly scared. I don't think I will forget either of those scenes in a hurry either. On one of them, we were in the arena with her, and my pony became increasingly edgy and scared, and when I took her away, after the other girl wouldn't see reason, she just stood and buried her head in my arms for reassurance.

From a horse's point of view, the threat of violence in the herd is everyday. Actual violence is not, and is only issued by a sane individual if the clear warning has been ignored. The violence that actually arrives even then, is usually minimal. A similar reaction from humans they can understand, but violence without warning related to a specific behaviour, they do not. I would hope also, that if you would never give a stinging slap if a horse has not responded to warnings and is about to bite/kick you, that you only use the lightest of aids when riding. A kick or a harsh use of the spur is far worse than that!
 
Quick Q (although it will probably get lost due to crazy shetland training antics) - those who are against smacking horses or husbands, do you or would you use electric fencing?
 
queenbee said:
1 beat the cr ap out of the human who was negligent enough to leave the door open, not the animal with the FAR smaller brain and FAR less reasoning power!!!!

2. Put your sodding hand in your pocket and invest in a self closing hinge for the door since you and you're OH do not have brains that work.

3. Better still don't own a horse

I seriously hope you are joking, a smack for dangerous bolshy behaviour or to prevent an escilating situation (snap the horse out of it to save any injury) or to counter aggressive and again dangerous behaviour if ok in my opinion.

but this attitude of yours is quite barbaric :(
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Excellent answer - just had the same thing in my head waiting to be typed after eading through the rest of the posts.

I have one of those springy gate things on my garden gate so that there is no risk of the gate being left open and the dogs getting out.
 
i've never walloped any horse...

i've a welsh D that can be very very bolshy at times and shes reprimanded appropriately.

once when she constantly pulled free and barged when i was leading her so i dug my elbow into her shoulder and smacked her twice with the leadrope. she didnt repeat the behaviour.
once she ran me over and got the same treatment-she's not done it since.
she hasnt bitten me for a while cause shes knows if she does i'll bite her on the ear.
she used to try and barge me for the field bowl so i smacked her on the shoulder with a schooling whip and again shes not repeated the behaviour. she followed me from the stable block to field with me holdin her bucket and even tho she really wanted it she kept out of my personal space and when she tried to come infront of me and i growled at her she backed right out.
i carry a whip when jumping as without warning she may decide to try an take the p*ss and i also sometimes carry one on a hack because she may nap. if she does nap, then she gets a smack on the arse. once i didnt have a whip and she napped when i asked her to go in the school, so i smacked her with my hand and she walked in no problem.

before anyone says anything, i've had her six years and never beaten her up ever. as a result of these actions i described she respects me and my space but shes most certainly not scared of me and we've a very good bond. some other people who have met just cannot get on with her because they wont reprimand her when shes naughty and so she takes the absolute p*ss out of them. as it is, and as i've said, she has a healthy respect of me my sister and my mum cause she knows we wont take any misbehaviour from her and she's a very happy horse for it-we get along great.
i wouldnt treat another horse in that way before getting to know them as an individual. some horses don't need to be reprimanded in the way my horse was-but it's now VERY rarely she will act up as we acted accordingly when she did and shes a well mannered individual now.
i'd never hit my sisters horse and he doesnt need it as he's very voice sensitive-if he trots at you with his ears back and you growl at him he'll go the other way.
they're all different. i'd never hit a young horse as at their age (most cases i believe) you can teach them in such a way they never need to be smacked or seriously reprimanded.
none of our horses are scared of us for it-and mostly if we threaten "violence" theres no need to go any further as they accept if they carry on the behavior they will be dealt with
 
yep i do, there is nothing wrong with it and people who preach that they don't / think its cruel are daft in my opinion. They are big strong horses, a good smack wont hurt them, half the time they wont even feel it!

I use a smack as a training aid and it really works. not bothered if people disagree with me, i am experienced and know what does and doesnt work. for example i would never hit a horse that was nervous / shy / young. but older horses who really do know better and are just being downright naughty need a telling off!
 
My share horse was being naughty the other day , basically when i went to pick up his feet he would throw them around etc , nearly got me a few times! And he is BIG , he's a heavy horse so his feet at plate sized , and he's shod so him mucking around could lead to serious damage ! So with owners permission ( She was there and saw what was happening ) I whacked him on the shoulder. Also if he barges or doesn't respect my space while being handled he'll get a push , or if that fails a little smack.

Otherwise , when riding I always carry a crop and adopt a squeeze , kick , pony club kick/smack on the butt approach. If he starts napping he generally gets big kicks and a few smacks as he knows its naughty and I don't want it becoming a habit. If we're on the road and he starts playing up he'll get a smack on the butt as well because it's extra important for the safety of the drivers / us that he's under control. If he is being silly because he has spooked then I don't whip him obviously because that would just make things worse but if he's trying it on then you cant let him win.

The bottom line is the horse needs to know that the rider is in control for the safety of everyone involved and if that means he gets a smack when he's playing up and trying to see how much he can get away with then so be it.
 
I don't think anyone on here LIKES to hit a horse but some of us have dealt with far more than your average well behaved horse. They are not gloaating over the way they have dealt with a horse as someone stated earlier - but giving examples of situations where they have had to use a stick to back up their instruction.

There are times when a quick sharp slap with whip or hand will avert a possible damgerous situation or back up an instruction given resulting in reinforcing the correct response.

You cannot reason with a horse or explain why you want him to do something. All you can do is aim for the right response to your request - learned good habit. Once the good habit/response is learned then great - however bad habits/response are learned in exactly the same way usually the result of a rider/handler who is not positive in their instructions to the horse who then says - you are lower down the pecking order than me. eg Novice/nervous owner.
 
mystiandsunny said:
From a horse's point of view, the threat of violence in the herd is everyday. Actual violence is not, and is only issued by a sane individual if the clear warning has been ignored. The violence that actually arrives even then, is usually minimal. A similar reaction from humans they can understand, but violence without warning related to a specific behaviour, they do not. I would hope also, that if you would never give a stinging slap if a horse has not responded to warnings and is about to bite/kick you, that you only use the lightest of aids when riding. A kick or a harsh use of the spur is far worse than that!
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Ditto this ^

That is why the example of somebody walloping their horse on the bum to get out the way of a lorry when it has just refused to listen to 'quieter' aids (or any of the other examples given by sensible people on here), is totally different from the example of somebody leaving the arena at a competition after a bad time and then belting the horse when they are in the lorry park. Unfortunately I think that some people are thinking that those who have said 'yes I would' would do both of the above, whereas I'm sure 95% of people on this thread wouldn't dream of doing the latter as they know it'll achieve nothing.
 
Evelyn said:
I don't think anyone on here LIKES to hit a horse but some of us have dealt with far more than your average well behaved horse. They are not gloaating over the way they have dealt with a horse as someone stated earlier - but giving examples of situations where they have had to use a stick to back up their instruction.

There are times when a quick sharp slap with whip or hand will avert a possible damgerous situation or back up an instruction given resulting in reinforcing the correct response.

You cannot reason with a horse or explain why you want him to do something. All you can do is aim for the right response to your request - learned good habit. Once the good habit/response is learned then great - however bad habits/response are learned in exactly the same way usually the result of a rider/handler who is not positive in their instructions to the horse who then says - you are lower down the pecking order than me. eg Novice/nervous owner.
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iagree with this but what about those who do hit their horses after the event so the hors ehas no connection? To me that is temper and is wrong, i will slap my horses shoudler when hes beign horrid but for example a pony drags his owner around, gets loose - then is caught and beaten????
No connection so wrong
 
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