When WOULD you hit a horse? Or would you?

Tormenta said:
I think he sensed I had absolutely no idea of what he was supposed to be
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We had a very wild mare in once who to start with we couldn't touch the head end at all - till the day she died she hated with a passion having her nose touched. One day a young girl I taught walked up to where she was being kept and spent five minutes stroking her nose through the fence. We all were gobsmacked, and assumed that it was as you said - there had been no anticipation or anything at all from the girl, she'd just walked over to see if the horse was strokable (they're all used to have babies etc on the yard that might not be that sociable yet) and found it was. It wasn't to anybody else!

Slightly eerie P.S. to that little tale though, mare did have one foal before she died (not out to start a breeding debate), and recently as a yearling said foal was in the same pen with another yearling. For the time they'd been in for their jabs and foot trim etc the above mare's foal had been the more difficult to do, very reluctant to have much to do with anybody etc. Same girl, now not so young and certainly tall enough for a nervous animal to see her as a threat, went over to say hi to them and the reluctant foal was all over her. Must be in the genes.
 
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much-jittering said:
We had a very wild mare in once who to start with we couldn't touch the head end at all - till the day she died she hated with a passion having her nose touched. One day a young girl I taught walked up to where she was being kept and spent five minutes stroking her nose through the fence. We all were gobsmacked, and assumed that it was as you said - there had been no anticipation or anything at all from the girl, she'd just walked over to see if the horse was strokable (they're all used to have babies etc on the yard that might not be that sociable yet) and found it was. It wasn't to anybody else!

Slightly eerie P.S. to that little tale though, mare did have one foal before she died (not out to start a breeding debate), and recently as a yearling said foal was in the same pen with another yearling. For the time they'd been in for their jabs and foot trim etc the above mare's foal had been the more difficult to do, very reluctant to have much to do with anybody etc. Same girl, now not so young and certainly tall enough for a nervous animal to see her as a threat, went over to say hi to them and the reluctant foal was all over her. Must be in the genes.
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Awwww... bless. That's quite sweet.
 
Interesting debate - just as many-sided as the smacking children question!
I tend to side with those who say that the horse is looking for leadership - this is very true and many people just don't give their horses that leadership. They are very sweet and kind, and make sure that he has 20 different kinds of supplement, a rug for every type of weather and they fret and worry about his well being, but they fail to give him confidence.
Furthermore, they fail to react swiftly to the tiny misdemeanours the horse will display, until these tiny things grow into big things, and become a problem.

I don't like the idea of actually hitting a horse, just as I don't like the idea of hitting a child BUT if I was in charge of a horse that was bad mannered and bolshy I wouldn't hesitate to get him out of my space, and quick - it's no good trying to negotiate in these situations, you need to react quickly otherwise the horse won't connect the punishment with the crime! I prefer to swash them with something - end of the reins/rope/feed bag whatever is to hand as it is more about making them react than actually inflicting pain.
I also think that any punishment metered out should be done with a cool head and without getting emotional...
 
Lady La La said:
I can actually imagine it now...

I have a rather funny imagine in my head of a little shetland pony creeping around a stable yard (to the theme of Pink Panther) totally unaware that.. as he edges ever closer to scrumptious 500 bags of unsoaked sugarbeet and that illusive open door.. you are hiding, crouched down behind a bag of food, sweating and brandishing a rolling pin.

..thats made my weekend :D

Now, If you'll all excuse me, I have a dog to beat up. He's bound to do something wrong at somepoint this evening so I'll just batter him now and get the telling off over and done with.

Ciao :cool:
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I loved that vision La La, you made my evening. It was fun, just as I think you really meant it. Pink Panther would suit him, too!

For everyone who has questionned my sanity, this is far from the first time in my life that I've had that suggested, but definitely a first for kicking a Shetland's bum three times with a rubber boot and shouting at him. You'd think I'd cut his throat and hung him up alive by one foot to bleed dry before I ate him for lunch by the way some of you react :)

I'll just pop out now and stand on a bonfire so one of you can nip along and burn me at the stake :)
 
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fluffalina said:
Interesting debate - just as many-sided as the smacking children question!
I tend to side with those who say that the horse is looking for leadership - this is very true and many people just don't give their horses that leadership. They are very sweet and kind, and make sure that he has 20 different kinds of supplement, a rug for every type of weather and they fret and worry about his well being, but they fail to give him confidence.
Furthermore, they fail to react swiftly to the tiny misdemeanours the horse will display, until these tiny things grow into big things, and become a problem.

I don't like the idea of actually hitting a horse, just as I don't like the idea of hitting a child BUT if I was in charge of a horse that was bad mannered and bolshy I wouldn't hesitate to get him out of my space, and quick - it's no good trying to negotiate in these situations, you need to react quickly otherwise the horse won't connect the punishment with the crime! I prefer to swash them with something - end of the reins/rope/feed bag whatever is to hand as it is more about making them react than actually inflicting pain.
I also think that any punishment metered out should be done with a cool head and without getting emotional...
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Totally agree, people will provide all the love and care but omit to give the horse one of the most important things - leadership.

One of my mares came to me from abroad as a five year old, sweetest thing on four legs but totally lacking in confidence, to the point where you could not even raise your voice without her having a complete breakdown, she would nap and buck for England. She is a completely different horse now - and no I have never hit her, her 'naughtyness' was fear based. I have another (now 7yo) who is a dominant mare, I hit her only once when she first arrived, one short sharp smack across the chest (she ignored my signals to leave my space), never had to hit her again BUT was extremely black and white with her and did not give her an inch but praised her when she got it right, she arrived as a bolshy youngster and by the time she was 4 and ready to be backed she was a sweetheart (and still is), she still has an opinion on everything but knows me as her leader, in the hands of someone mamby pamby she would have been dangerous.

I guess what I am saying is that each horse is different and needs to be treated as such - too many people are afraid to move their goalposts to take this into account.
 
I haven't read all 347 pages, but all my horses over the years gave been pleasant, polite individuals, even if they weren't to start with, and I am not adverse to giving a sharp whack where necessary. None have ever been headshy or scared of me but all have respected me; even my husbands old 17.2 shire/ID who for 20 years had done his own thing and simply trampled anyone in his path. No amount of grrr-ing or fannying about with ground work would stop his door flattening ways but a few sessions of turning out and bringing in with a stout short stick soon made him aware of his boundaries.
 
Lazy horses get one, good & proper slap with the whip, and I expect that to be that! Due to me being a midget, if I get on anything remotely solid over about 12hh, they tend to be quite capable of turning a blind eye to me. So, if the ignorant beast decides that thats how the game shall be played, then fine. I ask nicely, I may ask again (a bit more firmly - giving benefit of the doubt!) and if no answer, then its a good sharp reminder that I'm NOT just there as a passenger!! I don't recall having to have to ask twice on many horses afterwards. May seem a little harsh but I'd rather ask once than have to use the whip to remind the horse every single time.

Stallion also got a slap the other day. Coming back onto the yard, he spotted a mare and as he's not long since finished covering for this year, his mind was well & trully elsewhere. It didn't stay there for long and I'd much rather avoid him running riot! He's a gem 99% of the time, and of course it's only in his nature, but that does not mean he can have his way all of the time, and safety has to come before being 'nice'!
 
"I loved that vision La La, you made my evening. It was fun, just as I think you really meant it. Pink Panther wuold suit him, too! "

It was intended as a giggle - my lame attempt to defuse the situation :rolleyes: :)

For what its worth, the kicking a shetland up the arse wasn't the issue I had, more the fact you would rather scare him than ensure your door was shut... BUT... I did take it a bit far, as per usual :rolleyes: and I certainly dont want to burn you at the stake :)
 
Lady La La said:
more the fact you would rather scare him than ensure your door was shut.
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Which is of course completely untrue and would indeed be stupid if it were the case.

It was the best I could do, short term, to resolve a problem with my husband's temporary dementia due to a massively reduced blood supply to his brain. What's more, it worked. He's a really intelligent little horse and he usually learns from one lesson, as he did this time. I also particularly loved the practicality of the people suggesting that I should throw out my husband of approaching 40 years. Because of course we all know that one tough little pony has to be more important than any human, don't we :rolleyes: ?
 
I still think the spring on the door would have been a better option...
Anyway, olive branch has been extended, do what you will with it :)
 
Lady La La said:
I still think the spring on the door would have been a better option...
Anyway, olive branch has been extended, do what you will with it :)
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I accept the olive branch in the spirit in which it was offered, but did you not read why a spring would not work? The work the that OH was doing in the room is dangerous in a closed spaces, because there is a massive lead acid battery bank full of sulphuric acid. He would prop the door open, to be safe. And then, just as he walked away for a few minutes and forgot to close it when it had no spring, would walk away from the propped open door, net result identical.

Much as people may like to think so, I am not stupid, and if it was simply a case of being able to guarantee that the door is never left open unattended for a minute, I would do so.

I would have thought, myself, that would go without saying, but I can see that it is a lot more fun for people to get over excited about the "unnecessary abuse" of one pony with a three inch thick coat.

The thing is, that I know how many people think Shetlands are awful creatures who they would never want to own in a month of Sundays. People who feel that way came to look at a horse I had for sale a year or so ago. They met him and said that they hated ShItlands (their term) with a vengeance, but that mine was lovely. (They didn't want to buy my horse.)

Now, how much of people's general hatred for Shetlands is that so many of them are nasty ill disciplined little beasts? And what I am doing with mine that is so terrible that he is safe with tiny children, he follows me everywhere when I am in the yard, and people who hate the breed love him????
 
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I LOVE Shetlands! We have a mini shetland at our yard - she is a complete angel. If I ever needed a companion for mine, it would definitely be the breed I would get. They are adorable creatures with the heart of a lion and the personality of a clown.
 
cptrayes said:
I kicked him on his big round furry bottom with a foot in a rubber boot three times while yelling my head off at him and waving my arms violently in his general direction.

He was uninjured in any way and he has been wary of the feed store ever since.

I am baffled what on earth all the fuss is about, do any of you really understand how tough a Shetland is and how difficult it would actually be to hurt them?
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You sound negligent for not ensuring the feedroom was secure from the pony.
Why was it wandering about loose to get in there ?
Heaven forbid it was my pony at your yard subjected to your treatment, for your negligence, i think i'd have decked you when i found out about it.
 
i do it to mine, a couple of times a year she just gets to up herself to be safe and needs bringing back down to earth. its not about her being submissive its about her coming back to being a pair with me and i could nag at her all the time and keep her down trodden but i prefer to handle her fairly and freely 99% of the time and then just remind her to respect my space very occasionally
 
marydoll said:
You sound negligent for not ensuring the feedroom was secure from the pony.
Why was it wandering about loose to get in there ?
Heaven forbid it was my pony at your yard subjected to your treatment, for your negligence, i think i'd have decked you when i found out about it.
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Oh read the posts before you comment will you? All your questions are answered in the previous posts, you preaching person. Meanwhile I'll just go climb back on my bonfire so you can pop along and tie me to the stake and burn me :)
 
cptrayes said:
Oh read the posts before you comment will you? All your questions are answered in the previous posts, you preaching person. Meanwhile I'll just go climb back on my bonfire so you can pop along and tie me to the stake and burn me :)
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Did read the posts, yep still sounds negligent, and yep shetlands still feel pain
This is an open forum, you posted and i commented, im not preaching and am entitled to voice my opinion.
 
So what would you propose that is a little more constructive than your violent little comment? You're entitled to make it, of course. But if you read what I wrote you paid precious little attention to it, didn't you?

What's your constructive suggestion: that I move house so the feed room is not off the yard; that I tie my Shetland up at all times that the door could possibly be in use (daylight); that I shoot my husband who accidentally left the door open because he happens to be human not a robot; that he works in a dangerous environment with a closer on the door when he needs to maintain the battery bank; that I keep the feed up a dangerous staircase in the hayloft so I can break my neck falling down it carrying buckets; that I build a new feed shed without planning consent and be told to knock it down because developments for horses will not be approved in the National Park in which I live; that I dismantle our wind turbine so I can have the space for feed bins; or all of those? Constructive suggestions please.

No, on the other hand, please don't. My Shetland, who was completely unharmed by the incident did, clever little fellow that he is, learn from the one lesson several months ago. He will now take several minutes before he even thinks about edging towards the open door, which gives me time to realise that the OH has made a mistake and get it shut.

Why on earth are people so determined to believe that some terrible harm has come to one tough little pony because one day, for 30 seconds, someone got after him with a welly boot and a shout? As I said earlier, from the strength of some of the reactions on here anyone would think I cut his throat and hung him up alive by one leg to bleed out before eating him for lunch.

Ooh, there's a thought. I was wondering what I could cook for the sister in law on Sunday :)
 
Yep that last post of yours just confirmed what an arrogant individual you are.
Your yard problems are yours to deal with not mine, and again begs the question of why the pony was loose in such a dangerous environment from your own description
Nobody woyld expect you to risk the lives of you or your family,but its ok to let the pony wander from your staement.
 
IHK said:
I find it surprising as well so many horses owned by H & H forum members (as well as biting and attacking) appear to want to throw themselves in front of lorries. I would have thought that would be fairly unusual.

Obviously these horses would have been got used to traffic before being ridden out on the roads and, of course, they would be schooled to the basic aids. Isn't it easier and safer to do a shoulder in towards the traffic rather than hit them which would raise their adrenalin and make the situation more dangerous?
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Used to traffic BEFORE going out on the road - how do you train your horses to deal with traffic?
 
Evelyn said:
Used to traffic BEFORE going out on the road - how do you train your horses to deal with traffic?
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Presumably you have to have a sample of every sort of vehicle you could possibly meet :p :D That also means that the yard is so full of vehicles, there is no chance of anything, human or equine getting near the feed room :D :D :D

We currently have two mares who until a week ago were scrapping on a regular basis, one 16.3 ID and a 16 Ardennes type, battering the heck out of each other. Nips and scrapes to both. I have hit horses and will hit them again, most of the time it is not necessary, but when a horse has come to us with bad manners, it will be taught to have/remember its manners. I can't abide bad mannered horses and will not have half a ton of horse walk over me, just because the previous owner has tried to discuss the issue with the animal.
 
cptrayes said:
So what would you propose that is a little more constructive than your violent little comment? You're entitled to make it, of course. But if you read what I wrote you paid precious little attention to it, didn't you?

What's your constructive suggestion: that I move house so the feed room is not off the yard; that I tie my Shetland up at all times that the door could possibly be in use (daylight); that I shoot my husband who accidentally left the door open because he happens to be human not a robot; that he works in a dangerous environment with a closer on the door when he needs to maintain the battery bank; that I keep the feed up a dangerous staircase in the hayloft so I can break my neck falling down it carrying buckets; that I build a new feed shed without planning consent and be told to knock it down because developments for horses will not be approved in the National Park in which I live; that I dismantle our wind turbine so I can have the space for feed bins; or all of those? Constructive suggestions please.

No, on the other hand, please don't. My Shetland, who was completely unharmed by the incident did, clever little fellow that he is, learn from the one lesson several months ago. He will now take several minutes before he even thinks about edging towards the open door, which gives me time to realise that the OH has made a mistake and get it shut.

Why on earth are people so determined to believe that some terrible harm has come to one tough little pony because one day, for 30 seconds, someone got after him with a welly boot and a shout? As I said earlier, from the strength of some of the reactions on here anyone would think I cut his throat and hung him up alive by one leg to bleed out before eating him for lunch.

Ooh, there's a thought. I was wondering what I could cook for the sister in law on Sunday :)
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To be honest to leave a pony wandering around in an area where there is a potential risk of him getting into the feed room because someone can't be bothered to shut the door is very poor horsemanship.

You were lucky he didn't get sick that time - you may not be so lucky next time. If you aren't able to store the feed so that its safe then why buy so much at a time. From experience storing feed stacked is a haven for mice & rats. They do love to nibble their way in then contaminate the whole bag.

Why would you store it in an area that stores dangerous stuff too? If you can't have a shed of your own, then build the shed within the shed and lock up the feed.

One day you may not be there when OH forgets to shut the door. He is an adult and should be more than capable of remembering to shut a door.

Using a stick to hit a horse constructively is one thing but kicking a horse from the ground is just bad temper. My friend has a lovely pony that has taken her three months working with to catch it. It has a steel toe cap size dent in it's rib cage were some b*****d kicked it.
 
marydoll said:
You sound negligent for not ensuring the feedroom was secure from the pony.
Why was it wandering about loose to get in there ?
Heaven forbid it was my pony at your yard subjected to your treatment, for your negligence, i think i'd have decked you when i found out about it.
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I don't think your open aggression and hostility has any place in this discussion and your holier that thou judgmental attitude is ridiculous.
 
Three out of four of my horses have been brought up with smacks they have the best manners ever not just me saying that. My fourth as been beaten to inch of his life and is really badly behaved not by me may i add hes now learning he only get a smack for bad behaviour There a place for a smack as long as its as soon as they have been naughty so they know what its for. I never have to smack my three horses now a dirty look or a cough is enough for them to know their over stepping the mark
 
lazybee said:
I don't think your open aggression and hostility has any place in this discussion and your holier that thou judgmental attitude is ridiculous.
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Its not holier than thou, its good practice, and the "deck you " was mild if i caught someone booting a pony of mine for their negligence,, mabe you need to examine your practices if you think retaliating with agression is wrong
when it seemed to be ok to meet it out to the pony .
Just incase you think i'm averse to using crops or sticks
I have no problem with the use of crops/ schooling sticks being used in training, but i do have if they are used to excess.
I am also not averse to taking a leadrope off a horses butt for invading my space
I do think its wrong to punish an animal for somethimg that is in its nature, and a pony with an open feedroom is like a moth to a flame.
I think its sad that you feel good practice is holier than thou, and yes we all make mistakes, but do something to fix it so it doesnt happen again
 
marydoll said:
Its not holier than thou, its good practice, and the "deck you " was mild if i caught someone booting a pony of mine for their negligence,, mabe you need to examine your practices if you think retaliating with agression is wrong
when it seemed to be ok to meet it out to the pony .
Just incase you think i'm averse to using crops or sticks
I have no problem with the use of crops/ schooling sticks being used in training, but i do have if they are used to excess.
I am also not averse to taking a leadrope off a horses butt for invading my space
I do think its wrong to punish an animal for somethimg that is in its nature, and a pony with an open feedroom is like a moth to a flame.
I think its sad that you feel good practice is holier than thou, and yes we all make mistakes, but do something to fix it so it doesnt happen again
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Meh.
 
Can we go back to a post on page 22 or thereabouts. Someone told a story about a stallion dragging someone out of a wheel chair and into its box where it trampled her.

I was first horrified by the tale, but as it expanded, I've come to a different view, notwithstanding I wouldn't like to see anyone hurt or killed.
But this stallion, known to be nasty. A stick kept near his door. The incident with this woman was apparently not an accident as someone had forgotten to close the top door. (was this Cptrayes old man, a serial door opener).

My point is that no wonder this stallion was nasty, kept in a box, top door shut people shouldn't keep any horse let alone a stallion in these conditions.

The responsibility for this horse and his conditions was the yard manager, who was the person who ended up being hurt.

Perhaps if the stallion had been treated more humainly in the first instance she would not have been hurt.

People very often are the architects of their own misfortune.
 
It has to be said that the majority of stallions lead a miserable life, shut up most of the time. It's bound to send some of them crazy.
 
Andy, can I just ask (geuinely out of interest), if, say, you got a new horse and it decided to test things out with you, as they sometimes do, and had a bite at you, what would you do?
 
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