When WOULD you hit a horse? Or would you?

tallyho! said:
What I don't get is everyone arguing about dangerous stallions, kicking shetlands but there's tb's out there getting whipped across the finishing line and no-one bats an eyelid.
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i think it was tea green who gave the long drawn out answer to this so saved me time! but the horses arent actually hit the whips are brushed against the horses to encourage them to try harder and they jockeys are watched for whip misuse.

i dont agree with every aspect of racing although the majority of the horses are treated well.
the issue is the thousands of thoroughbreds churned out every year for the sport, most of them slaughtered abandoned or mistreated when they lose their racing worth-some not even making it to the track and only a few get to be rehomed with lovely people. that however, is an entirely different issue.
 
lexiedhb said:
I think he was very unusual in his behaviour in that he could be sweetness and light one minute, then switch to satans horse the next- for no reason apparent to the human eye.
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In my experience these are the hardest horses to deal with.

I'd prefer handle a just plain nasty temperament as those can usually be improved as the anger usually (not always) stems from mistreatment, and they often learn to accept kindness.

Jekyll and Hyde characters are a very different kettle of fish, they are near on impossible to deal with. These horses don't suffer from mood swings but entire personality changes, moody horses are not a big problem.

I genuinely believe that in some very rare cases these horses do suffer from a form of psychosis.
 
team barney said:
In my experience these are the hardest horses to deal with.

I'd prefer handle a just plain nasty temperament as those can usually be improved as the anger usually (not always) stems from mistreatment, and they often learn to accept kindness.

Jekyll and Hyde characters are a very different kettle of fish, they are near on impossible to deal with. These horses don't suffer from mood swings but entire personality changes, moody horses are not a big problem.

I genuinely believe that in some very rare cases these horses do suffer from a form of psychosis.
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Yep- hence he was always walked with a whip- some days it was like walking a dog to the field- others you dodged teeth the whole way. Like you say so much easier to deal with just the one personality!
 
Ok, haven't got the energy to read all these pages, but has cptrays found a way to positively reinforce a horse to not go into the feed room yet? Because it CAN be done. The 20 sacks of feed she buys can also be found metal pony-proof containers (if the huge equestrian yards that don't have cats and have tiny feed rooms can manage it anyone can), or another home, should she so wish, which I suspect would be a lot more effective than kicking the pony up the bottom and thinking that will be effective against the lure of food for the rest of pony's life.

I'm still in the kick the ill husband up the bottom 3 times for failing to shut the door camp ;) :p

My position on the broad subject? I have smacked horses before, and I'm not proud about it. I will probably find cause to do it again someday. However I'd rather, wherever possible not use violence in training and handling horses. I do think its effective if done very correctly. I just think that it is so very over used by people making excuses about how necessary it is, and I have seen so many more examples of it done badly more than ever done well, by experienced horse people.

One of the most well respected horse people I know quoted to me that "violence is where knowledge ends". I don't know who she was quoting, but I agree very much with it. :) For me, horsemanship is a continual learning process and I've learnt so many more techniques now that I just don't have cause to use violence very often. I'm not saying I'll never use it again, and I'm sure everyone who is pro-smacking on here is of course naturally not of limited knowledge, and that they all use punishment as an effective tool, whilst knowing about and electing not to use other methods. Each to their own ;)
 
Naturally said:
Because it CAN be done.
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Tell us all how then, that it is possible to use a positive means of reinforcement to create a negative acting effect? How do you use positive reinforcement to teach any horse NOT to go somewhere? Put your money where your mouth is.
 
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Sure. Put very crudely, Make sure the food isn't accessible to the pony, even with the open door. Praise and Reward a.n. Other behaviour when pony goes towards door, maybe a stand in the doorway, maybe head in a different direction. Ignore all other behaviour.

If you really can't make it so that pony can't reward himself when in there, (not in the original brief but perhaps apparent now) you either need a damn sight more tempting (than the food inside) treat , a highly aversive and consistent punishment, or to remove temptation all together via a barrier other than a sometimes open door.
 
That is not training the pony not to go into the feed room, Naturally. It's training him to go somewhere else when you want him to, but it would not serve to make the feed room a negative place.

Don't feel too bad, no-one else has been able to suggest how to do it either. That's because it is, in fact, impossible to create a negative reaction to a place by using positive reinforcement, or I would have done it.

Neither have you or anyone else appeared to read what I have now written many times. I do not need "consistent punishment". ONE occasion has been enough to make him very hesitant about approaching the open door (ironically, other than when I am in there, when he will stand at the door watching me clean tack or, of course, put up feeds).

Can we shut up about this pony now, everyone must be SO bored with it and I need to get back on my broomstick :)
 
Tazhazzamoose said:
i think it was tea green who gave the long drawn out answer to this so saved me time! but the horses arent actually hit the whips are brushed against the horses to encourage them to try harder and they jockeys are watched for whip misuse.

i dont agree with every aspect of racing although the majority of the horses are treated well.
the issue is the thousands of thoroughbreds churned out every year for the sport, most of them slaughtered abandoned or mistreated when they lose their racing worth-some not even making it to the track and only a few get to be rehomed with lovely people. that however, is an entirely different issue.
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Pffffffffffffffffffffttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Absolute Bo888cks! Where did you read that?? The TIMES dear???

Aren't actually hit?? Have you ever worked on a NHY? You ever had to hibiscrub some missing fur and bleeding skin?? No?

I'm sorry no matter how well loved the horse or how well run the yard... I kept seeing blood coming off the track til I left in 1992. I can't imagine much has changed - everything is more expensive and the top bosses keep getting paid more. If anything the grooms care most about these horses. Once a jockey jumps on he's in it for the cup unless he's got his own stock. Not many are humane even though more these days are getting more savvy about these things... it's a business not a pet in racing.
 
You started, and continued it :p I suggested a perfectly adequate way of achieving the end goal.

Anyhoo, I must bid you good night and get back to my own broomstick, i'm sure I left it tied to a tree somewhere around here...
 
Most horses that have been responsibly trained from the startknow the meaning of the word "No", or even "BAAAAAAD Horse"

I once had a homebred terror, as a foal, the previous owner thought it was cute to have this little orange foal put his front feet on her shoulders, by the time he was a 3 year old 15hh brat it wasn't funny anymore, he was dangerous, I called him the Ginger Ninja for his accurate kicking, would go into attack mode, running at people with mouth open, ears flat, pawing, then spin and back up, this is the sort of instance where a smack is warranted, and turned out to be pretty useful. After a bit of training I could take him to a show and he was a big cuddly softy.

He didn't have a brain tumour, he just had no manners and a serious sense of entitlement and did actually need a smack. I saw him at shows a few years later, had a chat with the owner, said she he was still a big softy, so that was nice.

Keep in mind that no treatment we can dish out is as brutal as what they do to each other, the only difference is they don't do it in anger, sometimes hitting a horse is necessary, losing your rag is not.
 
*Decides to also get on her broomstick and fly away from this rather bizarre expo*
 
I can count the number of times I've hit a horse in my 23 years around them on a couple of fingers each of those times and I believe it was completely necessary.
I think on the odd occasion a proper smack at the right moment is useful as a repremaned or to prevent bad behaviour that may become dangerous.
 
Naturally - the quote you want is "violence begins where knowledge ends" and is from Charles de Knuffy.....
 
Brighteyes, I understand what you mean when talking about horses like mine, but they didn't start that way. People always assume that well behaved compliant horses somehow just appear, but it takes training.
Just spent a couple of hours with a horse that has had plenty of specialization training, but no foundation training so its back to the drawing board for him
In the horse only situation both our Arab and QH are quite high in the pecking order, locally and if they are turned in with others appear to take the lead. It's when they are being ridden or handled that they behave as they should having been trained to behave that way.
 
AndySpooner said:
Brighteyes, I understand what you mean when talking about horses like mine, but they didn't start that way. People always assume that well behaved compliant horses somehow just appear, but it takes training.
Just spent a couple of hours with a horse that has had plenty of specialization training, but no foundation training so its back to the drawing board for him
In the horse only situation both our Arab and QH are quite high in the pecking order, locally and if they are turned in with others appear to take the lead. It's when they are being ridden or handled that they behave as they should having been trained to behave that way.
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I agree there Andy.People assume that because you have a well mannered, well schooled pony/horse it is (to put it in the words of an aquaintance of mine) a ready brek pony.No one ever thinks of the amount of work that goes in to producing that type.
 
eahotson said:
I agree there Andy.People assume that because you have a well mannered, well schooled pony/horse it is (to put it in the words of an aquaintance of mine) a ready brek pony.No one ever thinks of the amount of work that goes in to producing that type.
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Horses are born with their temperaments, they can appear to change throughout their lives depending on the treatment they receive but the basic nature of the animal remains fundamentally the same.

When you have dealt with a lot of un-handled youngsters you realise that most of them are born incredibly compliant and only become awkward due to mishandling.

Some are born difficult and need very specialised handling, but these are rare. They have the potential to be very difficult animals but with correct management they can become useful partners.

Then there are those extremely rare creatures who are born schizophrenic. I have discussed this with equine behaviour experts and vets and they have mostly agreed that it is perfectly plausible for a horse to suffer from mental illness.
 
team barney said:
Horses are born with their temperaments, they can appear to change throughout their lives depending on the treatment they receive but the basic nature of the animal remains fundamentally the same.

When you have dealt with a lot of un-handled youngsters you realise that most of them are born incredibly compliant and only become awkward due to mishandling.

Some are born difficult and need very specialised handling, but these are rare. They have the potential to be very difficult animals but with correct management they can become useful partners.

Then there are those extremely rare creatures who are born schizophrenic. I have discussed this with equine behaviour experts and vets and they have mostly agreed that it is perfectly plausible for a horse to suffer from mental illness.
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Completely agree. It is extremely rare to find a truly nasty or psycho horse that has not been made that way by poor handling, but they DO exist. There are some horses out there tha are just born that way.
 
There have been a lot of thoughts aired on this thread and for the most part, has been interesting to see responses and situations. I was lucky enough to start out at a riding school that had upwards of 70 horses when I arrived and many more went in and out of those gates in the following 11 years.

I saw all sorts of horses and I am grateful not to have seen any like a few posters here describe. Horses that were simply nasty, differing personalities etc. I think the main difference with the ones that I knew were those that hadn't been disciplined in any manner and so they simply walked over you until they learned that wasn't the way to do it. - Join-Up was used a lot with the newer horses to the herd depending on the issues but that didn't mean a smack wasn't also given.

Most of the issues we saw came from novice owners that had bought an unsuitable horse and simply couldn;t see the danger they were putting themselves in. One instance was one pony that would barge over the top of you when bringing him in. His owner thought he knew it all and read various natural horsemanship books. A little knowledge was dangerous in this instance, I felt. One day the YO brought the pony in, and was amazed at the lack of manners. She gave the horse a smack and roared at him. Next day, owner brought him in and was delighted that pony was an angel to bring in. He wouldn't take on board our advice though.
Same pony on a hack with owners daughter would turn and bolt home. I started to ride him - simply because I was horseless and he needed exercise - well the pony tried twice to turn and I was quick enough to turn him back the same direction. I found him easy to ride and fun. Was I a good rider? God no. I was simply firm and consistant. After a few hacks, owners daughter took him out and managed to keep him out.

There was also the instance of my highland pony. She'd only arrived and I decided to do a bit of work with her. She was on livery to be backed and sold. One day she managed to escape from field and got into feed room. I had a headcollar and didn't know her well plus she barged over you, and kicked. The part of the feed room she was in simpy had cm space either side of her. Not enough space for my body! I couldn't get near her head and it was at that moment in a freezer munching on bags of happy hoof and chaff. Only safe way I could see to get her out was one whap on her rump with head collar - staying well back - pony gave a start, backed out and headcollar was put on safely.
It turns out she doesn't/didn't kick people and that was rumours but I didn't know that.
She also had a novice owner that bought her as an unhandled 3yr old because she was a "steady, highland pony".

This has turned into an essay so I'm stopping here. - I will say though, I'm always looking for other methods to add to my toolbox.
 
Horses might be born with a temperament but that can be 'spoilt' by humans imo.

Horses are not born with 'manners' towards humans or ready trained either.
I'm another who agrees with Andy Spooner on the work that goes into producing a quiet responsive horse is often overlooked. Luck doesn't come into it imo.

I am also one who believes that the majority of nasty horses are made not born and that a truly nasty horse born that way is very rare or there is a medical reason such as a brain tumour.
 
SophieLouBee said:
My horse gets a whack most days tbh, he's big, rude and takes the pee. He'll barge you right over if you don't assert yourself, I shout first, then failing that he gets a smack, and as hard as I belt him, it still must feel like a gnat on his giant ass anyways. I hold the whip with him when the farrier comes, and he usually gets at least one belt because, again, rude, and takes the farrier, tools and all with him when he goes. If we have all hell breaking loose, someone getting cornered over food etc, I get the lunge whip out and crack it.

Apart from him I don't need to really smack the others, they know as soon as my voice raises that I'v had quite enough as whatever is going on. When they have a tiff in the field I lean over the gate, give a menacing stare and shout 'OI', they all stop dead and pull the most sweet innocent faces, as if nothing was happening, then they skulk off and eat.

So yeah, I smack my horses, when they deserve it, and guess what, they all still think I'm their biological mother and follow me around the field like the pied piper! Love and respect go very well together! :D
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If you have to whack your horse daily, have you perhaps looked at your current training techniques and questioned why they're not working?

My youngster used to bite, kick, barge. The lot. I've never hit him or shouted at him and the behaviours have been trained out. The same for another horse I've worked with and friends who've used the same training method as me/or similar.
 
cptrayes said:
That is not training the pony not to go into the feed room, Naturally. It's training him to go somewhere else when you want him to, but it would not serve to make the feed room a negative place.

Don't feel too bad, no-one else has been able to suggest how to do it either. That's because it is, in fact, impossible to create a negative reaction to a place by using positive reinforcement, or I would have done it.

Neither have you or anyone else appeared to read what I have now written many times. I do not need "consistent punishment". ONE occasion has been enough to make him very hesitant about approaching the open door (ironically, other than when I am in there, when he will stand at the door watching me clean tack or, of course, put up feeds).

Can we shut up about this pony now, everyone must be SO bored with it and I need to get back on my broomstick :)
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I disagree with the statement which I've boldfaced.
We can use something called Counter Conditioning, with our horses. For example;

When I train my horse, I'm very limited as to where I can work. I have no school, or nowhere concrete, or no stable to work in. Just a choice of two-three fields, all full of grass, even the tying areas, there is grass within 4 feet of each 'non-grassy' bit.

My horse used to be very 'rude' with food. He used to not understand that he had to wait for it, for example if someone else had their tea, he'd paw, rear, kick. If another horse had a haynet, he'd break the tying rack and steal their hay. Whacking him could of perhaps solved it, but I chose to not use that, because in my experience, unless you're extremely good with timing, then I could of punished him for something totally different.

The first thing I wanted to do, was to teach him respect with food, so I began clicker training him, and used food to train him to respect it. He would bombard me if I entered the field with a treat and woudl chase me until he got it. Now, he knows he has to wait, and earn his treat. Just like someone has to earn their salary. They work hard, they earn the treat. It's much more positive and also an effective way to train because he is motivated by food, so I used the thing which motivated him most to get the most out of his work.

With hay situation, it used to be a nightmare, the moment I got him in, he'd run away and either run to the hayshed, or to a patch of grass. This is something we've been working on for a little while and now we've eradicated.

What I did was counter condition him, he got a choice. He could eat the grass, or he could stay with me and play with his favourite ring and earn treats if he worked hard. He would follow me if I had food, now he waits and will earn it. I have gotten him to respect me, food and his environment and also himself. He can eat the grass if he wants to, but he can train with me, he soon decided that training with me is more fun. For example this video of me training him to stand still, note he's not tied up, has no headcollar on, in his field, I have a bumbag of treats and can walk away from him and he waits, his treats are low in sugar, only given in small quantities and pasture mix nuts, nothing special which makes him go crazy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXVE6mDYSRU

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXVE6mDYSRU[/youtube]

I haven't got it on footage yet, but we've recently been working on fadign the clicker (i.e. he doesn't get rewarded AS often for these behaviours, he seems to do it now. It was the same with backing up, I decreased the rate of reinforcement because he now finds the behaviour 'rewarding'. He knows when to do it, and I tell him this).

If he doesn't, he gets 'Ah ah' which stops a unwanted behaviour. Throughout some of the scarier moments with him, I've been able to make a safe exit. I appreciate there are some situations where it is needed (i.e. you're stuck in a corner or no other alternative), but for other behaviours, I prefer to be a bt more patient, ignore behaviours I dislike and highly praise the ones I do like.
 
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in 41 years of horses - working traing free lance schooling working at HAPPA im proud that i dont hit horses - a post at beginning spoke about rearing - my mare reared and spunned and was classed as dangerous before i bought her - she was going blind!!!!! she was battered before i bought her - now the unrideable dangerous mare is a sweetie riden hacked out a gallop and jumped - sorry been bitten kicked barged but yep voice tone will change body language will change but will never hit a horse - they act for a reason its down to us to find out that reason - and more often its them saying im not happy - back sore saddle hurts bit hurts you put me to that jump wrong -or simply they have lost confidence - its down to us to sit back and think ok lets deal with this as a horse cause happily they are not machines and like humans they get it wrong lol :) xx
 
Lassiesuca yet again that is NOT an example of making a place (or a behaviour) a negative thing with positive reinforcement. It is an example of making a DIFFERENT behaviour a positive thing with positive reinforcement. It would do nothing to stop a horse doing a behaviour when you were not there to offer the alternative course of action. I could keep that particular pony from doing anything just by standing in the yard, because he so loves being near me when I am around.

I still maintain that it is impossible to create a negative reaction to a particular place with positive reinforcement.
 
aman and lassie here here for what you said - sorry to often children are taught if no responsne then whack it if it refuses hit it ( sorry did you ride that jump right did you ask the right questions)- my dream hopefully to come true soon is buy a young one straight of mum and raise a well mannered horse to show and ride - and not one hand will be raised - just by thinking horse by understanding them and treating the baby as a horse - as said its so so so rare a horse is born bad its the human interaction that turns them bad - micheal peace is my hero and we need more of him :)
 
babymare said:
in 41 years of horses - working traing free lance schooling working at HAPPA im proud that i dont hit horses - a post at beginning spoke about rearing - my mare reared and spunned and was classed as dangerous before i bought her - she was going blind!!!!! she was battered before i bought her - now the unrideable dangerous mare is a sweetie riden hacked out a gallop and jumped - sorry been bitten kicked barged but yep voice tone will change body language will change but will never hit a horse - they act for a reason its down to us to find out that reason - and more often its them saying im not happy - back sore saddle hurts bit hurts you put me to that jump wrong -or simply they have lost confidence - its down to us to sit back and think ok lets deal with this as a horse cause happily they are not machines and like humans they get it wrong lol :) xx
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Good for you! I agree also.

I think that 99% of all 'unwanted' incidences are the fault of the human/the horses environment. I saw someone on here said they 'Hit the horse to go over a bridge'. Yes, the horse did go over the bridge and I'm not saying it didn't, but did it go over through willingness or through the fear that he was going to get another clout?

Perhaps I'm not normal for wanting my horse to do things through willingness and seeing it's not scary, apposed to feeling obliged to in fear of the consequences. Not the way I want him to be raised.
 
cptrayes said:
Lassiesuca yet again that is NOT an example of making a place (or a behaviour) a negative thing with positive reinforcement. It is an example of making a DIFFERENT behaviour a positive thing with positive reinforcement. It would do nothing to stop a horse doing a behaviour when you were not there to offer the alternative course of action. I could keep that particular pony from doing anything just by standing in the yard, because he so loves being near me when I am around.

I still maintain that it is impossible to create a negative reaction to a particular place with positive reinforcement.
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Oh sorry I mis-read your statement.

No, but you can use positive reinforcement to make them chose something else :D
 
SophieLouBee said:
My horse gets a whack most days tbh, he's big, rude and takes the pee. He'll barge you right over if you don't assert yourself, I shout first, then failing that he gets a smack, and as hard as I belt him, it still must feel like a gnat on his giant ass anyways. I hold the whip with him when the farrier comes, and he usually gets at least one belt because, again, rude, and takes the farrier, tools and all with him when he goes. If we have all hell breaking loose, someone getting cornered over food etc, I get the lunge whip out and crack it.
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lassiesuca said:
If you have to whack your horse daily, have you perhaps looked at your current training techniques and questioned why they're not working?
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Have to agree. Even if good manners weren't instilled into him as a youngster it seems sad that he's doomed to be wolloped almost daily as part of his daily management.

And as for saying... "as hard as I belt him, it still must feel like a gnat on his giant ass anyways", bear in mind that a horse's skin is sensitive enough to feel a tiny fly land upon it.
 
This is another thing; without attacking anyone or their beliefs, perhaps we should stop hurling insults at one another and question our own motives, our horses behaviours and then the effects in the long run.

I was with someone once, who really hit their horse with a whip, it was really unpleasant to watch because all he did was put his head down. He was green, young and hadn't been taught anything before. It took him by surprise and she saw my face, I couldn't conceal my reaction, and she said ''Don't worry, it didn't hurt him, he probably didn't feel it''.

This is something I've heard from people before, or ''It did him no harm''. So if this is the case (whether it hurts or not is another debate), if you belief it does them no harm or doesn't hurt them, why do you use it as a means of punishment? I'm not condoning hurting them (quite the opposite) but it's interesting because then what would be the point if your aim was to let them know that was unwanted and they will punished for it?


Whether it hurts or not... hmm as Spyda has just so rightly said, hroses can feel a fly land on them. They are very sensitive, if we have a horse who has been schooled correctly, and has a light rider who uses very lightly in terms of contact and pressure, and is very subtle, and the horse responds, then it certainly raises the question about equine sensitivity. Of course, some respond differently like humans, it doesn't mean they still find it 'pleasant'.

I rode my trainers Andalusian, and it was the most important lesson I learnt about riding- to become aware of my own body language and the littlest difference or shift in my weight will start a new behaviour. What was meant to be a nice collected trot around the school, turned into me going through extended trot, then passage, then Spanish Walk finished by a Levade. It was amazing to ride, but I'd only asked for a trot! What I'd done, was I'd let my lower leg slide forward an inch, and that was the cue to extend, a little more forward, we were in passage. I bought my leg back, but this time too far, and we got Spanish walk. It's amazing how sensitive they become.
 
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