When WOULD you hit a horse? Or would you?

I would, if the horse put me, itself, or both of us in immediate danger. Never in anger (although I'm not going to say I never have done it, I'm human and I've lost my temper before, but it's not been often and I've always felt hideous about it afterwards), and NEVER what anyone could call a "beating". And a horse being a t*t but not actually endangering anyone would be firmly handled but not hit, as it rarely achieves anything in those circumstances.
 
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I am assuming you mean a full on hit, not a tickle or an open palmed slap.

I would hit any horse if our lives were in danger-I.e. The person who posted about a horse leaping in front of a car. My yearling did get an almighty smack, with a whip, when she stopped dead in the middle of a huge main road. Yes, it wasn't nice, but it was that or be hit by a car, probably killing harself, me and the people in the car. I did calm her at the other side of the road and we did a lot of work with traffic afterwards, but at that moment tbh I would have electrocuted her butt had it saved people's lives.

I totally condone people smacking when riding though-my OH does lose his temper and I
now make him get off and calm down. There is no reason ever to beat a horse for misbehaving in a school.

Again, though, if a horse was being so dangerous one or both of us were at risk of really serious harm, I would hit in that situation.

I think tbh it depends on the circumstances but as my general rule, I wouldn't hit unless lives were in danger or serious harm was about to happen. Xx
 
amandap said:
I've just picked this post out at random to illustarte a point.

Erm, so the horse is wrong for 'being cunning' or as I look at it learning that this person doesn't give clear, fair, guidance that makes sense to the horse.:confused: If a person is a novice then surely they don't know how to be with horses yet? Or are horses able to read human minds now?

I'm sorry but threads like this are so predictable... if 'it' (the horse) doesn't do what you want or is afraid of something and doesn't want to go forward or wants to run etc. etc. just belt it one and it will know what you want or 'do as it's told'! Yikes. Erm, perhaps the pain from the whip or whatever made it stop and wonder where to run next just long enough for you to get 'it' to do what you want that time... result. Or is it?
What happens next time and the next and the next... some humans seem to have the same problems over and over again with a string of horses. I suppose this is because the horses are all 'stupid'? :confused:

I may not be an eventer, show jumper, dressage diva or even good rider so just ignore my thinking cos I don't do much. I try to ask myself why my horse is behaving in a way that I think is potentially dangerous or if he/she is afraid or doesn't want to go somewhere. Do I need to look at diet (mineral imbalance for eg.) management (not enough turnout/too much grass, no mates/ trouble at yard etc.) MY TRAINING (the biggie for me) etc. etc.

I've just been skimming through Kelly Mark's book, 'Perfect Partners' and one thing she says to ask is 'how can I get my horse to WANT to do this?'
I don't know about some posters but I wouldn't want to do stuff for someone who just confused me with their moods, erratic training/rules or who regularly hits me. :confused:
I've worked very hard on myself to stay calm and not take behaviours personally so I can see more clearly what is going wrong rather than blame my horses, I'm very far from perfect and certainly don't have the best trained horses in the universe but they seem happy and so am I. ;)

I'm sure a horse in a solid, trusting and fair relationship will not hold the odd hit against the owner but that's the nature of horses, they are very forgiving and just want to get on with life.
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I really do wish we had a like button. You've summed up what I have been trying to say.
FDC
 
Sometimes I think people lack alternative strategies to hitting a horse. There have been times in the past when I have hit horses, where now I have a greater armoury of alternative solutions through experience. In other situations, I would still hit a horse, maybe in future I will have more tools to use, but we do have to deal with the world as it is, rather than as it ought to be, and if in the world as it is a horse is endangering itself or me or someone else and I can stop it with a smack, then so be it.

Anthropomorphising horses (or other animals) by calling them cunning, evil, etc etc is rarely helpful, I know we all do it in fun (well, most people do anyway) but people do need to remember that their animals are animals, not hairy people and that therefore we need to tailor our reactions accordingly.
 
The_Hooligan said:
Yes I would/have/will do again, rearing, knapping and kicking all result in a good hiding, Barging does to on some occasions, anyone that says otherwise talks *******s.
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^^^^^this^^^^^ but not if horse is re acting due to fear (although a whack can get his attention back on the handler.)
 
talkinghorse said:
Would you do the same with naughty children? Would you treat a dog this way? Why do it to a horse, when there are far more effective ways? Is is because they can't scream in pain? Or is it because you are a bully and know no better?
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If more children received a slap when they needed it, we would have less ill-mannered curs running around, making life hellish for decent people. I was slapped regularly as a child, frankly it did me no harm, and I feel I benefited from it, as I like to consider myself well mannered. I have taught many students who would have benefited from a similar upbringing!

As for dogs, I would roll a dog if it needed it, or rap it on the end of the nose. My own dogs are very respectful - I speak to be obeyed, and they know where the line is.
 
I have had to smack Charlie a few times over the last 12 years. He can be a really bolshy sod sometimes, especially when there is food involved!!

But I have only ever once really had to punish him hard. We were out hacking and whilst stopped for a min for one girl to catch her breath (she had to lead her horse back - long story). C lunged at the horse who was being led and I gave him 2/3 hard belts on his rump. Im sure he had his reasons but it was not acceptable behaviour whilst being ridden.

I now have a mare who has been spoilt and she is proving to be a real pain. She is sweet natured but can be bargey and rude when she doesnt get her own way. In the few months I have had her she has improved a lot, but much of this is down to laying down boundaries with a good slap! She recently reared and had a go at napping. Once again this was improved with a well timed smack. She now looks to me for leadership in difficult situations because I have shown her that I am in control and that she can trust my judgement and she no longer has to make all the decisions.

I believe smacking her has affected our relationship. It has strengthened it. She doesnt leave my side when im checking fencing/poo picking/weed pulling and comes cantering up the field when I appear at the gate.
 
I'd never hit, whip, kick, punch a horse as 'punishment' or to defend myself. Nor would I do it for any other reason (just incase you're left wondering :p)! There are better ways to manage any situation that may arise between a horse and a human being. 99% of the time confidence, body language, your voice and quick thinking can resolve a tricky situation. I try to avoid the other 1% occurring :D
 
Amaranta said:
Those posters who declare they would never hit a horse are obviously not used to dealing with horses other than their own, and as for the person who stated that horses don't hit each other, well she has never watched a herd and how they behave. Watch a lead mare with a bolshy youngster for instance, she will give cues and if they are not taken up it can become quite violent, this is how horses learn and anyone who says differently is not as experienced as they would like us to believe.
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^^ I have to say I have experience of this with my horses. My two are in a herd of 8 horses. My 18 year old bay Sammi, is the herd 'top dog'. My 3 year old coloured Rox, is very much so at the bottom of the pecking order.

Rox has an extravagant cheeky personality - always looking for fun (trouble :p ) and wanting to play. He goes above his station, he gets reprimanded - pure and simple. Be it Sammi chasing him, or threatening to kick/bite him, and sometimes (probably most of the time), physically being bitten or kicked. If it is not Sammi, it would be another member of the herd. They all put him in his place when he gets too much.

I have had Sammi for 15 years. When I got him he was very head shy and I had to earn his trust. When he steps out of line I usually resort to ignoring his behaviour, and he soon gets bored and behaves. If you shout or smack him, it just escalates the situation and makes matters worse. Having said that, if he goes over the boundaries too far, he will, and has, had a smack.

Rox on the other hand needs firm handling. He is at a young and impressionable age where he is constantly testing the boundaries. I do inhand showing with him and so I am very strict with his behaviour on the ground to enforce good manners.

I will not allow any sort of misbehaviour with Rox. He steps out of line he gets told - be it a growl, a 'no', shout, and/or slap on the chest/side. Someone tit-bitted him at one point and he became extremely bolshy and started to nip. I do not think it is acceptable to allow a horse to form a biting habit - it is dangerous. He got a sharp tap on the nose, and he hasn't done it since. He is not head shy at all, and it did not make him afraid of me - it taught him that nipping was unacceptable behaviour which I wasn't going to put up with. xx
 
Personally i think it depends on the horse and the situation.
My old appy was hit alot before i got him. Pretty much everyday, as he was aggressive. His handlers said that you had to match his agresson. I couldnt get them to understand that hitting him didnt work ( or he wouldnt still be trying to attack them at every chance. )
I have never hit him. Ive found that body language, good sensible handling, not being afraid of him have worked for him. I keep the number of people handling him to a minimum and those that do have to attend to him are instructed the best way to approach him.
On the other hand, my tb went through a bratty teenage phase as a 4/5 yr old, he got bolshy, and very nippy. This ended with him biting my boob ( bloody painful ). Im quite fond of having 2 boobs, not 1 and a bit, so he got a wallop and a " dont you dare do that to me again ". So far so good. He has perfect manners now.
Kx
 
Rudey said:
Rox on the other hand needs firm handling. He is at a young and impressionable age where he is constantly testing the boundaries. I do inhand showing with him and so I am very strict with his behaviour on the ground to enforce good manners.

I will not allow any sort of misbehaviour with Rox. He steps out of line he gets told - be it a growl, a 'no', shout, and/or slap on the chest/side. Someone tit-bitted him at one point and he became extremely bolshy and started to nip. I do not think it is acceptable to allow a horse to form a biting habit - it is dangerous. He got a sharp tap on the nose, and he hasn't done it since. He is not head shy at all, and it did not make him afraid of me - it taught him that nipping was unacceptable behaviour which I wasn't going to put up with. xx
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Now you see, from what I read of the OP I read it as the above sort of 'education' being excluded from the scenario they were asking about. Of course the above is perfectly acceptable. I answered the post as if it were asking about giving a horse a good 'spanking' for doing something.
 
On the rare occasion - I have had a few attack me in the field (not mine) and resorted to a headcollar hard in the face or backside and once has been enough as they then respected me and did not come at me. Horses need ot know that this behaviour is totally out of bounds and they will get a harsh response. Come up nicely and they get a ear scratch and fuss.

I have never had to hit any of mine hard over the years, apart from Stinky.
I have on occasion had to give a hard wallop to is Stinky. On the odd occasion he will barge and be a thug, I ask once, tell a second time and third time, he will get a hard wallop. He is a typical gypsy cob - full of cheek and fearless and highly intelligent and he knows not to push boundaries or he will get a thump.

I never leave a mark and do not beat him up, but sometimes a single hard visit from Mr Sticky is the only thing to get him to stay in line. Without his boundaries he is a very large cob and could be a real thug with no manners. He is now 7 and rarely needs a thump - a growl is normally all that is required if he starts being gypo thug horse.

Better the occasional reinforcement of manners than having him not able to be handled by kids etc and on the whole, a joy to own.

I have never had a horse that bit, kicked or was difficult on the ground but I will not tolerate this sort of behaviour and do a lot of manners training with them.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
So, for those of you that would NEVER hit a horse here is a scenario and I would be interested to know what you would do in the situation.

You take in a big solid warmblood mare for the owner who has had a car accident. The chap who transports the horse to you warns you that it has a reputation for being nasty. Livery is turn out with feed.
You turn the horse out with two other mares and later go to feed all three in the field. As you get to the gate the new mare charges the gate, ears flat back meaning to get you. There is no way she is going to let you get into that field although you could give her her feed at the gate and clamber over the fence to fed the other two but, what if she leaves her feed to come get you?

What would you do in this situation? This mare was not just threatening but meaning business and had she made contact she would have done serious damage.
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bring her in to feed.
 
AndySpooner said:
If a horse is really out to get you, I think that you've probably had it, if you think a stick or whip or whatever has saved you, the horse probably wasn't that serious.
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Sorry, but totally disagree with this ^

Maybe you just have been very lucky to never have to deal with some of the serious thugs of the equine world - and hey, thats great - plenty of others on here have also had a pretty stress free time.

Having had 1st hand experience of a very angry & unable to reason horse/pony, you would find anything to hand to fight back to try to extracate yourself.

I'm not a 'whip-wielding, head slapping type of person, in fact very much the opposite.
However, on SOME occasions WITH some thugs, then yes - remonstration has had to take place, and on rare occasions - defence with anything to hand has also occurred.
 
I dont ever carry a stick when I am on the ground with a horse and find that a good, hard, open handed slap on the underside of the tummy works wonders for serious misdemeanours like biting or kicking.

If I was happened to have a headcollar in my hand during a bolshy moment between two horses and I was in the middle I would certainly have no hesitation lashing out with said headcollar to save myself bruises!

As for riding - I always ride with a stick these days as my mare is a nappy cow and needs a bloody good wallop (one usually works!) when she decides that she wants to nap, spin, bugger off with me - no I am not going to start up fluffy conversation with her at that point!

Other than that - no I have never "laid into" a horse.
 
I find it amusing that some of the people who claim they would never hit a horse no matter the circumstance (I am talking full on attack mode here, no escape route available) are the same people who would defend/defended Linda Parelli's treatment of Barney and Pat Parelli's treatment of Catwalk, complete and utter hypocrites, go figure!

I would never hit my horses if they were being naughty/awkward or grumpy. But if I ever found my self faced with a horse in attack mode and I couldn't escape I would defend my self however possible. As I have said before horses like this are one in a trillion, unfortunately they are in some cases bred from :(
 
I love this forum, for a horse forum where people are supposed to like or even love horses here people are lining up to brag to one another about hitting their horses with whips and how good it is for the horse. One or two including their dogs and children among their hapless victims.
Why do some people miss the point and focus on completely the wrong thing. No wonder there are so many confused horses out there.
The horse that was looking for sandwiches wasn't dangerous, it was looking for food. People mistook his intentions. When I found out what was going on the horse had to be moved,not punished. Some people rewarded his interest in them by feeding him others were terrified by him, he didn't know which monkey was which. I don't need a piece of anyone's mind over that, and they can take their fleas with them.
People backing their horses into cars all over the place, nothing but a whip to save their life.
And what about the professional horse, he gets a crack because being a professional should know better.

You really couldn't make some of it up, fantastic.
 
Evelyn said:
Naughty children have not been disciplined sensibly since the mid 70's hence why we now have so many violent, disruptive, rude, dishonest bullies of kids and adults.

A smack never hurt anyone - it was a very sharp reminder that you had been told to either do or not do something. I really feel so sorry for teachers nowadays when they have to deal with the horrible offspring of people who say smacking your child is bullying - instead these children bully us by their obnoxious behavior.

You will NEVER stop the people who go overboard with laws against smacking. You just take away a parents freedom of choice as to how they wish to raise their children.

And yes I would hit a dog - I hit mine for growling at my nephew. He didn't ever do it again. I treat my animals in the same way they treat each other. I once had a very dominant spaniel bitch that challenged me one day, I pinned her down on the floor by her muzzle until she gave in - it took a while but from then on she did as I asked when asked. It is just the same way as an alpha dog would have treated her. I can growl at Serenity and she will generally behave herself but there have been times when she has carried on being a pain - usually by squashing me - then she gets a smack and knows I mean it. Putting her on the truck often involves a smack with the whip on the bum when she decides to plant herself.

I've worked with hundreds of horse - all have different disciplining requirements. Personality, the way they have been handled before you get them. The food they are on - the invironment they are in. All these things affect how a horse behaves.
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TBH, I do not have children, I can remember a board rubber being thrown at me as well as a tennis ball and bits of chalk by one teacher, I learnt far far more from the other teachers and had far more respect for them, that being said I don't feel it has done me any harm either. Most of the children I know are not smacked by their parents, they are not unruly, and are respectful and fantastic, they have been brought up with restricted privilages, such as no sleepover, early to bed, favourite toys/games taken away and of course that fantastic tactic the naughty step ;) they seem to understand this far better, and it works a lot more effectively. BUT...

You try telling a horse ' you're not going to the show tomorrow because you have been naughty' or a dog 'you're not having a walk tonight because you just tried to eat the cat!' Like they can compute the two with actions and consequences! A human can reason, animals can't (or can, but on a different level)

I had a bargy mare, she broke her door, and damn near flattened me, the third time she did it, i kneed her in the chest... HARD, she never did it again and I had asserted a boundry in one easy step, trying to take the time to teach her that would have been a nightmare and dangerous.

We have a Jack russel who picks on one of our springers (who is like nana out of Hook) she is a spoilt brat and yes, I give her a smack when she goes after him and he is just stood their minding his own.

My general techniques are far more gentle, but if the need arises and the behaviour is going to cause a danger then I will be harsh, Sometimes (like when the horse is about to splat you on a car) you don't have time to teach them over weeks! You just have to act, it is in the best interest of everyone.

But, horses, humans, dogs they all have individual natures and need individual handling, there is no 'one template for all situations' My mare ebony couldn't take it if you hit her, but if my younster tries any cr ap, he could deal with a clout if warrented.

1. Never repremand in anger

2. Learn to read the individual (horse, dog or human)

3. Learn to read situations and

4. react quickly and appropriately to the situation and the individual

5. Accept responsibility, don't just blame your animals

and if you want any more advice on how to be perfect with horses set up an 'ask andyspooner' thread... he never gets anything wrong ;) as such No 5 doesn't apply to him :D
 
Spyda said:
Now you see, from what I read of the OP I read it as the above sort of 'education' being excluded from the scenario they were asking about. Of course the above is perfectly acceptable. I answered the post as if it were asking about giving a horse a good 'spanking' for doing something.
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Ah I see. I guess that sums up the 'topic' pretty much.... how we as people interpret a subject. Starting from whether a smack is ever warranted or not, what you believe is an acceptable force, and what is the definition of a good ol' wallop..... As a classic example, you and I read this 'topic' differently.

I understood this thread as a case of 'when' do you hit your horse type thing. I hit, as in slap, Rox (as you describe very well) as education. He is the type of youngster that could become a massive handful if he was not reprimanded.

95% of the time he is very good to handle. I have people praise me for how well behaved he is for his age. This was achieved by a hell of a lot of handling and ground work - and definitiely not achieved by not punishing him when he stepped out of line.

By telling him off he learnt that his bolshy behaviour was not acceptable. This is reinforced on the other end of the scale by loads of praise when he does behave. Due to this type of handling, he learnt, and knows the difference between the two. Discipline and praise go hand in hand if you ask me.

On another note, I will say that a slap/smack/wallop delivered from a human to a horse, is not going to inflict a fraction of force or pain of when a horse in the field bites/kicks/double barrells another horse.

A 'beating' (as I define as excessive force in a situation) of course, is on a totally different level... xx
 
I think there is a huge difference between people who have handled 20 or 30 horses over 10 or 20 years and those who have handled 100s and 100s over a lifetime; and those who have handled horses in a typical livery situation and those who work in a professional aspect with horses. Reading this thread shows peoples experience (or lack of) with all sorts of horses ranges wildly and it's clear which camp each poster is in.

There are no right or wrong ways to deal with individual horses but I find it incredibly worrying that there seem to be so many people with absolutely zilch self-preservation!
 
Spring Feather said:
I think there is a huge difference between people who have handled 20 or 30 horses over 10 or 20 years and those who have handled 100s and 100s over a lifetime; and those who have handled horses in a typical livery situation and those who work in a professional aspect with horses. Reading this thread shows peoples experience (or lack of) with all sorts of horses ranges wildly and it's clear which camp each poster is in.

There are no right or wrong ways to deal with individual horses but I find it incredibly worrying that there seem to be so many people with absolutely zilch self-preservation!
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Good observation there ^ SF :)
 
To be honest I've always been very lucky with my horses, all bar one have always been very well behaved so I've never needed to resort to smacking. Only one of mine came to me extremely bolshy on the ground - he'd charge through me, tank off on the lead, try to kick / bite etc. you name it and he did it! BUT with him smacking him and getting annoyed would have made him worse as he was stressy with it. The only times I ever smacked him was on 2 occassions where he had pinned me against the stable wall! Rather than get crushed, smacking him to move over was the only way. One other time was when he properly tried to kick me - he got kicked back for that. I'll only get annoyed with a horse if he is genuinelly being nasty / dangerous towards me.
 
I would and I have. A smack or a dunt from my fist when it has been absolutely necessary. However, I find using my body is often enough of a warning with a sharp voice reprimand. I have had a mare challenge me down in the field and because it happened so quickly I stood my ground, suffice to say the Shetland that was in with her at the time hid behind me........:rolleyes:
 
yes i have- the most noted time when I looked down the yard and saw an empty wheelchair, and then heard screaming coming from a known nasty stallions box..... he had dragged her over the door and was proceeding to trample her- took me several wallops to even get him to acknowledge i was there, let alone stop pawing at the disabled lady on the floor.

So to all those who "never hit a horse" how exactly would you have resolved that situation? let him carry on until he got bored, and she was dead?
 
Enfys said:
I don't mean a slap when he's bitten you, or a "hey! buck your ideas up" tickle with a schooling whip, I mean a real "Oi, behave yourself!" type wallop.
Is it ever warranted?
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It would depend on the situation and the element of danger involved. Its a very difficult question to answer with either a yes or a no.

I've never been against smacking horses with a whip, they are big animals and trying to reason with them doesn't always work. Sometimes they need to be disciplined for the riders/handlers safety as much as their own.

On the other side of the coin I saw a 'friend' lose it totally with her horse and it left a very bitter taste in my mouth. It was a shameful exhibition of lack of anger management and she literally had to be pulled of the poor beast. She had a pacer and was trying to teach it not to pace in trot (if that's the right terminology) and it wouldn't do as she wanted so she jumped off it in the paddock in front of half the yard and basically beat the c**p out of it with her stick. She ended up actualyl having a nervous breakdown a minute following this and she was going through difficult problems at home but it wasn't a justifiable excuse in my opinon.
 
IHK said:
Out of interest Hooligan how often do your horses do these things? I don't carry a whip with any of my six and I've never had any of the problems you mention. Perhaps you're just unlucky.
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Yep you need to handle "hundreds of horses" to know what you're talking about. I don't think I'd argue with THIS lady.
 
Spyda said:
I'd never hit, whip, kick, punch a horse as 'punishment' or to defend myself. Nor would I do it for any other reason (just incase you're left wondering :p)! There are better ways to manage any situation that may arise between a horse and a human being. 99% of the time confidence, body language, your voice and quick thinking can resolve a tricky situation. I try to avoid the other 1% occurring :D
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As I see it, there is a difference between angry and frightened. Frightened will go over you and keep going. Angry will go over you and then come back to finish you off.
Frightened and angry is probably the most dangerous because the horse is fighting for his life in his eyes, but that scenario is probably the one most easily avoided - as you say, with forethought and commonsense.

As I said before, when incidents happen, you don't think, you naturally literally fight to survive, it is human nature, we want to live, instinct takes over. I don't care where the blame lies, who did what to whom, whether something should have been done that wasn't, or was done that should not have, at that very moment in time it has happened and if you want to learn from it you have to deal with it first.

I believe that it generally takes years of experience/training/observation, with many horses, in different situations to be capable of consciously tamping down your own instinct for survival when a 1000lb of horse is on the warpath. My own pathetic instinct is to get out of the way or at least protect myself, I might know what I should do but my body doesn't always do as it is told, like maybe I should jump up and down, wave my arms, make myself big when a horse rushes me. Nope, that sad old body of mine takes it upon itself to get the hell out of the way by whatever means available and sod what the brain thinks.
 
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Yes i would. When the situation warrants it.
I have a very nervous 4 year old part draft. I have only hit him once. Actually i didnt hit i kicked him. I was putting boots on him, and doing it nicely and gently and he cow kicked me, not only did he cow kick me but he got my hand. So i kicked him. He has NEVER kicked out again, not once not even a threaten.

I also have a fairly bolshy cob. He went for one of the mares in the field and then he came flying passed me and tried to double barrel my head. I didnt hit him. I chased him away, i probably spent about two hours chasing him away from me and the other horses, but that behavior has never repeated itself.


I too have bitten a horse, the kind of horse that lunges at anyone walking passed their stable. She did it too me one day and the angle was just perfect i turned my head and chomped down on her nose. She never went for me again.

Sometimes the situation warrents it.

I had to laugh, i was taking one of the horses out in hand and she barged me. I slapped her on the chest and a woman walking a very large doberman looked at me with wide eyes and said 'oh my god you are treating that horse like a dog' I took the time to explain to her what i did and why it was appropriate. She walked off nodding
 
If I am or someone else is in physical danger. So:

- if horse is on my foot, or about to tread on my foot.
- if horse has bitten or is about to bite.
- if horse is about to, or is kicking out
- if horse is trying to shove me out of the way (with body or head)
- if horse is trying to run off for grass

All of the above are done with my hand, a light stinging slap, and believe me it hurts me probably as much as it hurts them, but they get the point and it's a quick learning experience - after they've been with me a week or two I very rarely have to correct any horse on the safety front. I make sure it's within a second of the event or as it's acutally happening so they can connect what they did with the consequence, and none of them are scared of me or my hand afterwards. It's certainly nothing like as harsh as the punishment they deal out to each other!
 
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