When WOULD you hit a horse? Or would you?

[Enfys]

I find it surprising as well so many horses owned by H & H forum members (as well as biting and attacking) appear to want to throw themselves in front of lorries. I would have thought that would be fairly unusual. Considering there are what? Tens of thousands of registered members, then the percentage is actually minute, and presumably these are not all owned by members, merely incidents experienced over many years, about 30 in my case for a start.

Obviously these horses would have been got used to traffic before being ridden out on the roads and, of course, they would be schooled to the basic aids. Isn't it easier and safer to do a shoulder in towards the traffic rather than hit them which would raise their adrenalin and make the situation more dangerous?

In a perfect world, yes, but this world isn't perfect, or predictable. there could be a horse eating dandelion on the verge that particular day at that particular moment in time that is more distracting than a car or the rider on top. So many variables, it is hard to say "Oh, but they should be..." they might be, but things happen. A "hey, pay attention!" type reminder isn't going to ruin the horse.

My horses don't take a blind bit of notice of traffic, either beside them in the paddock or riding past them, what made my mare leap sideways down a 12' embankment into a drain was a sodding woodchuck crossing the road 30' away...terrifying apparently Nothing I could have done would have stopped her, even if I had time, and I didn't, one minute we are passing a tractor the size of a house dragging equipment the length of my barn, the next we are in mid air thinking "Oh crap, this is going to hurt!" This is a horse that I can get a sliding stop from, at a gallop, simply by raising my hand and shifting my weight. A trained horse is not an infallible one.

 

[La Fiaba]

I think it is also important to understand the difference between being aggressive and being assertive, some people do think they are one and the same.

Just yesterday, my mare bit her 2 week old filly on the ar5e because she was getting too close to another horse that was obviously saying 'get away'. Filly didn't understand, mum gave her a sharp telling to move out the way, filly avoided possibly getting hurt worse. (Mum then proceeded to give a very stern warning to other horse to stay away from her girl!) Sounds very similar to 'I gave my horse a smack with a whip because it was about to be hit by a lorry/fall down a ditch/squash me against a tree' etc doesn't it?

My horses (and probably most peoples on here) are given every oppurtunity to do the right thing without using violence. If a horse is repeatedly or excessively beaten for no reason then that is abuse plain and simple and we need to understand the difference.

 

[galaxy]

But, why are they 'grumpy?'
Horses and even humans generally (ime) are only grumpy when they're fed up, sore, feeling ill or generally unhappy... aka something is wrong! Horses of course can learn that humans might suddenly hit them or do something that hurts them or put them two feet away from their arch enemy in the field and learn to watch out behind, defend before attacked from humans or the horse. Once a horse sees how effective kicking out is at keeping humans away I believe it can quickly become a sort of default behaviour.... those horses that you daren't walk behind...

Said horse I was thinking about was a homebred out of a mare that shouldn't have been bred from. Apparently she was a nasty piece of work and bullied her foal until he was weaned. He is no where near as bad as his mum, and with some work is better than he was (he used to attack you when you tried to feed him), but he default is to lift a leg if if people are behind him (noone goes close) or go to nip if someone walks past his stable. There is nothing wrong with him (all checks done), he was just brought up badly by his mother.... But if you go "ah ah" or worst case a light slap if he lifts a leg, he remembers his manners and is fine. He is better than he was when his owner bought him 4 years ago when to be honest he was vile! He has never been beaten (we know full history) and we have never walloped him. For all his grumpiness he is sensitive to discipline.

Some horses can have these default behaviours you have to learn to live with. I know another mare that ALWAYS tries to bite you when you touch her girth area. She's quite old, came with a terribly fitting saddle. Her saddle now is perfect and back or sorted, but it's a ingrained reflex behaviour she has done for years because she used to expect pain. Yes that is terribly sad, and lots of time has been spent with her to make her disassociate it, she is always girthed very gently and slowly, but yet she still does it. Does that mean you just let her bite you? I don't think so. But we are always aware she is going to do it, and usually an "ah ah" as she swings her head around is enough to no get bitten.

Sometimes, no matter how much time you spend and no matter how many checks you do, you cannot rectify long ingrained behaviours.

 

[Ranyhyn]

I was saying only yesterday that there is a very find line between being the boss of a horse and bullying a horse.

No good is to be gained by brutalising and humiliating a horse, but the same is to be said for mollycoddling and spoiling. A true leader gains respect by always being fair. Some times in order to be fair you have to to dole out some harsh punishment. If a horse is truly misbehaving then a sharp, meaningful punishment should serve the purpose of letting them know that's not ok.

This said, every horse is an individual and if someone has already brutalised the horse you are dealing with, then the same processes of leadership do not work.

My Ed would have fought to the death if I had gone to him with the view to beating him for anything. It took a long while to read the signs, read his body language etc going into his stable his ears would be back, he'd lift a leg, stamp, flick his tail and do everything to tell me to get out of his face. However if I didn't bother him in any way he was fine. So I went in, groomed/tacked up and got on with it.

The one day I made the stupid mistake of mithering him (i hugged him round his neck) he reached over and picked me up by my thigh. I don't remember ever feeling pain like it.

Hitting him would never have solved his issues, at 12yo everything was too ingrained. And I truly believe had I gone in there bloody minded, he would have killed me. So we worked around it and found ways to still get done what I wanted without him feeling the need to fight.

 

[Spudlet]

The other thing is, it's all very well saying that a situation should have been avoided and nine times out of ten that's probably true, but when you are in that situation saying 'oh goodness, this shouldn't be happening, tut tut tut' is perhaps not the best reaction - you have to deal with the situation in front of you as it is, then try and learn from it afterwards and avoid it happening again.

A real example then:
I was out on a group hack, the route of which lead past a scarmbling track (you know, where people on motorbikes go round and round over humps and things). All a bit unnerving, but the horses knew it fairly well so normally they went past with a bit of looky looky and maybe some jogging.

On this day, one of the bikers was wheeling his machine down the bridlepath to the track, and he stood in the hedge for us. Unfortunately one of the other horses got freaked, and started backing up - right onto this guy. He had nowhere to go, the horse was not listening to leg aids, the rest of the group had gone on - it was just me, the lady on that horse in front of me, and one other ride escort. The lady was starting to panic, the biker was somewhat concerned (!) and someone was going to get hurt, so the escort told the lady to smack the horse, which she (eventually) did, which got him to step forward, and I then gave her a lead past the biker, which I had been unable to do before due to the position all the horses were standing in.

Now, should she have been on that horse? Probably not, but all riders were assessed before going out, so how could it be foreseen that this would happen? Should the rest of the ride have gone on like they did? Again probably not, but they had and that was that - they were gone, and there was no getting them back. The ride escort with them got into trouble over that I believe, but at that moment, the situation was as it was and needed to be dealt with. The route and the bike noise was known to all the horses, the horses were all well schooled, but despite all that things went wrong and someone was going to get hurt - the lady, the biker, and/or the horse when he landed on top of the bike. So in that situation, I consider a smack to be very much the lesser of two evils.

 

[Enfys]

It is not about problem V's non problem! Jesus christ! It is about learning to read and understand the INDIVIDUAL horse and the INDIVIDUAL situation and reacting ACCORDINGLY and APPROPRIATELY!

Amen to that.

 

[team barney]

yes i have- the most noted time when I looked down the yard and saw an empty wheelchair, and then heard screaming coming from a known nasty stallions box..... he had dragged her over the door and was proceeding to trample her- took me several wallops to even get him to acknowledge i was there, let alone stop pawing at the disabled lady on the floor.

I don't know who people can breed from horses like that. In my opinion only horses with the best of temperaments should be kept entire. There are far too many useless nasty stallions and colts out there how should be gelded. Instead they sit in stables/fields and breed countless foal each year from (usually) questionable quality mares. Breeding like this is a real hate of mine.

Better off gelded and being someones low level comp horse than polluting the equine gene pool.

I would geld any horse if it showed it's self to have a questionable temperament, regardless of talent bloodlines or colour. It could be the next Totilas or Arko, I don't care it's bits would be straight off!

I've seen the results of these stallion and they often get worse every generation, any quality goes but that dreadful temperament remains

Sorry rant over, it is just a real pet hate of mine.

 

[kickonchaps]

I have no qualms whatsoever about walloping my horse from the saddle if he's napping for no reason, and I emphasise the no reason part because I only do it if I know he's not in pain or genuinely scared. It's easy to tell which is which, because if I hit him and he's not being naughty, one way or another I will end up on the floor But if he's trying it on, he'll get on with it! Mostly I avoid situations where we'll have a falling out but if he chucks a tantrum just because I asked him to walk in front on a hack, he gets a good telling off!

He's generally very polite on the ground, but he does like to wander round when I'm trying to groom him - the obvious answer is to tie him up so he can't do this, but I admit to generally just getting out the way. One day getting ready for a competition I was just poopicking the stable before plaiting, hadn't tied him up yet, and as he walked round the back of me he knocked into me. I decided I wasn't putting up with it anymore and slapped him on the chest - he looked a bit shocked, stepped back and did the same again. This time I elbowed him twice in quick succession and yelled GET BACK, but because he was at the back of the box with me effectively trapping him against the wall, he panicked and ran over me, trampling my leg. I spent half an hour with an elevated, iced ankle trying to get the swelling down enough to compete. Lesson learnt - be consistent, and be clear.

The same horse lets me come into his stable while he's lying down, grab his neck and pull him over so he's flat out, and then sit on him, so he's clearly not scared of me, but he's certainly taught me a lot about managing tricky behaviour in a sensitive horse!

 

[cptrayes]

I suspect if Andy rushed up to his horse yelling and brandishing a whip it would not bat an eyelid because it's not used to its handler randomly inflicting pain on it. Horses become whip-shy because they are often punished for something they haven't done or understood.

If people are stupid enough to hit a horse for something it hasn't done or hasn't understood then they deserve what they get, even if the horse doesn't.

I doubt that you are right about Andy's horses because horses are flight animals and anything threatening and unusual will cause most horses to run.

Of course if you use a whip in the course of training, it is not random and the horse does understand, provided you have your timing right, that he is not to repeat the behaviour which has been punished. To say, as some people have, that a horse cannot learn from being hit is total and utter nonsense. It learns to avoid the behaviour it was doing immediately before, or while, it was hit.

 

[Lady La La]

I don't know who people can breed from horses like that. In my opinion only horses with the best of temperaments should be kept entire. There are far too many useless nasty stallions and colts out there how should be gelded. Instead they sit in stables/fields and breed countless foal each year from (usually) questionable quality mares. Breeding like this is a real hate of mine.

Better off gelded and being someones low level comp horse than polluting the equine gene pool.

I would geld any horse if it showed it's self to have a questionable temperament, regardless of talent bloodlines or colour. It could be the next Totilas or Arko, I don't care it's bits would be straight off!

I've seen the results of these stallion and they often get worse every generation, any quality goes but that dreadful temperament remains

Sorry rant over, it is just a real pet hate of mine.

I think thats another thread for another day

 

[cptrayes]

Can the no hitters please tell me, seriously, how they would train a ten hand Shetland to stay out of a feed store in case someone left the door open unattended by accident one day?

I cannot see how this can be done with positive reinforcement and I'd really like to know if I had any other alternative than to make the feed store a nasty place for him to be.

 

[Lady La La]

Can the no hitters please tell me, seriously, how they would train a ten hand Shetland to stay out of a feed store in case someone left the door open unattended by accident one day?

I cannot see how this can be done with positive reinforcement and I'd really like to know if I had any other alternative than to make the feed store a nasty place for him to be.

Not sure I agree with this - I wouldn't batter my shetland because some idiot left the feedshed door open and he helped himself to some food.

Surely the answer here to is to lead said shetland out of the feedshed and make sure the door is never left open again

Edited - Actually, hang on.. Are you saying that you have hit your shetland, in the feedshed, in order to make it seem like a 'nasty' place to him, just in case one day someone leaves the door open?? ..thats all kinds of wrong.

Edited again - You're joking and I just haven't realised, aren't you...

 

[M'n'M]

If I had a good reason such as risk ofinjury because a horse is misbehaving, then yeah, duh I'm going to whallop them! But I wouldn't do it without just cause

 

[cptrayes]

Can the people who believe that horses do not rely on violence between themselves tell me how they think horse DO communicate with each other? I can tell you from watching mine for hours that this is NOT the conversation:

Dobbin: That looks like a nice piece of grass you have there. I need that bit of grass more than you do, would you mind if I had it instead of you?

Blackie: Oh, OK then, feel free, be my guest.

The conversation goes like THIS:

Dobbin: I am mentally and physically stronger than you and I want that bit of grass you've got and if you do not move away from it peacefully I WILL hurt you if I have to.

Blackie: No, I want it.

Dobbin: I am warning you more strongly here by pushing you with my shoulder, and if I have to I WILL kick you or bite you.

It then goes one of two ways. Blackie gives in or Dobbin kicks or bites him.



Why else do you think horses are increasingly being kept in one-horse turnouts?

How else do you think they are communicating, other than with the threat, if rarely carried though, of violence?

Someone once gave a statistic that wild horses were "only" seen to behave violently 2% of the time. That's nearly half an hour a day. And it isn't in a half hour burst, it's in 15/20/30 second bursts all through the day. And when it isn't overt violence going on, the threat of it is still used by the stronger of two horses to get his own way.

Violence is a language that all preyed upon animals understand perfectly. I have no problem, from time to time, with speaking in that language to my horses.

 

[cptrayes]

Not sure I agree with this - I wouldn't batter my shetland because some idiot left the feedshed door open and he helped himself to some food.

Surely the answer here to is to lead said shetland out of the feedshed and make sure the door is never left open again

Edited - Actually, hang on.. Are you saying that you have hit your shetland, in the feedshed, in order to make it seem like a 'nasty' place to him, just in case one day someone leaves the door open?? ..thats all kinds of wrong.

Edited again - You're joking and I just haven't realised, aren't you...

That's exactly what I am saying and no I am not joking. Eating unsoaked sugar beat could kill him. And with the best will in the world, I cannot guarantee that door will always be shut, there is stuff in there that my OH needs to get to. I have tried to train him but he won't let me hit him and especially lately, while he has been ill, I found the door left open twice.

In case it ever happens again, I want the Shetland to feel that the feed room is a dangerous place to be. I have succeeded in that aim with one well timed "beating" when I meant to frighten the bejaysus out of him for being in there. He has never done it again since. It may save his life. It may already have saved his life twice.

Now, please can you tell me, anyone, how you would achieve the same result with only positive reinforcement?

Or would you just spend the rest of his life giving yourself the additional hassle of moving your feed store up a flight of stairs out of his way, even if it meant you ruptured your discs carrying 25kg sacks of food upstairs and broke your neck carrying buckets full of food down again?

 

[Indy]

I've got a shetland who has escaped and managed to sniff out the grain shed. The trick I found which cured her was to make sure to shut the door not to kick her arse from one end of Doncaster to the other.

 

[Spudlet]

I would give myself the hassle, frankly. Or store the feed in pony proof containers, for example in dustbins which can be easily and cheaply modified to be unopenable without opposable thumbs with a length of wire.

ETA also, there is a good chance that the pony will have learned not to go into the feedroom when you are about, not never to go in there at all. If you want to build an association with a place you need to remove yourself from the situation, so for example setting up a booby trap that will make a frightening noise when the door is opened or similar. Or better still, keep the door shut...

 

[much-jittering]

Really interesting coming back and reading this thread now it's grown 15+ pages since I last read it.

The thing that I'm seeing is that some of the 'never' people are making out that the people who have said 'yes' are habitually beating horses - and sitting and reading the thread I really don't think that's the case. I can't think of a single 'maybe/yes' post on this whole thread where it isn't perfectly clear that the person will only do it if it's warranted, will make allowances for a genuinely frightened horse etc etc. Nobody has come accross as somebody I wouldn't send a horse to because I think they'd be beaten up.

That is where the 'holier that thou' accusations come from - way back in the thread there was a comment along the lines of 'how can somebody who loves horses hit one', and that sort of thing just isn't helpful IMHO.

Hitting or not hitting horses is not the thing that makes you a better horseperson than somebody else, how good a horseperson you are is what makes that difference - based on the results you get, how you get them, and just how you are. More than one road to Rome and all that. Nobody is 100% right so nobody has the moral highground I'm afraid, and the people on this thread who've taken it (on either side of the arguement) have just made themselves look silly.

 

[aimeetb]

Interesting the way this thread has gone. There are two sorts of people it seems, those who have had serious problem horses to deal with and have found a way to do it that doesn't involve violence, and those who think violence is the only way.

Wonder whom the horses would choose?

Interesting the way this thread has gone. There are two sorts of people it seems, those who have had serious problem horses to deal with and have found a way to do it that doesn't involve violence, and those who think violence is the only way.

Wonder whom the horses would choose?

I do think this post is very short sighted and that you have conveniently neglected to recognise alot of people including myslef who have said that in any normal situation they would use any other method available to comunicate with their horse. I hardly think that those are the thoughts of someone who thinks violence is the only way.

My method with horses that i work on is to never lose my temper and to simply keep quietly and patiently asking then heavily praise the good both ridden and on the ground, I would rather be patient for hours with a horse to help it understand than get angry.

I have in the past taken advice and tried different methods and on accasions lost my temper but it doesnt work and I have had many a "conversation" with people who beat and shout at their horses for every little thing.

However, the only time I will smack a horse and I dont mean a little slap is as I said before if the horse attacks. If the horse is in pain or scared etc I believe and hope that I have a good enough eye and feel to know before it gets to the stage of it attacking me and as such I think most experienced horse people would know the difference and know when violence as you put it is required. If a horse does attack in aggression there is no excuse for that and it is not safe to allow it to go unchecked.

We have the pleasure of enjoying beautiful majestic animals who are also potential killers in the wrong hands that includes both people who beat their horses for everything turning them into aggressive and defensive animals and also the people who do not discipline their horses even for extreme behavior and turn them into aggressive, bolshy animals.

There is a 3rd group that you failed to mention, those that are sensible and straight down the middle and who use the correct level of discipline for the situation, these people generally (even after starting with a difficult horse) end up with happy well mannered horses and a relationship based on mutual respect. I believe that is what the horse would choose.

 

[Lady La La]

That's exactly what I am saying and no I am not joking. Eating unsoaked sugar beat could kill him. And with the best will in the world, I cannot guarantee that door will always be shut, there is stuff in there that my OH needs to get to. I have tried to train him but he won't let me hit him and especially lately, while he has been ill, I found the door left open twice.

In case it ever happens again, I want the Shetland to feel that the feed room is a dangerous place to be. I have succeeded in that aim with one well timed "beating" when I meant to frighten the bejaysus out of him for being in there. He has never done it again since. It may save his life.

Now, please can you tell me, anyone, how you would achieve the same result with only positive reinforcement?

Or would you just spend the rest of his life giving yourself the additional hassle of moving your feed store up a flight of stairs out of his way?

I think you're totally and utterly bonkers...

If you're going to whack your pony around to try and avoid possible situations that may occur if someone forgets something one day... you'll be constantly beating him up?

...and what about your other horses? Do you take them into your feed shed just to scare them? Unsoaked sugarbeet doesn't just kill shetlands...

May I suggest next time, instead of beating your poor shetland up to 'save' his life, you just make sure the feed shed door is closed?

A well timed smack can work wonders in certain situations, but hitting a pony because you can't keep your feed shed door closed is ridiculous...

 

[Queenbee]

Amen to that.

Just call me god

 

[tallyho!]

I think everything naughty should be given a good thwack! Including dogs and children. It never harmed me.... or the dog

 

[cptrayes]

I've got a shetland who has escaped and managed to sniff out the grain shed. The trick I found which cured her was to make sure to shut the door not to kick her arse from one end of Doncaster to the other.

So tell me what you would do if other people use the door and you cannot be absolutely certain to be there? ANYONE can do what you do if they have complete control over the door. I don't.

 

[Lady La La]

So tell me what you would do if other people use the door and you cannot be absolutely certain to be there? ANYONE can do what you do if they have complete control over the door. I don't.

Move your shetland. Dont beat him up. FFS?

 

[cptrayes]

I think you're totally and utterly bonkers...

If you're going to whack your pony around to try and avoid possible situations that may occur if someone forgets something one day... you'll be constantly beating him up?

...and what about your other horses? Do you take them into your feed shed just to scare them? Unsoaked sugarbeet doesn't just kill shetlands...

May I suggest next time, instead of beating your poor shetland up to 'save' his life, you just make sure the feed shed door is closed?

A well timed smack can work wonders in certain situations, but hitting a pony because you can't keep your feed shed door closed is ridiculous...

You aren't married are you La La? If you think you can 100% control what a husband does you have a sad awakening to come!

 

[cptrayes]

Move your shetland. Dont beat him up. FFS?

Why? He would have to live alone if I moved him, and he loves being in company. The other horses are in stables when they are on the yard, he is the yard hoover. I have no stable for him. What on EARTH was wrong with one lesson? You people are unreal

 

[amandap]

Can the no hitters please tell me, seriously, how they would train a ten hand Shetland to stay out of a feed store in case someone left the door open unattended by accident one day?

I cannot see how this can be done with positive reinforcement and I'd really like to know if I had any other alternative than to make the feed store a nasty place for him to be.

Lol! I'd say this might be asking for the impossible. I don't have a feed store but I wouldn't know how to train them not to go in if the opportunity arose, I'd just make sure they weren't around or I didn't forget the door.

Seriously though could you train him to stop at the door and wait? I don't use just positive reinforcement but clicker might work very well for this but I'm no clicker trainer either. Not much help am I lol. I need to think but I do think training to stop at the door and wait is the approach I'd take, just not sure how I'd train this specifically for this issue. The same as training 'stand' I think but I would definitely add the treat at the 'correct' time for this. You have the lure of grub to 'train' here...


The difficulty with trying to train this behaviour is that if he does get in before fully trained the reward is so strong it may well overide any training. lol
He may well have already learned very well that he can go in alone if the opportunity arises.

I have no idea how successful this could be but good luck. I think this is one I'd try and work around tbh though.
Hopefully someone has a good solution for you.

Mta. Just read back and seen about sugar beet etc. I would make sure he never got in I'm afraid. Training for something life threatening is taking a risk imo where food is concerned, people just have to be more aware and focussed or he must be put somewhere at feed times...

 

[lazybee]

I love this forum, for a horse forum where people are supposed to like or even love horses here people are lining up to brag to one another about hitting their horses with whips and how good it is for the horse. One or two including their dogs and children among their hapless victims.
Why do some people miss the point and focus on completely the wrong thing. No wonder there are so many confused horses out there.
The horse that was looking for sandwiches wasn't dangerous, it was looking for food. People mistook his intentions. When I found out what was going on the horse had to be moved,not punished. Some people rewarded his interest in them by feeding him others were terrified by him, he didn't know which monkey was which. I don't need a piece of anyone's mind over that, and they can take their fleas with them.
People backing their horses into cars all over the place, nothing but a whip to save their life.
And what about the professional horse, he gets a crack because being a professional should know better.

You really couldn't make some of it up, fantastic.

All hail the great oracle

 

[Wagtail]

Can the no hitters please tell me, seriously, how they would train a ten hand Shetland to stay out of a feed store in case someone left the door open unattended by accident one day?

I cannot see how this can be done with positive reinforcement and I'd really like to know if I had any other alternative than to make the feed store a nasty place for him to be.

I understand your thinking here, but I think you are acting completely irresponsibly by allowing the shetland ACCESS to the feed store in the first place. Why is he wandering around in the same area? Shouldn't the paddock be fenced off from the store? If not, all you need is some electric netting that you can step over, but little tubby tubs cannot. Far better than beating the poor little mite.

 

[cptrayes]

I would give myself the hassle, frankly. Or store the feed in pony proof containers, for example in dustbins which can be easily and cheaply modified to be unopenable without opposable thumbs with a length of wire.

ETA also, there is a good chance that the pony will have learned not to go into the feedroom when you are about, not never to go in there at all. If you want to build an association with a place you need to remove yourself from the situation, so for example setting up a booby trap that will make a frightening noise when the door is opened or similar. Or better still, keep the door shut...

I do not have the room to put up to 40 bags of horse food into containers. The pony cubes could be just as dangerous, if less likely to damage him.

Do none of you share your premises with people who are 100% to be trusted to close a door behind them???

I agree, a scare when I am not around would have been the next step, but it seems to be completely unnecessary, he's made the connection from one episode that physically did him not one jot of harm (for heaven's sake his coat was 3 inches thick at the time!!!) and mentally achieved exactly what I wanted it to.