When you're done with horses but horse is unsellable?

[paddy555]

Here is a different discussion that may be worth a separate thread, but here we are. The definition of ‘field sound’ and whether it is ethical to keep such a horse in retirement (presuming it is sound enough to be comfortable mooching around a field and feel no worse than a bit twingy if it happens to hoon around a bit). Personally I have pts such horses - sometimes those that may live for many years and probably will have some quality of life in that time. Mainly if I’m honest for my own reasons: the work involved and financial outlay. And because I can’t be sure of how comfortable they are - they can be so stoic.

On the other hand I would call into question the ‘better a month too soon than a day too late’ argument which I tend to disagree with, taken strictly as it is described. For example I know of a sweet horse, unrideable behaviourally and compromised physically, who had a glorious last summer with the sun on his back. His owner called it a day after perhaps three days of greater discomfort. I would argue that those three days were justifiable for the lovely few months he spent living happily.

I'm in the very fortunate position that my horses are at home and I always retire them. I have 5 retired ATM. As I have the resources to do so it would never occur to me not to although I really feel for people in this position.

I don't go for the month too soon bit. It becomes very obvious when the end comes and I get the vet out within a couple of hours. No thinking or planning. I don't box rest. Are they in pain for a short while then they very probably are but so is the horse with colic, an abscess, laminitis and many other problems yet they are not all PTS at the first sign of pain.


I also don't go for the PTS at the end of the summer argument because of the bad winter weather. If they were to struggle with winter weather I know they can be PTS within a couple of hours.
In fact mine found this summer with the 40degree heat, endless warm weather and flies far worst than any winter.

They don't struggle with winter. They are rugged, stabled and yarded at night or in the field depending on the weather. They get exactly the same care and routine as my ridden horses just that the lazy beasts don't have to do any work.

As far as pain goes then if anyone really really worried constantly about if a horse was in pain then they simply would never ride it because the rider, saddle, bridle, shoeing and anything else has the potential to cause pain. So if anyone rides (and I ride) they can never be sure they are not inflicting pain on the horse.


. As my retired horses are not forced to do any work they probably have a better chance of being painfree. If bute helps then they get that. If anything else did they would be provided with that as well. It seems acceptable to treat ridden horses with injections etc for arthritis. There are always threads about arthimid. So if someone is thinking of this, hock injections or other interventions so they can ride then the horse is in pain.

Before I get any sarcastic comments, as I do seem to on here, from the POV of "it's all right for some people if they have the land, can afford it etc etc etc. " then yes I repeat I realise I am very fortunate to be able to give my horses a good retirement, the decision many have to make is a very miserable one.

 

[ycbm]

Going though my profile just because you don’t like what your hearing the truth hurts . You wouldn’t put a dog down because it’s old and can’t go on long walks it hypocritical that it different for a horse . When you take on a horse you’re responsibility that you can care for them even you can’t ride them. Horse aren’t robots and people who can’t afford to keep into retirement shouldn’t own a horse regardless. Also slating rescues is completely out of line theses people decide there life to saving horses at least they aren’t irresponsible like some posters on this forum.

Your truth doesn't hurt at all because it's not the truth.
.

 

[Abacus]

Going though my profile just because you don’t like what your hearing the truth hurts . You wouldn’t put a dog down because it’s old and can’t go on long walks it hypocritical that it different for a horse . When you take on a horse you’re responsibility that you can care for them even you can’t ride them. Horse aren’t robots and people who can’t afford to keep into retirement shouldn’t own a horse regardless. Also slating rescues is completely out of line theses people decide there life to saving horses at least they aren’t irresponsible like some posters on this forum.

Wrong. We buy horses hoping for the best for their future and knowing at that point that we can afford them. They live a long time, and much can change in our lives in that time. As an example, 4 years ago my son was severely ill and, being self employed, I had to take time off work unpaid to care for him. I had one saleable horse; I sold him. If I had one retired in a field, I would have pts if I had to. I doubt anyone is in a position where they can say circumstances will never require them to make a tough decision about having a horse. (The boy is now fine and I’m paying through the nose for his own horse).

 

[ester]

There's plenty of terrible 'rescues' that I wouldn't let a horse of mine anywhere near so we can slate some of them

 

[lme]

For me this has been an interesting thread. My attitude is similar to Paddy’s. My retired horses are kept to the same standard as my in-work horses. I would hate to be in the position where I had to choose, and I am not sure I could. However I would never judge anyone for deciding to PTS.

 

[babymare]

A decade as a welfare officer cured me of Ever considering passing horses with problems on .

Having worked in one of biggest rescues in UK I totally agree with you Goldenstar.??????

 

[meleeka]

I'm in the very fortunate position that my horses are at home and I always retire them. I have 5 retired ATM. As I have the resources to do so it would never occur to me not to although I really feel for people in this position.

I don't go for the month too soon bit. It becomes very obvious when the end comes and I get the vet out within a couple of hours. No thinking or planning. I don't box rest. Are they in pain for a short while then they very probably are but so is the horse with colic, an abscess, laminitis and many other problems yet they are not all PTS at the first sign of pain.


I also don't go for the PTS at the end of the summer argument because of the bad winter weather. If they were to struggle with winter weather I know they can be PTS within a couple of hours.
In fact mine found this summer with the 40degree heat, endless warm weather and flies far worst than any winter.

They don't struggle with winter. They are rugged, stabled and yarded at night or in the field depending on the weather. They get exactly the same care and routine as my ridden horses just that the lazy beasts don't have to do any work.

As far as pain goes then if anyone really really worried constantly about if a horse was in pain then they simply would never ride it because the rider, saddle, bridle, shoeing and anything else has the potential to cause pain. So if anyone rides (and I ride) they can never be sure they are not inflicting pain on the horse.


. As my retired horses are not forced to do any work they probably have a better chance of being painfree. If bute helps then they get that. If anything else did they would be provided with that as well. It seems acceptable to treat ridden horses with injections etc for arthritis. There are always threads about arthimid. So if someone is thinking of this, hock injections or other interventions so they can ride then the horse is in pain.

Before I get any sarcastic comments, as I do seem to on here, from the POV of "it's all right for some people if they have the land, can afford it etc etc etc. " then yes I repeat I realise I am very fortunate to be able to give my horses a good retirement, the decision many have to make is a very miserable one.

This is how I feel too, but I’m pretty sure I’d feel differently if my oldies were in livery. I’m very fortunate to be able to keep them in the way I think best and not have to compromise because of yard rules, or because of cost. I have one oldie I’d never stable and another that does much better if in at night. At livery at least one of them wouldn’t be happy and comfortable. If I had to choose between rehome or PTS, I’d PTS every time. When I took them on and they got to the stage where they weren’t ridden, I knew they’d be with me for the rest of their lives, however long that is. It must be the worst feeling finding out an older horse has been passed around and neglected and that would be worse for me than making the decision to PTS.

 

[Birker2020]

But on the flip side, equally it’s in the BB’s interest to keep horses well and healthy. It’s there for a purpose…..

Exactly, its a business. Some of the horses have been there over a decade, or more. They have their feet trimmed and their teeth rasped. They need the horses to keep condition and live stress free so they can collect the blood volume. The horses are given a token feed when they give blood to ensure they are stress free and have a reward and presumably so they associate the blood giving with something nice in return. They know each of the horses by name and stringent records are kept of every animal, it has to be this way in order to meet the standards necessary for donor serum. I've seen posts on here by owners who sent their horses to blood banks and have rung up to enquire how they were doing and straight away the person said "oh that's so and so with the white blaze" or whatever. So they know the animals inside out.

I'm certainly not saying its a version of how you would keep your own horse, and its no horsey paradise, I certainly never claimed it was. It never can be in order to make it a profitable business but the serum from the blood is used for tissue culture scientists (whoever they are or what that means is beyond my understanding, presumably they culture things on petri dishes like viruses, etc) And above all its giving a chance at life. Its a choice. I'm sure I know what my horse would choose if he had the choice between euthanasia and a new life out with other horses, doing what horses do. That said I would never criticise anyone for having a horse pts if that's there only way out, but there are other options that some might appreciate knowing. I know BB is not suitable for OP's horse but I'm sick of hearing the BB slated all the time, it annoys me when its not justified.

Animal Welfare

Careful selection, free-range conditions, extensive good pasture and stringent veterinary supervision ensures healthy stock.

Blood collection is carried out in stress-free conditions by trained and qualified personnel in accordance with the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986. Veterinary health certificates are available upon request.

https://www.tcsbiosciences.co.uk/donor_horse_serum.php?genre=pharma

 

[Birker2020]

deleted

 

[Birker2020]

Before I get any sarcastic comments, as I do seem to on here, from the POV of "it's all right for some people if they have the land, can afford it etc etc etc. " then yes I repeat I realise I am very fortunate to be able to give my horses a good retirement, the decision many have to make is a very miserable one.

Paddy just so we are clear, my comment about it being totally different if someone has land to someone like myself in the position of being on a livery yard was certainly never intended to be 'sarcastic' or a dig at you or anyone else for that matter.

It was merely a statement suggesting that if I had my own land I'd keep the horse I adore forever, however I sadly don't and I cannot afford to keep two, much as I have considered it.

You are fortunate and I don't begrudge you at all. Good luck I say.

 

[Goldenstar]

Here is a different discussion that may be worth a separate thread, but here we are. The definition of ‘field sound’ and whether it is ethical to keep such a horse in retirement (presuming it is sound enough to be comfortable mooching around a field and feel no worse than a bit twingy if it happens to hoon around a bit). Personally I have pts such horses - sometimes those that may live for many years and probably will have some quality of life in that time. Mainly if I’m honest for my own reasons: the work involved and financial outlay. And because I can’t be sure of how comfortable they are - they can be so stoic.

On the other hand I would call into question the ‘better a month too soon than a day too late’ argument which I tend to disagree with, taken strictly as it is described. For example I know of a sweet horse, unrideable behaviourally and compromised physically, who had a glorious last summer with the sun on his back. His owner called it a day after perhaps three days of greater discomfort. I would argue that those three days were justifiable for the lovely few months he spent living happily.

On your final point I don’t think it matters if it’s a month to early but I do think it matters if the horse dies down on the ground having fallen in rain for example that sort of thing is what I am seeking to avoid .
Fatty is not sound if he gallops about he suffered a stifle injury when he was younger .
In the summer when his teeth went wrong I noticed he was quiet and ping it’s in your head I can’t let him go into next winter I was so sad however I smelt a nasty smell and luckily the six months dentals where already booked and that resulted in a trip to horspital and the removal of his lower front teeth.
He’s really perked up ,it take some time to get him over it but he definitely back to his normal self .
What I think is it’s hard to get it right all the time , and it would not have been wrong to Put Fatty to sleep .
The bill was in the end £2300 ( he had a bit of complication that required expensive drugs )would it have been unreasonable to say he’s been retired than more than half a decade it’s time .
I definitely would not have put a old horse who was difficult with vets and not trusting through the procedure .
I would not have put a young horse through it ( would not happen it’s an old horse condition ).
I still wonder if something is going to happen that means it was not worth him going through what was a nasty period after the procedure .
I know I am banging on about Fatty but this is what it’s like it’s a messy decision it’s more often than not like that .

 

[paddy555]

Paddy just so we are clear, my comment about it being totally different if someone has land to someone like myself in the position of being on a livery yard was certainly never intended to be 'sarcastic' or a dig at you or anyone else for that matter.

It was merely a statement suggesting that if I had my own land I'd keep the horse I adore forever, however I sadly don't and I cannot afford to keep two, much as I have considered it.

You are fortunate and I don't begrudge you at all. Good luck I say.

Birker the comment you have just replied to was not in any way aimed at you. It was aimed at some specific people who have sarcastically commented on me in the past on other threads but most definitely not you. I appreciate your problems with Lari and it is a situation I wouldn't like to be in. I'm really sorry you are in that position.

 

[Birker2020]

Going though my profile just because you don’t like what your hearing the truth hurts . You wouldn’t put a dog down because it’s old and can’t go on long walks it hypocritical that it different for a horse . When you take on a horse you’re responsibility that you can care for them even you can’t ride them. Horse aren’t robots and people who can’t afford to keep into retirement shouldn’t own a horse regardless. Also slating rescues is completely out of line theses people decide there life to saving horses at least they aren’t irresponsible like some posters on this forum.

I don't agree with this comment. It depends on the circumstances, it is not black and white. I had 17 years of fun with Bailey, she didn't owe me a thing, yet I would have kept her forever in retirement and she'd still be with me now had she not had a foot issue which meant euthanasia was the only option.

Lari I've owned for less than a year. I was sold a dream which has been nothing like and I have no happy memories or years, months or even weeks of fun with him and I owe him nothing in reality. I've ridden him 15 times in total, and each of those was fraught and he was incredibly tense each and every time because of his issues. But I love him and I will try to find a compromise which means that either he goes to the BB in the spring, he is pts or I find something to ride (a loan/possibly a riding lesson twice a week might be enough for me) and I can keep him where he is now and have him in my life always, which is really what I would like to do. I know Lari won't be the last horse I own and I will get another at some point as I will have finances to do so and so the dream isn't over and for now I can wait, but I really need to ride in order to satisfy my own self requirements and if that's selfish than so be in, it was the reason I spent so much money buying him in the first place.

 

[Birker2020]

Birker the comment you have just replied to was not in any way aimed at you. It was aimed at some specific people who have sarcastically commented on me in the past on other threads but most definitely not you. I appreciate your problems with Lari and it is a situation I wouldn't like to be in. I'm really sorry you are in that position.

No worries, thank you.

 

[Abacus]

On your final point I don’t think it matters if it’s a month to early but I do think it matters if the horse dies down on the ground having fallen in rain for example that sort of thing is what I am seeking to avoid .
Fatty is not sound if he gallops about he suffered a stifle injury when he was younger .
In the summer when his teeth went wrong I noticed he was quiet and ping it’s in your head I can’t let him go into next winter I was so sad however I smelt a nasty smell and luckily the six months dentals where already booked and that resulted in a trip to horspital and the removal of his lower front teeth.
He’s really perked up ,it take some time to get him over it but he definitely back to his normal self .
What I think is it’s hard to get it right all the time , and it would not have been wrong to Put Fatty to sleep .
The bill was in the end £2300 ( he had a bit of complication that required expensive drugs )would it have been unreasonable to say he’s been retired than more than half a decade it’s time .
I definitely would not have put a old horse who was difficult with vets and not trusting through the procedure .
I would not have put a young horse through it ( would not happen it’s an old horse condition ).
I still wonder if something is going to happen that means it was not worth him going through what was a nasty period after the procedure .
I know I am banging on about Fatty but this is what it’s like it’s a messy decision it’s more often than not like that .

Gosh yes. I didn’t mean waiting while a horse is seriously distressed or in agony is ok. As you say the situation will often be messy and unclear, leading to some delay while assessing and deciding.

 

[Goldenstar]

I also want to say when you as the owner has had enough it’s enough too many people make themselves extremely unhappy and even unwell with the stress and strain of dealing with an unwell horse .

 

[Cortez]

I also want to say when you as the owner has had enough it’s enough too many people make themselves extremely unhappy and even unwell with the stress and strain of dealing with an unwell horse .

It is also ok to put a horse down for financial reasons. I have seen several people begger themselves spending thousands on horses that will never recover or be rideable after treatment. Some treatments are either futile or so distressing for the horse that IMO it would be kinder to euthanise, and I include extended box rest in this.

 

[Gallop_Away]

For me "field sound" is a horse that can not stand up to ridden work but is content in the field and able to move around freely at a pace they choose without experiencing pain.

If pain relief or veterinary treatment is required I am happy to fund this, however I would prefer it was kept to a minimum in order to keep them comfortable and pain free. Not for financial reasons, but rather there is something that doesn't sit right with me about buting my horses up to their eyeballs to keep them somewhere near sound.

For me personally there is a line there, although not entirely clear as thankfully I am not in that situation (yet) but I think I will know it when it comes.

I also wouldn't be prepared to put mine through months of endless box rest. It is a thoroughly miserable affair for my horses who are turned out daily even in winter. I have box rested previously and would do so again for a short time for them to have treatment or an injury to heal, even if it was only that they become field sound at the end of the process. I wouldn't put them through months - a year of box rest however as I know my horses and I know how thoroughly miserable it would be for them.

As owners we all have our own morals of what we would be prepared to put our horses through. All we can do is try to do our best for our horses whatever that may be.

 

[Cortez]

I reiterate: field sound = not sound. It may mean that you don’t see the horse limping at walk, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. We may all have our own morals, but some people seem to have extremely underdeveloped ones, or else are very blinkered in what they choose to see.

 

[Birker2020]

I reiterate: field sound = not sound. It may mean that you don’t see the horse limping at walk, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. We may all have our own morals, but some people seem to have extremely underdeveloped ones, or else are very blinkered in what they choose to see.

I tend to go with my vets diagnosis, nothing to do with undeveloped morals or being blinkered. Lari was dancing around me in the paddock last night, had a few airs above the ground whilst I was moving his strip grazing. If he was feeling miserable he wouldn't be doing that, I'm glad that the SI and hock medication has helped him.

 

[NR88]

I reiterate: field sound = not sound. It may mean that you don’t see the horse limping at walk, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. We may all have our own morals, but some people seem to have extremely underdeveloped ones, or else are very blinkered in what they choose to see.

And a complete lack of understanding how prey animals behave let alone specifically equine behaviour ?

 

[Gallop_Away]

I reiterate: field sound = not sound. It may mean that you don’t see the horse limping at walk, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. We may all have our own morals, but some people seem to have extremely underdeveloped ones, or else are very blinkered in what they choose to see.

Agree that there are clearly issues there, however it then comes down to what my vet advises and what I can judge for myself from looking at my horses.

If my vet agrees that they are fine to be turned out and not in pain either because they are not being put under pressure through ridden work or it is managed through medication and/or treatment, then I am happy for them to remain retired to the field and as long as they still move happily and don't show signs of pain.

If my vet tells me that their pain levels won't be managed by small amounts of regular medication or that they are not going to stand up to even being retired to a field, or if it becomes clear that my horses are experiencing pain and not right in themselves, then they will be pts.

I am comfortable with that decision process and if that means a stranger on a forum wants to question my morals as an owner, then so be it.

 

[ycbm]

I make a point of sneaking up on Ludo to watch him when he doesn't realise I'm there. Today he jumped out of his skin when I said hello after watching him through his window.

By doing this last summer, I caught him head shaking to an extreme level in the paddock. He didn't ever do it when he knew I was there, he was distracted, pleased I hope, by my presence. I was able to work out that he was allergic to his feed and suffering from UV intolerance because of it.

It's not enough, I'm afraid, to know that your horse looks happy and well when you are there, it may only look that way because it's happy to see you.
.

 

[ycbm]

Unfortunately anyone with arthritis or a similar condition will tell you that no amount of drugs will remove the pain completely. I hear of vets telling owners that they can control the pain after colic surgery. Yeah, tell that to someone who had a C-section last week.
.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I make a point of sneaking up on Ludo to watch him when he doesn't realise I'm there. Today he jumped out of his skin when I said hello after watching him through his window.

By doing this last summer, I caught him head shaking to an extreme level in the paddock. He didn't ever do it when he knew I was there, he was distracted, pleased I hope, by my presence. I was able to work out that he was allergic to his feed and suffering from UV intolerance because of it.

It's not enough, I'm afraid, to know that your horse looks happy and well when you are there, it may only look that way because it's happy to see you.
.

Agree which is why again I would also trust my vets opinion on the matter along with my own instincts.

 

[Birker2020]

And a complete lack of understanding how prey animals behave let alone specifically equine behaviour ?

Oh well, we can't all be the font of all knowledge like you, can we now?
Talk about patronising.

 

[Birker2020]

Agree which is why again I would also trust my vets opinion on the matter along with my own instincts.

All along I've asked my vet if Lari would be a suitable candidate for retirement livery pain free and more recently blood bank pain free and he has said all along that he would be. He's never expressed any concern. The only issues come from riding him.

 

[NR88]

Oh well, we can't all be the font of all knowledge like you, can we now?
Talk about patronising.

Talk about ignorant.

 

[Birker2020]

Unfortunately anyone with arthritis or a similar condition will tell you that no amount of drugs will remove the pain completely. I hear of vets telling owners that they can control the pain after colic surgery. Yeah, tell that to someone who had a C-section last week.
.

Amazing how you think your own horse is pain free with spurs on its hocks because your vet has told you he is, yet for the rest of us whose vets have told us exactly the same thing about our own horses you cannot accept it.

Not very fair.

 

[Birker2020]

Talk about ignorant.

So I assume your walls are covered in certificates awarded to you for studies in horse behaviour and you are talking from experience of having studied horse behaviour. What exactly makes you the expert that you can tell me that keeping a horse in retirement is wrong. The same for GallopAway? How the heck do you know, are you physic or something. Do share.

You are entitled to your opinion but not at the expense of being rude and shoving it down our throats with your attitude which I find very offensive. And a complete lack of understanding how prey animals behave let alone specifically equine behaviour

For crying out loud, comments like this are just not necessary.