Who is responsible?

[Nari]

I would expect the insurance company to take this up rather than yu having to deal with it. Have you notified them yet?

 

[Auslander]

If you pay for livery services then a part of that is the yard providing safe and suitable fencing. If the horse has escaped before you could argue that the fencing isn't safe or suitable. There should definitely be some liability on the yard but this is just my opinion.

There is nothing wrong with 1.4m double strand electric fence - the problem here is a horse that habitually jumps fencing. I have every sympathy for the OP, it's an awful situation to find herself in - but it is not the yard owners fault (or anyone's fault). They provided fencing that is perfectly adequate for the majority of horses, and is perfectly safe. It's just very unfortunate that the OP's horse is one of the few who will jump out if the fancy takes them - there's nothing a yard owner can do to prevent a horse jumping out if it really wants to, other than spending a bloomin fortune building stallion fencing.

I had a horse here who decided that it was super fun to push through my hedges, which are 20ft high, 10ft wide, and have a ditch running through the middle. I found him in the mares field twice, causing a whole load of trouble. IN 5 years here, I've never had anything go through that hedge, and I didn't even think it was possible. The first time I put electric fence up all along his side, and the second time, after he went through the electrified fence, and battered through the hedge again - I put him in a field that was supposed to be resting, while his owner found another yard. I'm not going to re-fence an entire line of thick hedge, because one determined thug has figured out he can get through it, when it wouldn't occur to the other 11 horses here to even try!

 

[milliepops]

There is nothing wrong with 1.4m double strand electric fence - the problem here is a horse that habitually jumps fencing.

this ^^

I have one that jumps my 1.4m posts for fun, if she fancies a little jolly off she goes. to keep her in I need a cats cradle of electric fence, multiple rows of tape to create a much less appealing barrier than just a single upright. it's a pain in the bum but fortunately for me it's only my horses in the field so it doesn't matter. she'd be a nightmare at the yard where my ridden ones are, the paddocks there are all separated by the 3 foot plastic posts and a single strand of tape, completely unsuitable for her!

 

[Flyermc]

the yard will have to do everything reasonable practical to prevent harm. If its a business employing more than 5 people (i believe) these risk assessments should be written down and recorded. They should have a risk assessment for t/o including fencing which should be reviewed at regular intervals as aswell as after an accident, incident or near miss.

What im getting at, is that the fencing/field situation should have been reviewed after the first incident.

Did the YO do anything to reduce the harm that can be caused by field jumping after the first incident? was the fencing altered/upgraded, was the horse that caused the injury a known kicker? (eg you wouldnt t/o a horse thats a known kicker, next to a horse known for jumping fences)

Did the yard owner, do everything reasonably practical to prevent harm to your horse?

 

[Michen]

Horrid situation for you.

I wonder who would be liable if your horse had injured the horse it had jumped in with. All a very grey area but I don't think I'd be pursueing the YO unless you had asked for the horse not to be turned out until it was rectified.

And if I was the owner of the horses it kept jumping in with I'd be pretty hacked off something hadn't been done sooner.

 

[Winters100]

the yard will have to do everything reasonable practical to prevent harm. If its a business employing more than 5 people (i believe) these risk assessments should be written down and recorded. They should have a risk assessment for t/o including fencing which should be reviewed at regular intervals as aswell as after an accident, incident or near miss.

What im getting at, is that the fencing/field situation should have been reviewed after the first incident.

Did the YO do anything to reduce the harm that can be caused by field jumping after the first incident? was the fencing altered/upgraded, was the horse that caused the injury a known kicker? (eg you wouldnt t/o a horse thats a known kicker, next to a horse known for jumping fences)

Did the yard owner, do everything reasonably practical to prevent harm to your horse?

This sort of thing is exactly why I never want to live in the UK again. Common sense would dictate that if the owner could not foresee the danger then how could the yard owner. Regardless that any claim would likely be unsuccessful the yard owner can end up with months of stress, worry, legal fees because they did not write down a 'risk assessment' noting why they did not spend thousands on new fencing to contain one horse. Even if the costs are covered by their insurance the premium would rise upon renewal. It is a shame that people do not think of the consequences before making such claims. If it becomes common place then yards will simply stop offering turnout to horses who have once jumped the fence. Not a very nice thought.

 

[stormox]

If the fencing is adequate to keep the majority of horses in and OPs horse jumped it twice and was still turned out by OP only to jump it again I dont think the YO is responsible for the horses injuries at all!
Why do people always want to blame someone else? It was OPs action in turning the horse out that caused the injury.

 

[fusspot]

the yard will have to do everything reasonable practical to prevent harm. If its a business employing more than 5 people (i believe) these risk assessments should be written down and recorded. They should have a risk assessment for t/o including fencing which should be reviewed at regular intervals as aswell as after an accident, incident or near miss.

What im getting at, is that the fencing/field situation should have been reviewed after the first incident.

Did the YO do anything to reduce the harm that can be caused by field jumping after the first incident? was the fencing altered/upgraded, was the horse that caused the injury a known kicker? (eg you wouldnt t/o a horse thats a known kicker, next to a horse known for jumping fences)

Did the yard owner, do everything reasonably practical to prevent harm to your horse?

It is all well and good saying the above but it’s not always feasible. Nobody here knows the ins and outs of the yard...Is it a big Livery yard?.....Is it a small,private yard with not a huge amount of space.Not every yard has tons of turn out or has the space to distance fields,or lose field space by having double strip between.In some areas of the country a lot of land is being lost to building and the OP could be in one of those areas.Nobody knows how long the horse has been there...the yard could have been running for years with no issues at all and then you have a horse turn up that is a field jumper. The horse could have only been there for a couple of months and done it 3 times in a week....it could have been there for a few years and has suddenly for some reason started jumping out maybe due to a dislike of another horse.Unless a horse has been put in that position...you wouldn’t know if they are a kicker...it’s like saying somebody has an aggression issue for hitting out when somebody has come up to them being aggressive...unless it was physically seen...we don’t know...OP’s horse may have jumped in and started having a go at the horse in its field and the other did what most horses would do and retaliate with neither having ever lifted a leg before.


Yes if there is an obvious dislike and you have seen obvious issues on other occasions between the 2 horses then the yard owner does have a responsibility to put them in other fields well away but again...this may not always be feasible...but the OP would have grounds to go back to the YO and get full or part payment towards the bill.

Unfortunately as much as YO/YM’s will try to follow the rules and document everything, with horses being horses, they could then be accused of pen pushing trying to document everything rather than sorting the issues and seeing to the horses properly.

Sadly this is something that hasn’t been dealt with properly on either parties side after it had done it previously and really hope the OP‘s horse is on the road to recovery.

 

[holeymoley]

I agree with Amymays comment as it had happened before but the horse continued to be turned out. The only way around that would be if you were on full livery and unaware of them turning out in the same field, then you could go down the yard owner route of a claim.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I agree with Amymays comment as it had happened before but the horse continued to be turned out. The only way around that would be if you were on full livery and unaware of them turning out in the same field, then you could go down the yard owner route of a claim.

But OP says it was the yard staff who continued to turn out the horse in the same field, with, apparently, the same conditions. Everyone concerned, imo should have been able to foresee the possibility of serious injury to either OP's horse or one in the other field, that is the art of horse-keeping and YO is the one who is charging for the provision of care. I would speak to the ins company and ask for their advice. I would expect YO to have yard insurance for this eventuality.

 

[irishdraft]

Sorry to hear of your horses accident op personally I would always leave a decent gap between lines of electric fencing I wouldn't put my horse in a field which didn't have this but I appreciate not all places can do this . However I would have taken responsibility for my own horse and spoken to yo after the first time if nothing could have been done i would have looked at alternative arrangements.

 

[Red-1]

I feel sorry for YOs here.

My Jay was a jumper. he was not anxious or distressed, he would jump to a different field for a bit of shade, jump back for. drink etc etc. No problem to him stroll, trot, jump, graze.

He did it at the very professional set up he lived at before. They just turned him into the nearest field and went to find him at the end of the day. He didn't go far.

I initially tried to contain him by raising all fences. 6' didn't do it, he tried, hit the top and the fence fell, making a fine mess.

I guess an owner (in the same situation as OP's) COULD say I was negligent, as... I knew the horse would jump and I made a fence that would be likely to trip the horse up. I could have foreseen that the horse could attempt the big fence, with a higher risk of injury.

The way to contain the horse was to have a 6'6 outer double fence, with lower fencing within a couple of areas that I didn't mind him going (main field split into 3). The lower fence between enclosures was 90cm, so he could pop in and out, feeling the freedom, whilst safe.

I'm not sure that many livery yards would be in a position to facilitate this!

Even if they did, an owner COULD then say that I knew the horse sometimes jumped, made an inviting fence between paddocks, thus encouraging jumping! So, if/when the horse jumped and mis-timed the jump, I would then be liable for any injuries done.

Legal system has gone mad!

I would have said a huuuuge hedge would be a safe bet, but reading up thread, someone has disproved that one too!

The horse is not acting as 9/10 horses would. If OP wants a cast iron guarantee that the horse won't be in danger from jumping out, or attempting to do so, then the horse would need to be in a cage.

I do think that the yard would be liable if they had not made OP aware of the situation. But, OP knew, and by the sounds of it OP turned the horse out themselves at the weekend (5 day livery), obviously accepting the situation. I simply can't see how the yard is at fault, unless you think that they need to say the horse has to be stabled 24/7 with bars?

For the sake of the other horses, obviously the same situation can't continue. Op will have to come up with a solution, assuming the horse makes a recovery. It sounds like OP has a workable solution with different fields already in mind, but hadn't mentioned it yo the YO.

I hope the horse recovers, the workable solution is put into place and all settles down.

OP, if it helps, I felt awful when Jay 1. jumped out initially and then 2. when my bigger fencing caused him even more grief! With horses, stuff happens, even with the best will in the world.

Finding a solution may take a couple of goes, good luck with finding one that suits both you and the yard. If you try to hold the yard responsible for £££ then I guess you will be looking for a new one though. If a solution is possible at this one, I would think carefully before claiming. I dare say they are also devastated that your horse was so seriously injured, when before the jumping was merely an inconvenience. I would imagine your request to re-jig the turnout arrangements would be well received now.

 

[holeymoley]

But OP says it was the yard staff who continued to turn out the horse in the same field, with, apparently, the same conditions. Everyone concerned, imo should have been able to foresee the possibility of serious injury to either OP's horse or one in the other field, that is the art of horse-keeping and YO is the one who is charging for the provision of care. I would speak to the ins company and ask for their advice. I would expect YO to have yard insurance for this eventuality.

Ah, I didn’t read the rest of the post. Assuming Op has replied at some point stating it was yard staff turning out. In which case surely the yard staff has/have mentioned concerns to yo? In which case they would still be at least partially responsible. I suppose it does also depend whether Op knew about the previous jump outs and whether or not agreed that the horse was turned back out or not.

 

[tristar]

Until the horse skids into it and stakes itself on a broken post. Or tries to jump it, doesn’t make the height, turns over and breaks neck on impact. Both of which I’ve seen.

Honestly these posts aren’t helpful. Horses injure themselves in all sorts of ways. I do think plastic posts and tape are less than ideal but they are a widely accepted fencing in many equine circles.

totally agree with this, i came to the same conclusion, and use two fences spaced apart of electric on plastic or wood with breakable tape.

 

[tristar]

there was a pic in horse and hound, i think, ages ago of an escaping show jumper , he was jumping something like a 6 ft 6 wooden fence to go walkabout

 

[sport horse]

One of mine jumped over a 6' 6" post & rail fence out of a corrale not much bigger than a very large stable so no run up! She is a great show jumper.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

But OP says it was the yard staff who continued to turn out the horse in the same field, with, apparently, the same conditions. Everyone concerned, imo should have been able to foresee the possibility of serious injury to either OP's horse or one in the other field, that is the art of horse-keeping and YO is the one who is charging for the provision of care. I would speak to the ins company and ask for their advice. I would expect YO to have yard insurance for this eventuality.

Ok, but did the OP approach the yard staff and say something along the lines of, "Hey, my horse is jumping over the fence, don't turn him out until we figure out a solution." OP then immediately goes to YO to collaborate and work out a solution.

I'd rather my horse stay in a day or two or be limited to say, an hour or so of supervised turnout, than risk the safety of everyone while I figure things out.

To me, what you see is what you get. So yard offers x type of fencing, if I want or need a different type of fencing I approach the yard owner and we discuss it. It's possible that I may have to supply the material and some labor.
Yes the YO has some responsibility toward the care of animals on her property, but the OP's horse can also be considered an "outlier" in that the typical, average, and every other equine is kept in my this adequate fencing.
So the YO may meet the standards of what is considered to be "adequate care" this horse needs more than that. Therefore the standard for this horse is different. It is also on the owner to be an advocate for their horse. So again, this brings me
back to it being a joint effort.

I do think it is best left to the insurance companies, but no insurance company ever wants to pay (atleast here, IME) so it is likely they might try the blame game. So have all of your facts in a row.

We had a situation here that was quite similar, but ultimately the blame was on the owner who was using the property "at her own risk" and knew of the status of the fence between the two paddocks and did not expressly state that her horse could not go there or that it was of concern. However, different country, different laws, and everything is your fault here


OP, I am so sorry you are in this situation. I do hope the best for everyone involved, both horse and human.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I don’t know whether I’m just very old school in my thinking, but I really don’t understand this blame culture when it comes to horses.

Sometimes horses will fight, some will field hop, others will rip rugs, in the majority of situations I would say that’s just horses for you and it’s on the owner to suck up the costs and/or have adequate insurance to cover such accidents.

In OP’s situation the only way I could see them having any hope of recompense was if they’d explicitly said not to turn the horse out after the previous incident. By not addressing the situation it would likely be deemed that you were accepting of how the yard were handling things.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Not that it affects the principles of the situation, but the injury to the OPs horse does sound nasty. There is another thread about it.

 

[Ish2020]

Horse will injured themselves and do stupid things that’s just life. Also the equestrian world has really turned into blame culture people seem to be suing right laft and center nowadays . I don’t think anyone is responsible for this accident at the end of the day you stayed in a yard nowing your horse can jump the fence . I don’t think you have a leg to stand on . it also no worth ruining your reputation because everyone in that area will now and plus it could affect you getting into other yards . I hope you horse recovers .

 

[SO1]

This situation is made complicated by the fact it is not just OP horse that is jumping into the other field.

It may not OP horse that is the problem. If her field mates jumps into the other field & her horse not wanting to be left on its own follows the other horse & jumps it. If both horses have jumped out 3 times is there something frightening them or not adequate grazing or mares in season flirting along the fencelines.

I have a pony that doesn't respect electric fencing he is after more grass. He liked to go into the mares field as it had more grass & they all got on well. Mainly when he gets out it is into a rested field. I accept that if he gets injured due to escapism that is not YO fault unless perhaps they don't energise the fence. His main field is now next to a rested field with no other horses which is the winter field for his little group.

You were lucky that horses in the other field didn't also get injured.

What does your fieldmate think as her horse has also been jumping out?